[xwiki-devs] [VOTE] Remove moderate style filtering option from office importer
Hi Devs, Currently officeimporter application has three levels of style filtering options: 1. Strict: Remove all the styles presented in the original document except for those that can be mapped directly into xwiki syntax 2. None: Keep all the styles (no filtering what so ever) 3. Moderate: Only keep those styles without which the output would be drastically different from the original document (ex: alignments, image widths etc.) As you can see the third option (was my idea) is kind of hard to define and can be confusing to the user as well. The first too options make a lot of sense to the user and after discussing with vincent I decided to ask for a vote to remove it. Plus this is consistent with the officeimporter wysiwyg plugin which only allows either to keep all the styles or remove everything. Also, if we decide to remove the moderate filtering option, we can represent the options by a checkbox (Filter Styles). Which should be the default filtering criterion? I'm thinking it should be not to filter any styles so that the output looks more or less like the original document. Here's my +1. WDYT? Thanks.
Hi, On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Asiri Rathnayake < [email protected]> wrote:
Hi Devs,
Currently officeimporter application has three levels of style filtering options:
1. Strict: Remove all the styles presented in the original document except for those that can be mapped directly into xwiki syntax
2. None: Keep all the styles (no filtering what so ever)
3. Moderate: Only keep those styles without which the output would be drastically different from the original document (ex: alignments, image widths etc.)
As you can see the third option (was my idea) is kind of hard to define and can be confusing to the user as well. The first too options make a lot of sense to the user and after discussing with vincent I decided to ask for a vote to remove it.
Plus this is consistent with the officeimporter wysiwyg plugin which only allows either to keep all the styles or remove everything.
Also, if we decide to remove the moderate filtering option, we can represent the options by a checkbox (Filter Styles). Which should be the default filtering criterion? I'm thinking it should be not to filter any styles so that the output looks more or less like the original document.
Here's my +1.
+1 for removing "Moderate" I think the default should be to apply the filter so that the syntax is kept clean and the overall look consistent with other pages. While it doesn't matter much if Word documents differ from one another, on a website having page with different alignments and various colors schemes etc is not really a good practice. Thus to me standard should be uniformization, not the opposite. Guillaume
WDYT?
Thanks. _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Guillaume Lerouge Product Manager - XWiki Skype ID : wikibc http://guillaumelerouge.com/
Guillaume Lerouge wrote:
Hi,
On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Asiri Rathnayake < [email protected]> wrote:
Hi Devs,
Currently officeimporter application has three levels of style filtering options:
1. Strict: Remove all the styles presented in the original document except for those that can be mapped directly into xwiki syntax
2. None: Keep all the styles (no filtering what so ever)
3. Moderate: Only keep those styles without which the output would be drastically different from the original document (ex: alignments, image widths etc.)
As you can see the third option (was my idea) is kind of hard to define and can be confusing to the user as well. The first too options make a lot of sense to the user and after discussing with vincent I decided to ask for a vote to remove it.
Plus this is consistent with the officeimporter wysiwyg plugin which only allows either to keep all the styles or remove everything.
Also, if we decide to remove the moderate filtering option, we can represent the options by a checkbox (Filter Styles). Which should be the default filtering criterion? I'm thinking it should be not to filter any styles so that the output looks more or less like the original document.
Here's my +1.
+1 for removing "Moderate" I think the default should be to apply the filter so that the syntax is kept clean and the overall look consistent with other pages. While it doesn't matter much if Word documents differ from one another, on a website having page with different alignments and various colors schemes etc is not really a good practice. Thus to me standard should be uniformization, not the opposite. Guillaume
+1 (for removal and for Guillaume's argument) -- Sergiu Dumitriu http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
On Feb 12, 2009, at 6:05 PM, Asiri Rathnayake wrote:
Hi Devs,
Currently officeimporter application has three levels of style filtering options:
1. Strict: Remove all the styles presented in the original document except for those that can be mapped directly into xwiki syntax
2. None: Keep all the styles (no filtering what so ever)
3. Moderate: Only keep those styles without which the output would be drastically different from the original document (ex: alignments, image widths etc.)
