[xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Capitalization rules
Hi devs, Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels (http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed. I’ve found this document from MSDN: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as... I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for Capitalization and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org. Example of labels: * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” WDYT? Thanks -Vincent
Hello, Here's my +1. I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :) Thanks, Manuel On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi devs,
Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
I’ve found this document from MSDN:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for Capitalization and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
Example of labels: * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
WDYT?
Thanks -Vincent _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the Translations? I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it, can create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note that certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems capitalizing all the words. In your example: * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or none, we cannot skip one. Thanks, Caty On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria <[email protected]> wrote:
Hello,
Here's my +1.
I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
Thanks, Manuel
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi devs,
Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
I’ve found this document from MSDN:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for Capitalization and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
Example of labels: * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
WDYT?
Thanks -Vincent _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Hi Caty, On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the Translations?
I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it, can create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note that certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems capitalizing all the words.
In your example: * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or none, we cannot skip one.
I’d be -1 for CSS since: * extra CPU work not required * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default" * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change! If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations (similar use case than if they wish to change some wording) Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding Capitalization). Thanks -Vincent
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
Hello,
Here's my +1.
I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
Thanks, Manuel
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [email protected] wrote:
Hi devs,
Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
I’ve found this document from MSDN:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for Capitalization and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
Example of labels: * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
WDYT?
Thanks -Vincent
The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the skin and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your solution we would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new format. Is a lengthy process. If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one language, thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally. The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel, all the other languages will look 'less professional'. Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase. Thanks, Caty On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caty,
On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ([email protected] (mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the Translations?
I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it, can create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note that certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems capitalizing all the words.
In your example: * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or none, we cannot skip one.
I’d be -1 for CSS since:
* extra CPU work not required * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default" * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change! If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations (similar use case than if they wish to change some wording)
Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding Capitalization).
Thanks -Vincent
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
Hello,
Here's my +1.
I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
Thanks, Manuel
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [email protected] wrote:
Hi devs,
Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
I’ve found this document from MSDN:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for
Capitalization
and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
Example of labels: * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
WDYT?
Thanks -Vincent
devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:14:50, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the skin and automatically we have all the translations fixed.
But our goal is not to capitalize all translations! It’s only to capitalize some (labels, column labels, titles, etc).
With your solution we would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new format. Is a lengthy process.
No we don’t deprecate anything, we just need to fix some translations.
If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one language, thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally.
It’s definitely -1 to for all languages since again each language has different capitalization rules.
The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel, all the other languages will look 'less professional’.
That’s one of the worst possible reason I’ve ever heard ;)
Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
What? You mean someone changed the “Add comment” label translation (for example) from “Add Comment” to “Add comment” when we switched to Flamingo? Are you really sure? Thanks -Vincent
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Hi Caty,
On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ([email protected] (mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the Translations?
I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it, can create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note that certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems capitalizing all the words.
In your example: * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or none, we cannot skip one.
I’d be -1 for CSS since:
* extra CPU work not required * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default" * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change! If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations (similar use case than if they wish to change some wording)
Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding Capitalization).
Thanks -Vincent
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
Hello,
Here's my +1.
I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
Thanks, Manuel
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [email protected] wrote:
Hi devs,
Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
I’ve found this document from MSDN:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for
Capitalization
and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
Example of labels: * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
WDYT?
Thanks -Vincent
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:22 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:14:50, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ([email protected] (mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the skin and automatically we have all the translations fixed.
But our goal is not to capitalize all translations! It’s only to capitalize some (labels, column labels, titles, etc).
With your solution we would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new format. Is a lengthy process.
No we don’t deprecate anything, we just need to fix some translations.
If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one language, thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally.
It’s definitely -1 to for all languages since again each language has different capitalization rules.
The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel, all the other languages will look 'less professional’.
That’s one of the worst possible reason I’ve ever heard ;)
Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
What? You mean someone changed the “Add comment” label translation (for example) from “Add Comment” to “Add comment” when we switched to Flamingo? Are you really sure?
I'm not saying someone changed something. I'm just saying that for many years we had 'ADD' or 'LOOK & FEEL' keys, were we used uppercase. Flamingo doesn't have this and this is why we observe now the capitalization problem. One solution would be to put back the uppercase rule from Colibri. It's just a though. Thanks, Caty
Thanks -Vincent
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Hi Caty,
On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ( [email protected] (mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the Translations?
I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it, can create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note that certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems capitalizing all the words.
