[xwiki-devs] [VOTE] Stop bundling the Statistics Application by default in XE
Hi devs, Since statistics are disabled by default, I'm proposing to not bundle the Statistics application by default. Admins who want to enable stats on their would need to install it through the EM. In addition, the Stats app's quality is not exactly perfect either and performances are not that great so I think it makes sense to not promote it too much either. Last, since 5.3M2 the stats app is now visible in the Applications Panel (for Admins), thus not bundling it by default seems even more needed now IMO. WDYT? Thanks -Vincent
I would be more than happy to get rid of that module but it's not that easy. This is not a component, not even a plugin and you have for example a public XWikiStatsService getStatsService(XWikiContext context) method in com.xpn.xwiki.XWiki which is responsible for lazy initialization of that service. On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Vincent Massol <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi devs,
Since statistics are disabled by default, I'm proposing to not bundle the Statistics application by default. Admins who want to enable stats on their would need to install it through the EM.
In addition, the Stats app's quality is not exactly perfect either and performances are not that great so I think it makes sense to not promote it too much either.
Last, since 5.3M2 the stats app is now visible in the Applications Panel (for Admins), thus not bundling it by default seems even more needed now IMO.
WDYT?
Thanks -Vincent _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Thomas Mortagne
Thomas, I didn't talk about stats module but about the Stats **application**. Thanks -Vincent On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Thomas Mortagne <[email protected]
wrote:
I would be more than happy to get rid of that module but it's not that easy. This is not a component, not even a plugin and you have for example a
public XWikiStatsService getStatsService(XWikiContext context)
method in com.xpn.xwiki.XWiki which is responsible for lazy initialization of that service.
On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Vincent Massol <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi devs,
Since statistics are disabled by default, I'm proposing to not bundle the Statistics application by default. Admins who want to enable stats on their would need to install it through the EM.
In addition, the Stats app's quality is not exactly perfect either and performances are not that great so I think it makes sense to not promote it too much either.
Last, since 5.3M2 the stats app is now visible in the Applications Panel (for Admins), thus not bundling it by default seems even more needed now IMO.
WDYT?
Thanks -Vincent _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Thomas Mortagne _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
+1 Thanks, Marius On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Vincent Massol <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi devs,
Since statistics are disabled by default, I'm proposing to not bundle the Statistics application by default. Admins who want to enable stats on their would need to install it through the EM.
In addition, the Stats app's quality is not exactly perfect either and performances are not that great so I think it makes sense to not promote it too much either.
Last, since 5.3M2 the stats app is now visible in the Applications Panel (for Admins), thus not bundling it by default seems even more needed now IMO.
WDYT?
Thanks -Vincent _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
+1 Thanks, On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Marius Dumitru Florea < [email protected]> wrote:
+1
Thanks, Marius
On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Vincent Massol <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi devs,
Since statistics are disabled by default, I'm proposing to not bundle the Statistics application by default. Admins who want to enable stats on their would need to install it through the EM.
In addition, the Stats app's quality is not exactly perfect either and performances are not that great so I think it makes sense to not promote it too much either.
Last, since 5.3M2 the stats app is now visible in the Applications Panel (for Admins), thus not bundling it by default seems even more needed now IMO.
WDYT?
Thanks -Vincent _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Denis Gervalle SOFTEC sa - CEO
+1 Thanks, Caty On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Denis Gervalle <[email protected]> wrote:
+1
Thanks,
On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Marius Dumitru Florea < [email protected]> wrote:
+1
Thanks, Marius
On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Vincent Massol <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi devs,
Since statistics are disabled by default, I'm proposing to not bundle the Statistics application by default. Admins who want to enable stats on their would need to install it through the EM.
In addition, the Stats app's quality is not exactly perfect either and performances are not that great so I think it makes sense to not promote it too much either.
Last, since 5.3M2 the stats app is now visible in the Applications Panel (for Admins), thus not bundling it by default seems even more needed now IMO.
WDYT?
Thanks -Vincent _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Denis Gervalle SOFTEC sa - CEO _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
On 11/18/2013 05:00 AM, Vincent Massol wrote:
Hi devs,
Since statistics are disabled by default, I'm proposing to not bundle the Statistics application by default. Admins who want to enable stats on their would need to install it through the EM.