As you can see the third option (was my idea) is kind of hard to define and can be confusing to the user as well. The first too options make a lot of sense to the user and after discussing with vincent I decided to ask for a vote to remove it.
Plus this is consistent with the officeimporter wysiwyg plugin which only allows either to keep all the styles or remove everything.
Also, if we decide to remove the moderate filtering option, we can represent the options by a checkbox (Filter Styles). Which should be the default filtering criterion? I'm thinking it should be not to filter any styles so that the output looks more or less like the original document.
Here's my +1.
+1 to remove it and +1 to have the default be "no style filter". Contrary to Guillaume I think this is what users will expect and since most users will use the wysiwyg editor edit pages it won't matter at all if the wiki syntax is clean or not for them. What will matter to them though is that the images are the right sizes and that they have to resize them manually when they import a document, that the alignments are the same, etc. Thanks -Vincent http://xwiki.com http://xwiki.org http://massol.net
+1 to remove Moderate filtering level. +1 for having Strict as the default filtering level (I'm thinking that we should educate our users and make them understand that most of the time office content is not suited as it is for web) Thanks, Marius Asiri Rathnayake wrote:
Hi Devs,
Currently officeimporter application has three levels of style filtering options:
1. Strict: Remove all the styles presented in the original document except for those that can be mapped directly into xwiki syntax
2. None: Keep all the styles (no filtering what so ever)
3. Moderate: Only keep those styles without which the output would be drastically different from the original document (ex: alignments, image widths etc.)
As you can see the third option (was my idea) is kind of hard to define and can be confusing to the user as well. The first too options make a lot of sense to the user and after discussing with vincent I decided to ask for a vote to remove it.
Plus this is consistent with the officeimporter wysiwyg plugin which only allows either to keep all the styles or remove everything.
Also, if we decide to remove the moderate filtering option, we can represent the options by a checkbox (Filter Styles). Which should be the default filtering criterion? I'm thinking it should be not to filter any styles so that the output looks more or less like the original document.
Here's my +1.
WDYT?
Thanks. _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea < [email protected]> wrote:
+1 to remove Moderate filtering level. +1 for having Strict as the default filtering level (I'm thinking that we should educate our users and make them understand that most of the time office content is not suited as it is for web)
One thing worth to be mentioned is that with 'strict' filtering we currently filter out image widths, heights, alignments and such (basically anything that requires (%%) in wiki code) This means if a user imports a document containing a lot of scaled-down / precisely-aligned images (or other stuff) the output would look pretty screwed without the styles. And this might not give the user a good impression about the officeimporter application. Rather, if keep the 'no style filter' as the default, a default import would at least be close to the original document. And the user will _have_ to set the 'strict' filtering mode knowing what he is doing (thus the result is acceptable). This is only my POV. Thanks. - Asiri
Asiri Rathnayake wrote:
On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea < [email protected]> wrote:
+1 to remove Moderate filtering level. +1 for having Strict as the default filtering level (I'm thinking that we should educate our users and make them understand that most of the time office content is not suited as it is for web)
One thing worth to be mentioned is that with 'strict' filtering we currently filter out image widths, heights, alignments and such (basically anything
that requires (%%) in wiki code) This means if a user imports a document
You said: "Strict: Remove all the styles presented in the original document except for those that can be mapped directly into xwiki syntax" Isn't (%%) xwiki syntax? I think so.
containing a lot of scaled-down / precisely-aligned images (or other stuff) the output would look pretty screwed without the styles. And this might not give the user a good impression about the officeimporter application.
Rather, if keep the 'no style filter' as the default, a default import would at least be close to the original document. And the user will _have_ to set the 'strict' filtering mode knowing what he is doing (thus the result is acceptable).
This is only my POV.
Thanks.
- Asiri _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea < [email protected]> wrote:
Asiri Rathnayake wrote:
On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea < [email protected]> wrote:
+1 to remove Moderate filtering level. +1 for having Strict as the default filtering level (I'm thinking that we should educate our users and make them understand that most of the time office content is not suited as it is for web)
One thing worth to be mentioned is that with 'strict' filtering we currently filter out image widths, heights, alignments and such (basically anything
that requires (%%) in wiki code) This means if a user imports a document
You said:
"Strict: Remove all the styles presented in the original document except for those that can be mapped directly into xwiki syntax"
Isn't (%%) xwiki syntax? I think so.