In your example: * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or none, we cannot skip one.
I’d be -1 for CSS since:
* extra CPU work not required * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default" * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change! If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations (similar use case than if they wish to change some wording)
Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding Capitalization).
Thanks -Vincent
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
Hello,
Here's my +1.
I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
Thanks, Manuel
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [email protected] wrote:
Hi devs,
Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
I’ve found this document from MSDN:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for
Capitalization
and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
Example of labels: * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
WDYT?
Thanks -Vincent
devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Hi, Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have a lot of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a CSS rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent. Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri skin, as Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start modifying all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new translations (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do that. We don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches. Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple of strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise CSS itself is useless. +1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, button labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need to come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and what CSS classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will still be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can not catch with CSS. Thanks, Eduard On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:
The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the skin and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your solution we would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new format. Is a lengthy process.
If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one language, thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally. The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel, all the other languages will look 'less professional'.
Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caty,
On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ([email protected] (mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the Translations?
I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it, can create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note that certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems capitalizing all the words.
In your example: * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or none, we cannot skip one.
I’d be -1 for CSS since:
* extra CPU work not required * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default" * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change! If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations (similar use case than if they wish to change some wording)
Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding Capitalization).
Thanks -Vincent
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
Hello,
Here's my +1.
I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
Thanks, Manuel
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [email protected] wrote:
Hi devs,
Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
I’ve found this document from MSDN:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for
Capitalization
and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
Example of labels: * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
WDYT?
Thanks -Vincent
devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Let’s backtrack! The question I asked was NOT how do it! I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as... and make that our own rule ad publish it. Please try to answer that question. Thanks -Vincent On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
Hi,
Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have a lot of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a CSS rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent.
Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri skin, as Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start modifying all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new translations (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do that. We don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.
Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple of strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise CSS itself is useless.
+1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, button labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need to come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and what CSS classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will still be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can not catch with CSS.
Thanks, Eduard
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:
The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the skin and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your solution we would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new format. Is a lengthy process.
If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one language, thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally. The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel, all the other languages will look 'less professional'.
Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Hi Caty,
On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ([email protected] (mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the Translations?
I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it, can create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note that certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems capitalizing all the words.
In your example: * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or none, we cannot skip one.
I’d be -1 for CSS since:
* extra CPU work not required * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default" * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change! If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations (similar use case than if they wish to change some wording)
Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding Capitalization).
Thanks -Vincent
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
Hello,
Here's my +1.
I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
Thanks, Manuel
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [email protected] wrote:
Hi devs,
Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
I’ve found this document from MSDN:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for
Capitalization
and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
Example of labels: * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
WDYT?
Thanks -Vincent
devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:52:15, [email protected] ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
Let’s backtrack!
The question I asked was NOT how do it!
I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as... and make that our own rule ad publish it.
Let me reformulate because once more I forgot the English language: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as... for our English translations and make that our own rule ad publish it. Thanks -Vincent
Please try to answer that question.
Thanks -Vincent
On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
Hi,
Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have a lot of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a CSS rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent.
Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri skin, as Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start modifying all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new translations (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do that. We don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.
Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple of strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise CSS itself is useless.
+1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, button labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need to come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and what CSS classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will still be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can not catch with CSS.
Thanks, Eduard
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:
The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the skin and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your solution we would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new format. Is a lengthy process.
If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one language, thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally. The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel, all the other languages will look 'less professional'.
Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Hi Caty,
On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ([email protected] (mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the Translations?
I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it, can create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note that certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems capitalizing all the words.
In your example: * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or none, we cannot skip one.
I’d be -1 for CSS since:
* extra CPU work not required * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default" * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change! If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations (similar use case than if they wish to change some wording)
Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding Capitalization).
Thanks -Vincent
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
Hello,
Here's my +1.
I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
Thanks, Manuel
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> Hi devs, > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed. > > I’ve found this document from MSDN: > >
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
> > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for Capitalization > and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org. > > Example of labels: > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > > WDYT? > > Thanks > -Vincent
The whole side-discussion started because we can not agree to those rules before we agree how we do it: manually or automatically. If we agree on automatically, then we can not, implicitly, agree on those rules. Thanks, Eduard On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:52 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
Let’s backtrack!
The question I asked was NOT how do it!
I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as... and make that our own rule ad publish it.
Please try to answer that question.
Thanks -Vincent
On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru ([email protected](mailto: [email protected])) wrote:
Hi,
Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have a lot of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a CSS rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent.
Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri skin, as Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start modifying all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new translations (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do that. We don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.
Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple of strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise CSS itself is useless.
+1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, button labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need to come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and what CSS classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will still be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can not catch with CSS.
Thanks, Eduard
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:
The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the skin and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your solution we would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new format. Is a lengthy process.
If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one language, thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally. The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel, all the other languages will look 'less professional'.
Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Hi Caty,
On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ( [email protected] (mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the Translations?
I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it, can create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note that certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems capitalizing all the words.
In your example: * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or none, we cannot skip one.
I’d be -1 for CSS since:
* extra CPU work not required * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default" * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change! If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations (similar use case than if they wish to change some wording)
Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding Capitalization).
Thanks -Vincent
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
Hello,
Here's my +1.
I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
Thanks, Manuel
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> Hi devs, > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed. > > I’ve found this document from MSDN: > >
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
> > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for Capitalization > and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org. > > Example of labels: > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > > WDYT? > > Thanks > -Vincent
devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:55:52, Eduard Moraru ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
The whole side-discussion started because we can not agree to those rules before we agree how we do it: manually or automatically. If we agree on automatically, then we can not, implicitly, agree on those rules.
The fact that it’s automatic or manual doesn’t change a single thing about the rule. This is about the English language and how it’s applied to web pages, nothing to do with XWiki specifically. Do we want to follow the English language best practices, yes or no? I was expecting it to be a no brainer and everyone saying yes of course. I’m asking a last time: do you agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as... for the English language and make that our rule and publish it? I personally agree about it. Once we agree about it then: - We will publish it at dev.xwiki.org and on l10n.xwiki.org too - When translators write translations in English they’ll need to follow it (if they don’t it’ll be called a bug that will need to be fixed) - We can optionally (if possible, ATM it’s not) decide to automatically implement it using CSS Thanks -Vincent
Thanks, Eduard
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:52 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Let’s backtrack!
The question I asked was NOT how do it!
I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as... and make that our own rule ad publish it.
Please try to answer that question.
Thanks -Vincent
On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru ([email protected](mailto: [email protected])) wrote:
Hi,
Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have a lot of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a CSS rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent.
Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri skin, as Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start modifying all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new translations (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do that. We don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.
Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple of strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise CSS itself is useless.
+1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, button labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need to come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and what CSS classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will still be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can not catch with CSS.
Thanks, Eduard
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:
The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the skin and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your solution we would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new format. Is a lengthy process.
If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one language, thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally. The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel, all the other languages will look 'less professional'.
Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Hi Caty,
On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ( [email protected] (mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the Translations?
I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it, can create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note that certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems capitalizing all the words.
In your example: * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or none, we cannot skip one.
I’d be -1 for CSS since:
* extra CPU work not required * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default" * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change! If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations (similar use case than if they wish to change some wording)
Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding Capitalization).
Thanks -Vincent
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
> Hello, > > Here's my +1. > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :) > > Thanks, > Manuel > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [email protected] > wrote: > > > Hi devs, > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed. > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN: > > > > >
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
> > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for Capitalization > > and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org. > > > > Example of labels: > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > > > > WDYT? > > > > Thanks > > -Vincent
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:08 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:55:52, Eduard Moraru ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
The whole side-discussion started because we can not agree to those rules before we agree how we do it: manually or automatically. If we agree on automatically, then we can not, implicitly, agree on those rules.
The fact that it’s automatic or manual doesn’t change a single thing about the rule.
This is about the English language and how it’s applied to web pages, nothing to do with XWiki specifically. Do we want to follow the English language best practices, yes or no? I was expecting it to be a no brainer and everyone saying yes of course.
I’m asking a last time: do you agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as... for the English language and make that our rule and publish it?
+1, those rules look good to me.
I personally agree about it.
Once we agree about it then: - We will publish it at dev.xwiki.org and on l10n.xwiki.org too - When translators write translations in English they’ll need to follow it (if they don’t it’ll be called a bug that will need to be fixed)
- We can optionally (if possible, ATM it’s not) decide to automatically implement it using CSS
I don't think we can automate this with CSS. Thanks, Marius
Thanks -Vincent
Thanks, Eduard
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:52 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Let’s backtrack!
The question I asked was NOT how do it!
I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as... and make that our own rule ad publish it.
Please try to answer that question.