In addition, the Stats app's quality is not exactly perfect either and performances are not that great so I think it makes sense to not promote it too much either.
Last, since 5.3M2 the stats app is now visible in the Applications Panel (for Admins), thus not bundling it by default seems even more needed now IMO.
WDYT?
+1. -- Sergiu Dumitriu http://purl.org/net/sergiu
Hello, Is it ok to split the two entities ? If we remove only the front-end (Stats Application) and still bundle with the back-end, what will be the use of the back-end ? IMO we are splitting a possible functionality of XWiki in 2, leaving one module in one side (bundled) and the other not bundled. It looks messy from my POV. WDYT ? Regards, Sorin B.
On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 4:56 PM, Sorin Burjan <[email protected]>wrote:
Hello, Is it ok to split the two entities ? If we remove only the front-end (Stats Application) and still bundle with the back-end, what will be the use of the back-end ? IMO we are splitting a possible functionality of XWiki in 2, leaving one module in one side (bundled) and the other not bundled. It looks messy from my POV.
WDYT ?
yes, ofc it would be better to also remove the stats plugin but that's several order of magnitude more complex. Are you willing to work on that? Please read thomas' answer above in the thread for more details. Thanks -Vincent
Regards, Sorin B.
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
On 11/18/2013 10:56 AM, Sorin Burjan wrote:
Hello, Is it ok to split the two entities ? If we remove only the front-end (Stats Application) and still bundle with the back-end, what will be the use of the back-end ? IMO we are splitting a possible functionality of XWiki in 2, leaving one module in one side (bundled) and the other not bundled. It looks messy from my POV.
Even though it is bundled, the plugin is not really active. It's just code that's sitting there, taking up permgen space. And there are many other parts of the old core that aren't used, but removing things from oldcore is a time costly process. -- Sergiu Dumitriu http://purl.org/net/sergiu
Hi, I'm a bit disappointed about this discussion. To me, statistics are one of the key features of XWiki. On many projects I see, XWiki statistics data is used to provide insights and information about how the wiki is used and what content is found valuable by users. Putting them away (even just through the EM) sounds like something suboptimal. It's exactly as if we said "search is not working well enough, it's not a key wiki competency (as opposed to editing pages) so we should push it away". I'd much prefer seeing proposals on how to improve this module instead of pushing it away. I am intent on advocating on behalf of this feature during the next roadmap cycle, so I'd be really sad to see it pushed away just before then. Guillaume On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 6:28 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[email protected]> wrote:
On 11/18/2013 10:56 AM, Sorin Burjan wrote:
Hello, Is it ok to split the two entities ? If we remove only the front-end (Stats Application) and still bundle with the back-end, what will be the use of the back-end ? IMO we are splitting a possible functionality of XWiki in 2, leaving one module in one side (bundled) and the other not bundled. It looks messy from my POV.
Even though it is bundled, the plugin is not really active. It's just code that's sitting there, taking up permgen space. And there are many other parts of the old core that aren't used, but removing things from oldcore is a time costly process.
-- Sergiu Dumitriu http://purl.org/net/sergiu _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Hi Guillaume, I understand your disappointment but: * By default stats are off because they're not good enough and are too-performance intensive * Most users don't use them * The UI for the stats app is suboptimal ATM * We're removing more and more apps from the default XE since we now have the EM and I don't think the stats app is a must have for all wikis. * Using google analytics or some other web server stats tools usually provide better information than we do The stats app will stil be supported by the xwiki dev team and we'll still work on improving it. I'm not suggesting to retire it. We can bring it back in some flavors in the future. We can also VOTE to move it back by default when we fix the performance + UI issue (it's a one line to change to have it in by default or not). Thanks -Vincent On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]>wrote:
Hi,
I'm a bit disappointed about this discussion. To me, statistics are one of the key features of XWiki. On many projects I see, XWiki statistics data is used to provide insights and information about how the wiki is used and what content is found valuable by users. Putting them away (even just through the EM) sounds like something suboptimal. It's exactly as if we said "search is not working well enough, it's not a key wiki competency (as opposed to editing pages) so we should push it away".
I'd much prefer seeing proposals on how to improve this module instead of pushing it away. I am intent on advocating on behalf of this feature during the next roadmap cycle, so I'd be really sad to see it pushed away just before then.
