On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 9:41 AM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:

On 12 Jun 2015 at 09:34:48, Thomas Mortagne ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:

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On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 9:02 AM, [email protected] wrote:

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Hi devs,

With the intoduction of http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-12171 (Add a script right to manage script macro execution permissions) in 7.2, we should also think about renaming what we call "Programming Right" (PR for short) since "Script" and "Programming" are close. At least to change that in the UI (and possibly even at API level by introducing new methods ands deprecating old ones).

First step would be to find a new name. I can think of: * Privilege Right (nice thing is that PR is still valid ;)) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/privilege "a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most:". This would mean that people with the Privilege Right would be able to use Privileged APIs.

"Privilege Right" sounds weird to me since a privilege is essentially a right (as indicated in your definition).

Indeed. We would need to mention something else, like “Privileged API Right” and it’s kind of longish (and we probably need some right name with a larger scope, see below).

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* System Right * God Right

* Root right (that's essentially what it is when you compare to OS world even if "root" is a bit technical but it's not the kind of right you give to anyone either) * Super Admin right

Yes all those right names are good if we agree that this right is no longer just about allowing execution of Privileged API. In practice there are several places where we’ve already used this right for things other than executing Privileged API so I agree with your reasoning.

It's actually already kind of more that that already since in the right system it implies all the other rights (like root).

re “Super Admin”, would it be confusing WRT the existing “Admin” right?

For me “System” or “Root” are the best ATM (short names, meaningful).

Thanks -Vincent

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My preference goes to "Privilege" or "Privileged".

WDYT about 1) Changing the name 2) The new name to use if you agree with 1) ?

Thanks -Vincent

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-- Thomas Mortagne

Hi Caleb, On 12 Jun 2015 at 10:28:23, Caleb James DeLisle ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:

I think I can say without justification that changing a term which is in the XWiki developer's lexicon is going to inflict pain, however I don't see the real pain in keeping it. Certainly other names could be better and I might have chosen "root" to keep with unix standards of "Global Administrator Right" to explain that it's global to a farm.

But I don't think the self-explanitory nature of these names over "programming right" is adaquate reason to change.

Standard gage railroad track is 4 feet 8 and a half inches wide, certainly not the *best* width and indeed somewhat of an insane number, but the people who built the first trains were wagon makers and that was the width of the wagon axles because if they were not that width, they would break when running in the rutted stone roads left by the Romans, indeed that width dates all the way back to the width of a Roman war chariot... or so the story goes.

The point is that as much as existing standards might suck, "programming rights" is carved into every XWiki developer's mind just as "4 feet 8 and a half inches" is written in the ties, tunnels, switches and bridges all over the world and to propose a change to that you need a *really* good reason.

While I understand what you’re saying (however this would be just a name change!!), based on your logic we would never change anything: - we would still call “web” the notion of spaces - we wouldn’t be able to drop the concept of spaces for nested documents - etc Now I agree that every change should be motivated, maybe I failed to explain the motivation properly. Reason 1: "programming right” doesn’t have much to do anymore with programming ;) (it never has but that’s another matter). It’s used for securing lots of other topics. Reason 2: Every day we have people who don’t understand what “programming right” is about. They think it’s the “script” right that we wish to add. Since you’re on IRC I’m sure you’re seeing this too. The latest occurrence was yesterday night but it happens daily. So IMO the pain point is now, not later ;) Thanks -Vincent

On 06/12/2015 09:02 AM, [email protected] wrote:

...

Hi devs,

With the intoduction of http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-12171 (Add a script right to manage script macro execution permissions) in 7.2, we should also think about renaming what we call "Programming Right" (PR for short) since "Script" and "Programming" are close. At least to change that in the UI (and possibly even at API level by introducing new methods ands deprecating old ones).

First step would be to find a new name. I can think of: * Privilege Right (nice thing is that PR is still valid ;)) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/privilege "a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most:". This would mean that people with the Privilege Right would be able to use Privileged APIs. * System Right * God Right

My preference goes to "Privilege" or "Privileged".