Thanks -Vincent
On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru ([email protected](mailto: [email protected])) wrote:
Hi,
Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have a lot of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a CSS rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent.
Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri skin, as Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start modifying all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new translations (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do that. We don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.
Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple of strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise CSS itself is useless.
+1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, button labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need to come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and what CSS classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will still be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can not catch with CSS.
Thanks, Eduard
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:
The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the skin and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your solution we would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new format. Is a lengthy process.
If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one language, thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally. The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel, all the other languages will look 'less professional'.
Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Hi Caty,
On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ( [email protected] (mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
> Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the > Translations? > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it, can > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note that > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems capitalizing > all the words. > > In your example: > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or none, > we cannot skip one.
I’d be -1 for CSS since:
* extra CPU work not required * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default" * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change! If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations (similar use case than if they wish to change some wording)
Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding Capitalization).
Thanks -Vincent
> Thanks, > Caty > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > Here's my +1. > > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :) > > > > Thanks, > > Manuel > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [email protected] > > wrote: > > > > > Hi devs, > > > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed. > > > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN: > > > > > > > >
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
> > > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for Capitalization > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org. > > > > > > Example of labels: > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > > > > > > WDYT? > > > > > > Thanks > > > -Vincent
devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
+1 for the rules. Watch out for falling bugs ahead! :) Thanks, Eduard On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea < [email protected]> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:08 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:55:52, Eduard Moraru ([email protected](mailto:
[email protected])) wrote:
The whole side-discussion started because we can not agree to those
rules
before we agree how we do it: manually or automatically. If we agree on automatically, then we can not, implicitly, agree on those rules.
The fact that it’s automatic or manual doesn’t change a single thing about the rule.
This is about the English language and how it’s applied to web pages, nothing to do with XWiki specifically. Do we want to follow the English language best practices, yes or no? I was expecting it to be a no brainer and everyone saying yes of course.
I’m asking a last time: do you agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as... for the English language and make that our rule and publish it?
+1, those rules look good to me.
I personally agree about it.
Once we agree about it then: - We will publish it at dev.xwiki.org and on l10n.xwiki.org too - When translators write translations in English they’ll need to follow
it (if they don’t it’ll be called a bug that will need to be fixed)
- We can optionally (if possible, ATM it’s not) decide to automatically implement it using CSS
I don't think we can automate this with CSS.
Thanks, Marius
Thanks -Vincent
Thanks, Eduard
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:52 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Let’s backtrack!
The question I asked was NOT how do it!
I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined
at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as... and
make that our own rule ad publish it.
Please try to answer that question.
Thanks -Vincent
On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru ([email protected] (mailto: [email protected])) wrote:
Hi,
Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have a lot of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a CSS rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent.
Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri skin, as Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start modifying all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new translations (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do that. We don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.
Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple of strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise CSS itself is useless.
+1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, button labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need to come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and what CSS classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will still be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can not catch with CSS.
Thanks, Eduard
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:
The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the skin and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your solution we would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new format. Is a lengthy process.
If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one language, thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally. The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel, all the other languages will look 'less professional'.
Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> Hi Caty, > > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ( [email protected] > (mailto:[email protected])) wrote: > > > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the > > Translations? > > > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it, > can > > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note > that > > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems capitalizing > > all the words. > > > > In your example: > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or none, > > we cannot skip one. > > I’d be -1 for CSS since: > > * extra CPU work not required > * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default" > * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change! > If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations (similar > use case than if they wish to change some wording) > > Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing > anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding > Capitalization). > > Thanks > -Vincent > > > > Thanks, > > Caty > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote: > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > Here's my +1. > > > > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :) > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Manuel > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [email protected] > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi devs, > > > > > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good > idea > > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed. > > > > > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN: > > > > > > > > > > > >
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
> > > > > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for > Capitalization > > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org. > > > > > > > > Example of labels: > > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > > > > > > > > WDYT? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > -Vincent
devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
* I don't agree with the rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428%28v=vs.85%2... and I certainly wouldn't want to have that link in our documentation. * I don't agree that we want to vote a standard just for a SPECIFIC language. I would prefer to find some rules that apply to all the languages. This being said: * Each sentence should start with the first letter of the word in uppercase (Sentence cap). This means that LiveTable actions like 'delete', etc. needs to be fixed. * The rule about first and last doesn't sound very well to me (Title cap), and anyway it means we would need to do it manually, so it's a case by case scenario. What I would do instead is: instead of capitalizing random words in headings, I would capitalize just entity names (Wiki, Space, Page, Comment, etc.), examples: - 'Add Page' - add is the first word in the sentence it's uppercase; page is an entity is capitalized but even this 'rule' can be misleading and confusing. So actually here we are not discussing Capitalization, but 'Title cap' rule, since Capitalization is definitely a no. I would prefer a 'Sentence cap' rule with some exceptions for entities as described above. Thanks, Caty On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:08 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:55:52, Eduard Moraru ([email protected](mailto: [email protected])) wrote:
The whole side-discussion started because we can not agree to those rules before we agree how we do it: manually or automatically. If we agree on automatically, then we can not, implicitly, agree on those rules.