Guillaume
On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 6:28 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[email protected]> wrote:
On 11/18/2013 10:56 AM, Sorin Burjan wrote:
Hello, Is it ok to split the two entities ? If we remove only the front-end (Stats Application) and still bundle with the back-end, what will be the use of the back-end ? IMO we are splitting a possible functionality of XWiki in 2, leaving one module in one side (bundled) and the other not bundled. It looks messy from my POV.
Even though it is bundled, the plugin is not really active. It's just code that's sitting there, taking up permgen space. And there are many other parts of the old core that aren't used, but removing things from oldcore is a time costly process.
-- Sergiu Dumitriu http://purl.org/net/sergiu _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Hi Vincent, please see my comments below. On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 2:56 PM, Vincent Massol <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Guillaume,
I understand your disappointment but: * By default stats are off because they're not good enough and are too-performance intensive
Regarding performance, this might have been true a while ago, but to my knowledge this has not been tested recently. XWiki stats are used on several big XWiki deployments and do not cause performance issues.
* Most users don't use them
Because they're not activated by default. It's exactly as if you said "most people don't use the WYSIWYG" if it was not available by default. You're reverting the issue. In addition to this, I'd like to see the data you're basing this answer on. I see many projects where we are being asked to retrieve information from the XWiki statistics. * The UI for the stats app is suboptimal ATM
It has the merit of existing. Again, I've used it on several projects.
* We're removing more and more apps from the default XE since we now have the EM and I don't think the stats app is a must have for all wikis
I think you're not seeing the whole variety of use cases here. Pretty much every wiki used for a real project ends up needing statistics. In addition to this, stats are valuable over time. I've experienced the case several times where we activated stats at one point and the end user was disappointed to not have the information about time before when the stats are activated. You need to have the stats module log information on a permanent basis for it to unlock its full potential.
* Using google analytics or some other web server stats tools usually provide better information than we do
This statement is not accurate. This might be true for pure viewing data, but it's not the case when you want to have XWiki-specific information. Just last week, I used stats on 3 large projects to get information such as: - Number of identified users who accessed the wiki at least one time in the past year - Number of users who performed at least 1 edit action in the past year Neither Google Analytics nor Piwik can provide me with this type of information by default. The stats app will stil be supported by the xwiki dev team and we'll
still work on improving it. I'm not suggesting to retire it.
See my argument above about why having stats collection on by default is important. Thanks, Guillaume We can bring it back in some flavors in the future. We can also VOTE
to move it back by default when we fix the performance + UI issue (it's a one line to change to have it in by default or not).
Thanks -Vincent
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]
wrote:
Hi,
I'm a bit disappointed about this discussion. To me, statistics are one of the key features of XWiki. On many projects I see, XWiki statistics data is used to provide insights and information about how the wiki is used and what content is found valuable by users. Putting them away (even just through the EM) sounds like something suboptimal. It's exactly as if we said "search is not working well enough, it's not a key wiki competency (as opposed to editing pages) so we should push it away".
I'd much prefer seeing proposals on how to improve this module instead of pushing it away. I am intent on advocating on behalf of this feature during the next roadmap cycle, so I'd be really sad to see it pushed away just before then.
Guillaume
On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 6:28 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[email protected]> wrote:
On 11/18/2013 10:56 AM, Sorin Burjan wrote:
Hello, Is it ok to split the two entities ? If we remove only the front-end (Stats Application) and still bundle with the back-end, what will be the use of the back-end ? IMO we are splitting a possible functionality of XWiki in 2, leaving one module in one side (bundled) and the other not bundled. It looks messy from my POV.
Even though it is bundled, the plugin is not really active. It's just code that's sitting there, taking up permgen space. And there are many other parts of the old core that aren't used, but removing things from oldcore is a time costly process.
-- Sergiu Dumitriu http://purl.org/net/sergiu _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 3:17 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]>wrote:
Hi Vincent,
please see my comments below.
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 2:56 PM, Vincent Massol <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Guillaume,
I understand your disappointment but: * By default stats are off because they're not good enough and are too-performance intensive
Regarding performance, this might have been true a while ago, but to my knowledge this has not been tested recently. XWiki stats are used on several big XWiki deployments and do not cause performance issues.