WDYT about 1) Changing the name 2) The new name to use if you agree with 1) ?

Thanks -Vincent

Hi, As Caty mentioned in an offline discussion, in our current rights system we have 2 types of rights: 1) Individual rights that are self-contained and can be enabled or disable without side-effects: - login, view, script, delete, register, comment, createwiki 2) Roles, defined by rights that imply other rights, so when enabling or disabling them, they have side-effects: - edit, creator, admin, programming (creator and admin already kid of suggest they are roles from their names) ATM, programming is indeed misleading since it`s a *role* which is more powerful than an admin. IMO, it would make much more sense to call it "superadmin", as suggested already in this thread, since assigning it to a user would grant him rights equivalent to the superadmin user. Calling it the "superadmin right" would be consistent with what we do now for the admin right where the XWiki.Admin user and it would not conflict with the "superadmin user", but rather complement it. So we would end up with 2 rights: admin right and superadmin right for which we have 2 equivalent users "XWiki.Admin" and "superadmin". This way we would remove any confusion and the name would clearly define what the current "programming" right actually does, in its entirety. WDYT about this reasoning? Thanks, Eduard On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 12:02 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:

On 12 Jun 2015 at 11:00:30, [email protected] ([email protected](mailto: [email protected])) wrote:

...

Hi Caleb,

On 12 Jun 2015 at 10:28:23, Caleb James DeLisle ([email protected](mailto: [email protected])) wrote:

...

I think I can say without justification that changing a term which is in the XWiki developer's lexicon is going to inflict pain, however I don't see the real pain in keeping it. Certainly other names could be better and I might have chosen "root" to keep with unix standards of "Global Administrator Right" to explain that it's global to a farm.

But I don't think the self-explanitory nature of these names over "programming right" is adaquate reason to change.

Standard gage railroad track is 4 feet 8 and a half inches wide, certainly not the *best* width and indeed somewhat of an insane number, but the people who built the first trains were wagon makers and that was the width of the wagon axles because if they were not that width, they would break when running in the rutted stone roads left by the Romans, indeed that width dates all the way back to the width of a Roman war chariot... or so the story goes.

The point is that as much as existing standards might suck, "programming rights" is carved into every XWiki developer's mind just as "4 feet 8 and a half inches" is written in the ties, tunnels, switches and bridges all over the world and to propose a change to that you need a *really* good reason.

While I understand what you’re saying (however this would be just a name change!!), based on your logic we would never change anything: - we would still call “web” the notion of spaces - we wouldn’t be able to drop the concept of spaces for nested documents - etc

Now I agree that every change should be motivated, maybe I failed to explain the motivation properly.

Reason 1: "programming right” doesn’t have much to do anymore with programming ;) (it never has but that’s another matter). It’s used for securing lots of other topics. Reason 2: Every day we have people who don’t understand what “programming right” is about. They think it’s the “script” right that we wish to add. Since you’re on IRC I’m sure you’re seeing this too. The latest occurrence was yesterday night but it happens daily.

And of course:

Reason 3: With the introdution of the “Script” permissions it’ll increase even more confusion (that was the main initial motivator)

Thanks -Vincent

...

So IMO the pain point is now, not later ;)

Thanks -Vincent

...

On 06/12/2015 09:02 AM, [email protected] wrote:

...

Hi devs,

With the intoduction of http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-12171 (Add a script right to manage script macro execution permissions) in 7.2, we should also think about renaming what we call "Programming Right" (PR for short) since "Script" and "Programming" are close. At least to change that in the UI (and possibly even at API level by introducing new methods ands deprecating old ones).

First step would be to find a new name. I can think of: * Privilege Right (nice thing is that PR is still valid ;)) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/privilege "a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most:". This would mean that people with the Privilege Right would be able to use Privileged APIs. * System Right * God Right

My preference goes to "Privilege" or "Privileged".

WDYT about 1) Changing the name 2) The new name to use if you agree with 1) ?