Well in that case we should not strip any styles at all... I mean everything possible in xhtml can be represented in xwiki code. The problem with (%%) is that when there are so many of them (when there are so many styles / parameters set in the original office content) it's really hard to read the generated wiki code (it's a mess). That's why we filter those stuff that require (%%) in wiki code, to keep it clean... By "mapping directly into xwiki syntax" I meant those styles that do not require additional parameters (%%). For an example, bold, italic etc. etc. So 'strict filtering' --> no (%%) Thanks. - Asiri
containing a lot of scaled-down / precisely-aligned images (or other stuff) the output would look pretty screwed without the styles. And this might not give the user a good impression about the officeimporter application.
Rather, if keep the 'no style filter' as the default, a default import would at least be close to the original document. And the user will _have_ to set the 'strict' filtering mode knowing what he is doing (thus the result is acceptable).
This is only my POV.
Thanks.
- Asiri _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Asiri Rathnayake wrote:
On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea < [email protected]> wrote:
Asiri Rathnayake wrote:
On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea < [email protected]> wrote:
+1 to remove Moderate filtering level. +1 for having Strict as the default filtering level (I'm thinking that we should educate our users and make them understand that most of the time office content is not suited as it is for web)
One thing worth to be mentioned is that with 'strict' filtering we currently filter out image widths, heights, alignments and such (basically anything that requires (%%) in wiki code) This means if a user imports a document You said:
"Strict: Remove all the styles presented in the original document except for those that can be mapped directly into xwiki syntax"
Isn't (%%) xwiki syntax? I think so.
Well in that case we should not strip any styles at all... I mean everything possible in xhtml can be represented in xwiki code.
Not quite. XHTML is a richer syntax than XWiki. For one thing HTML forms can't be represented in XWiki syntax.
The problem with (%%) is that when there are so many of them (when there are so many styles / parameters set in the original office content) it's really hard to read the generated wiki code (it's a mess).
That's why we filter those stuff that require (%%) in wiki code, to keep it clean...
By "mapping directly into xwiki syntax" I meant those styles that do not require additional parameters (%%). For an example, bold, italic etc. etc.
So 'strict filtering' --> no (%%)
Then I don't see it's purpose. It's really rare to have an XHTML with attribute-less tags. Title, alt, class, id are just a few of the common XHTML attributes that go inside (%%) in XWiki syntax. Basically you're saying that passing a hand-written XHTML page to the office importer/cleaner removes all my attributes beside src on images and href on link. Why would I need such a filter?
Thanks.
- Asiri
containing a lot of scaled-down / precisely-aligned images (or other stuff) the output would look pretty screwed without the styles. And this might not give the user a good impression about the officeimporter application.
Rather, if keep the 'no style filter' as the default, a default import would at least be close to the original document. And the user will _have_ to set the 'strict' filtering mode knowing what he is doing (thus the result is acceptable).
This is only my POV.
Thanks.
- Asiri _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Hi,
So 'strict filtering' --> no (%%)
Then I don't see it's purpose. It's really rare to have an XHTML with attribute-less tags. Title, alt, class, id are just a few of the common XHTML attributes that go inside (%%) in XWiki syntax.
Basically you're saying that passing a hand-written XHTML page to the office importer/cleaner removes all my attributes beside src on images and href on link. Why would I need such a filter?
The purpose of officeimporter is not to process xhtml documents but office documents. Yes, _currently_ 'strict filter' only allows those few attributes that are mandatory for preserving the _content_ of the original office document, not it's presentation. This is exactly why I included a 'moderate' filter... which keeps the wiki output not being out-of-shape with the original document. Thanks. - Asiri
Hi Asiri, Asiri Rathnayake wrote:
Hi,
So 'strict filtering' --> no (%%) Then I don't see it's purpose. It's really rare to have an XHTML with attribute-less tags. Title, alt, class, id are just a few of the common XHTML attributes that go inside (%%) in XWiki syntax.