Every time I've tried to put them back on xwiki.org I've had to remove them again since they were taking too much resources on xwiki.org and slowing the site down. I'm really surprised that you say there are no performance issues... Also note that AFAIK there has been NO new dev on stats performance since Thomas worked on that back in 2008 (http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-2249 ). There's a reason why we've put on the stats page that "The statistics module is disabled by default for improved performances." Now it would be interesting to have some real performance reports with and without stats to see how much they impact. But that doesn't make them good enough ATM to be on by default anyway and just because of that the app should not be there by default (it can be brought back in later on if we think it's important). Thanks -Vincent
* Most users don't use them
Because they're not activated by default. It's exactly as if you said "most people don't use the WYSIWYG" if it was not available by default. You're reverting the issue. In addition to this, I'd like to see the data you're basing this answer on.
I see many projects where we are being asked to retrieve information from the XWiki statistics.
* The UI for the stats app is suboptimal ATM
It has the merit of existing. Again, I've used it on several projects.
* We're removing more and more apps from the default XE since we now have the EM and I don't think the stats app is a must have for all wikis
I think you're not seeing the whole variety of use cases here. Pretty much every wiki used for a real project ends up needing statistics. In addition to this, stats are valuable over time. I've experienced the case several times where we activated stats at one point and the end user was disappointed to not have the information about time before when the stats are activated. You need to have the stats module log information on a permanent basis for it to unlock its full potential.
* Using google analytics or some other web server stats tools usually provide better information than we do
This statement is not accurate. This might be true for pure viewing data, but it's not the case when you want to have XWiki-specific information. Just last week, I used stats on 3 large projects to get information such as:
- Number of identified users who accessed the wiki at least one time in the past year - Number of users who performed at least 1 edit action in the past year
Neither Google Analytics nor Piwik can provide me with this type of information by default.
The stats app will stil be supported by the xwiki dev team and we'll
still work on improving it. I'm not suggesting to retire it.
See my argument above about why having stats collection on by default is important.
Thanks,
Guillaume
We can bring it back in some flavors in the future. We can also VOTE
to move it back by default when we fix the performance + UI issue (it's a one line to change to have it in by default or not).
Thanks -Vincent
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]
wrote:
Hi,
I'm a bit disappointed about this discussion. To me, statistics are one of the key features of XWiki. On many projects I see, XWiki statistics data is used to provide insights and information about how the wiki is used and what content is found valuable by users. Putting them away (even just through the EM) sounds like something suboptimal. It's exactly as if we said "search is not working well enough, it's not a key wiki competency (as opposed to editing pages) so we should push it away".
I'd much prefer seeing proposals on how to improve this module instead of pushing it away. I am intent on advocating on behalf of this feature during the next roadmap cycle, so I'd be really sad to see it pushed away just before then.
Guillaume
On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 6:28 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[email protected]> wrote:
On 11/18/2013 10:56 AM, Sorin Burjan wrote:
Hello, Is it ok to split the two entities ? If we remove only the front-end (Stats Application) and still bundle with the back-end, what will be the use of the back-end ? IMO we are splitting a possible functionality of XWiki in 2, leaving one module in one side (bundled) and the other not bundled. It looks messy from my POV.
Even though it is bundled, the plugin is not really active. It's just code that's sitting there, taking up permgen space. And there are many other parts of the old core that aren't used, but removing things from oldcore is a time costly process.
-- Sergiu Dumitriu http://purl.org/net/sergiu _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Hi, I’m bringing this topic again. Just spoke with Guillaume (who was the only one against it) and he seems ok nowadays! :) So this topic is passed with: * 6 +1 binding * +0 from Guillaume I’ll remove it. Thanks -Vincent On 18 Nov 2013 at 11:00:47, Vincent Massol ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
Hi devs,
Since statistics are disabled by default, I'm proposing to not bundle the Statistics application by default. Admins who want to enable stats on their would need to install it through the EM.
In addition, the Stats app's quality is not exactly perfect either and performances are not that great so I think it makes sense to not promote it too much either.
Last, since 5.3M2 the stats app is now visible in the Applications Panel (for Admins), thus not bundling it by default seems even more needed now IMO.
WDYT?
Thanks -Vincent
participants (9)
-
Denis Gervalle -
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) -
Guillaume Lerouge -
Marius Dumitru Florea -
Sergiu Dumitriu -
Sorin Burjan -
Thomas Mortagne -
Vincent Massol -
vincent＠massol.net