Thanks -Vincent

---

devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

On 12 Jun 2015 at 11:53:49, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:

How about renaming Script right to 'Execute’?

1) It’s not about executing stuff, it’s much wider (it’s a system/root/superadmin permissions to be able to do lots of things) 2) everything is about executing stuff :) 3) the script permission is also a right to execute scripts Thanks -Vincent

Otherwise I like the Privileged name.

Thanks, Caty

On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Caleb James DeLisle wrote:

...

I think I can say without justification that changing a term which is in the XWiki developer's lexicon is going to inflict pain, however I don't see the real pain in keeping it. Certainly other names could be better and I might have chosen "root" to keep with unix standards of "Global Administrator Right" to explain that it's global to a farm.

But I don't think the self-explanitory nature of these names over "programming right" is adaquate reason to change.

Standard gage railroad track is 4 feet 8 and a half inches wide, certainly not the *best* width and indeed somewhat of an insane number, but the people who built the first trains were wagon makers and that was the width of the wagon axles because if they were not that width, they would break when running in the rutted stone roads left by the Romans, indeed that width dates all the way back to the width of a Roman war chariot... or so the story goes.

The point is that as much as existing standards might suck, "programming rights" is carved into every XWiki developer's mind just as "4 feet 8 and a half inches" is written in the ties, tunnels, switches and bridges all over the world and to propose a change to that you need a *really* good reason.

On 06/12/2015 09:02 AM, [email protected] wrote:

...

Hi devs,

With the intoduction of http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-12171 (Add a script right to manage script macro execution permissions) in 7.2, we should also think about renaming what we call "Programming Right" (PR for short) since "Script" and "Programming" are close. At least to change that in the UI (and possibly even at API level by introducing new methods ands deprecating old ones).

First step would be to find a new name. I can think of: * Privilege Right (nice thing is that PR is still valid ;)) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/privilege "a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most:". This would mean that people with the Privilege Right would be able to use Privileged APIs. * System Right * God Right

My preference goes to "Privilege" or "Privileged".

WDYT about 1) Changing the name 2) The new name to use if you agree with 1) ?

Thanks -Vincent

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From the proposal done so far, I like the proposal from Cathy and Edy, they looks the most simple ones to understand from an end-user point of view.

Superadmin role implies Admin role which implies Execute rights and more. Just for the sake of clarity, right implying other rights is not transitive, and its is a feature. There is also an important side effect when right is implied, the implied right receive the behavior (tie resolution, inheritance policy, etc...) of the right which imply it. So in true facts, there no roles, but rights and many more attributes: Superadmin right default to deny, will implies Admin, Execute, View, Edit, Delete,..., and will have a tie resolution allow and an inheritance policy not deniable. Admin right default to deny will implies Execute, View, Edit, Delete..., and will have a tie resolution allow and an inheritance policy not deniable. Execute right default to allow with no implies, I suppose will have a tie resolution deny, and an inheritance policy deniable. I know you could see the above as hijacking your thread, but I do remember a discussion about it and you are about to implement it. So it is probably the right time to agree on those as well. On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 12:02 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:

On 12 Jun 2015 at 11:58:02, [email protected] ([email protected](mailto: [email protected])) wrote:

...

On 12 Jun 2015 at 11:53:49, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ([email protected]

(mailto:[email protected])) wrote:

...

...

How about renaming Script right to 'Execute’?

1) It’s not about executing stuff, it’s much wider (it’s a

system/root/superadmin permissions to be able to do lots of things)

...

2) everything is about executing stuff :) 3) the script permission is also a right to execute scripts

I misread, I thought you wanted to rename the “PR” as “Execute” (since that’s the topic of this thread).

Still, that would make this renaming proposal even more important.

Thanks -Vincent

...

Thanks -Vincent

...

Otherwise I like the Privileged name.

Thanks, Caty

On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Caleb James DeLisle wrote:

...

I think I can say without justification that changing a term which is in the XWiki developer's lexicon is going to inflict pain, however I don't see the real pain in keeping it. Certainly other names could be better and I might have chosen "root" to keep with unix standards of "Global Administrator Right" to explain that it's global to a farm.