Basically you're saying that passing a hand-written XHTML page to the office importer/cleaner removes all my attributes beside src on images and href on link. Why would I need such a filter?
The purpose of officeimporter is not to process xhtml documents but office documents. Yes, _currently_ 'strict filter' only allows those few attributes that are mandatory for preserving the _content_ of the original office document, not it's presentation.
Links can have name, rel and target. Images require alt. Tables can have summary. These are not really presentational attributes.
This is exactly why I included a 'moderate' filter... which keeps the wiki output not being out-of-shape with the original document.
Then I'm -0 for removing the Moderate filter. Let's see what others think. Thanks, Marius.
Thanks.
- Asiri _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Hi,
Links can have name, rel and target. Images require alt. Tables can have summary. These are not really presentational attributes.
Some of these attributes are allowed in 'strict' mode (name, alt, colspan, rowspan) - These are the attributes we consider non-presentational. And some of them doesn't make sense when we consider office documents (ex target) So I think 'strict' style filter makes lot of sense. But it's possible that there are other attributes that should be allowed in 'strict' filtering mode. Thanks. - Asiri
Hi, I thought about the issue a bit more and I changed my mind: I agree with Asiri & Vincent on the fact that an user will expect most of the styles he applied to be preserved on the resulting document. There are 2 different issues at hand: 1) Same-looking documents across the wiki 2) Wikis syntax readability Thus to select a number of filtering levels and options we need to answer the following questions: 1) Do we want to force a standard layout for content throughout the wiki? 2) Do we want a human to be able to read the outputted wiki wyntax? I agree with Asiri on the fact that we should not have more than 2 options available. Here are my answers: 1) My webdesigner's spirit (as far as I have one) goes towards imposing a similar layout for content. However, people are messy. They want to do whateverthey want with their content. If they fail at doing so, they get annoyed (and they don't care about what I think about it :-). If they get annoyed, they stop using the software. Thus we should not filter out styles by default. 2) My developer's spirit (ibidem) leans in favor of clean, readable syntax. But that's because I like using the wiki syntax editor. We spent months creating a WYSIWYG editor that will work so much better than the old one that the majority of people will never have to bother looking at wiki syntax again. This is good. Thus syntax readability doesn't matter much either. I'm in favor of keeping 2 options though, since some people (well, in this case at least Sergiu & me :-) will want to strip almost everything but content when importing documents (and reach objectives 1) & 2) ). Plus, as the original doc gets attached to the page, it can be imported again using the other import mode if the first one used wasn't satisfying enough. The default option should be to use as little filtering as possible. As for the criteria in choosing what goes in both filtering modes: * strict filtering: keep the syntax as readable as possible, thus remove every %% * standard import: well, I still think you could remove that weird "western" property that gets into most documents ;-) Apart from that, the more the better (Asiri, did you write a detailed list of properties to add / remove somewhere?) Guillaume ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Asiri Rathnayake <[email protected]> Date: Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [xwiki-devs] [VOTE] Remove moderate style filtering option from office importer To: XWiki Developers <[email protected]> Hi,
Links can have name, rel and target. Images require alt. Tables can have summary. These are not really presentational attributes.
Some of these attributes are allowed in 'strict' mode (name, alt, colspan, rowspan) - These are the attributes we consider non-presentational. And some of them doesn't make sense when we consider office documents (ex target) So I think 'strict' style filter makes lot of sense. But it's possible that there are other attributes that should be allowed in 'strict' filtering mode. Thanks. - Asiri _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs -- Guillaume Lerouge Product Manager - XWiki Skype ID : wikibc http://guillaumelerouge.com/
This is exactly why I included a 'moderate' filter... which keeps the
wiki
output not being out-of-shape with the original document.
Then I'm -0 for removing the Moderate filter. Let's see what others think.
PS: The moderate style filter was responsible for preserving sizes and alignments of various objects (other than those attributes allowed in strict filter). But this is confusing for the user who doesn't care much about the wiki syntax but the final output. So 'filter styles' / 'no filtering' is much more better than having three options IMO. Thanks. - Asiri
participants (5)
-
Asiri Rathnayake -
Guillaume Lerouge -
Marius Dumitru Florea -
Sergiu Dumitriu -
Vincent Massol