But I don't think the self-explanitory nature of these names over "programming right" is adaquate reason to change.

Standard gage railroad track is 4 feet 8 and a half inches wide, certainly not the *best* width and indeed somewhat of an insane number, but the people who built the first trains were wagon makers and that was the width of the wagon axles because if they were not that width, they would break when running in the rutted stone roads left by the Romans, indeed that width dates all the way back to the width of a Roman war chariot... or so the story goes.

The point is that as much as existing standards might suck, "programming rights" is carved into every XWiki developer's mind just as "4 feet 8 and a half inches" is written in the ties, tunnels, switches and bridges all over the world and to propose a change to that you need a *really* good reason.

On 06/12/2015 09:02 AM, [email protected] wrote:

...

Hi devs,

With the intoduction of http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-12171 (Add a script right to manage script macro execution permissions) in 7.2, we should also think about renaming what we call "Programming Right" (PR for short) since "Script" and "Programming" are close. At least to change that in the UI (and possibly even at API level by introducing new methods ands deprecating old ones).

First step would be to find a new name. I can think of: * Privilege Right (nice thing is that PR is still valid ;)) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/privilege "a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most:". This would mean that people with the Privilege Right would be able to use Privileged APIs. * System Right * God Right

My preference goes to "Privilege" or "Privileged".

WDYT about 1) Changing the name 2) The new name to use if you agree with 1) ?

Thanks -Vincent

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

-- Satire is the escape hatch from the cycle of sorrow, hatred and violence. #JeSuisCharlie _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

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Hi, On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 12:53 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:

How about renaming Script right to 'Execute'?

You have a point here, since any user can "script", i.e. write a script in a document's content. What the currently proposed "script" right is actually supposed to do is to allow the author to *execute* any script inside the document. So a right called "executeScript" would be much more expressive and remove any confusion about what it is supposed to do. Obviously, the con of "executeScript" would be the long name and the fact that we would probably end up calling it "script" anyway. Food for thought... Thanks, Eduard

Otherwise I like the Privileged name.

Thanks, Caty

On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Caleb James DeLisle <[email protected]> wrote:

...

I think I can say without justification that changing a term which is in the XWiki developer's lexicon is going to inflict pain, however I don't see the real pain in keeping it. Certainly other names could be better and I might have chosen "root" to keep with unix standards of "Global Administrator Right" to explain that it's global to a farm.

But I don't think the self-explanitory nature of these names over "programming right" is adaquate reason to change.

Standard gage railroad track is 4 feet 8 and a half inches wide, certainly not the *best* width and indeed somewhat of an insane number, but the people who built the first trains were wagon makers and that was the width of the wagon axles because if they were not that width, they would break when running in the rutted stone roads left by the Romans, indeed that width dates all the way back to the width of a Roman war chariot... or so the story goes.

The point is that as much as existing standards might suck, "programming rights" is carved into every XWiki developer's mind just as "4 feet 8 and a half inches" is written in the ties, tunnels, switches and bridges all over the world and to propose a change to that you need a *really* good reason.

On 06/12/2015 09:02 AM, [email protected] wrote:

...

Hi devs,

With the intoduction of http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-12171 (Add a script right to manage script macro execution permissions) in 7.2, we should also think about renaming what we call "Programming Right" (PR for short) since "Script" and "Programming" are close. At least to change that in the UI (and possibly even at API level by introducing new methods ands deprecating old ones).

First step would be to find a new name. I can think of: * Privilege Right (nice thing is that PR is still valid ;)) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/privilege "a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most:". This would mean that people with the Privilege Right would be able to use Privileged APIs. * System Right * God Right

My preference goes to "Privilege" or "Privileged".

WDYT about 1) Changing the name 2) The new name to use if you agree with 1) ?

Thanks -Vincent

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

-- Satire is the escape hatch from the cycle of sorrow, hatred and violence. #JeSuisCharlie _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

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