The fact that it’s automatic or manual doesn’t change a single thing about the rule.
This is about the English language and how it’s applied to web pages, nothing to do with XWiki specifically. Do we want to follow the English language best practices, yes or no? I was expecting it to be a no brainer and everyone saying yes of course.
I’m asking a last time: do you agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as... for the English language and make that our rule and publish it?
I personally agree about it.
Once we agree about it then: - We will publish it at dev.xwiki.org and on l10n.xwiki.org too - When translators write translations in English they’ll need to follow it (if they don’t it’ll be called a bug that will need to be fixed) - We can optionally (if possible, ATM it’s not) decide to automatically implement it using CSS
Thanks -Vincent
Thanks, Eduard
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:52 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Let’s backtrack!
The question I asked was NOT how do it!
I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as... and
make that our own rule ad publish it.
Please try to answer that question.
Thanks -Vincent
On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru ([email protected] (mailto: [email protected])) wrote:
Hi,
Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have a lot of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a CSS rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent.
Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri skin, as Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start modifying all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new translations (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do that. We don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.
Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple of strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise CSS itself is useless.
+1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, button labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need to come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and what CSS classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will still be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can not catch with CSS.
Thanks, Eduard
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:
The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the skin and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your solution we would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new format. Is a lengthy process.
If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one language, thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally. The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel, all the other languages will look 'less professional'.
Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Hi Caty,
On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ( [email protected] (mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
> Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the > Translations? > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it, can > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note that > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems capitalizing > all the words. > > In your example: > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or none, > we cannot skip one.
I’d be -1 for CSS since:
* extra CPU work not required * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default" * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change! If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations (similar use case than if they wish to change some wording)
Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding Capitalization).
Thanks -Vincent
> Thanks, > Caty > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > Here's my +1. > > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :) > > > > Thanks, > > Manuel > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [email protected] > > wrote: > > > > > Hi devs, > > > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed. > > > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN: > > > > > > > >
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
> > > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for Capitalization > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org. > > > > > > Example of labels: > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > > > > > > WDYT? > > > > > > Thanks > > > -Vincent
devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:26 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:
* I don't agree with the rules defined at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428%28v=vs.85%2... and I certainly wouldn't want to have that link in our documentation. * I don't agree that we want to vote a standard just for a SPECIFIC language. I would prefer to find some rules that apply to all the languages.
This being said: * Each sentence should start with the first letter of the word in uppercase (Sentence cap). This means that LiveTable actions like 'delete', etc. needs to be fixed. * The rule about first and last doesn't sound very well to me (Title cap), and anyway it means we would need to do it manually, so it's a case by case scenario. What I would do instead is: instead of capitalizing random words in headings, I would capitalize just entity names (Wiki, Space, Page, Comment, etc.), examples: - 'Add Page' - add is the first word in the sentence it's uppercase; page is an entity is capitalized but even this 'rule' can be misleading and confusing.
So actually here we are not discussing Capitalization, but 'Title cap' rule, since Capitalization is definitely a no. I would prefer a 'Sentence cap' rule with some exceptions for entities as described above.
Note that I also agree that Sentence Case is the safest and (AFAIK) cross-language rule we could enforce. On a technical note, it is also probably the only rule we *can* do automatically, with CSS: p:first-child { text-transform:uppercase; } So, if it is an option, I would rather we do that instead of (or at least additionally to) the proposed Microsoft (manual) guidelines. Thanks, Eduard Thanks,
Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:08 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:55:52, Eduard Moraru ([email protected](mailto: [email protected])) wrote:
The whole side-discussion started because we can not agree to those
rules
before we agree how we do it: manually or automatically. If we agree on automatically, then we can not, implicitly, agree on those rules.
The fact that it’s automatic or manual doesn’t change a single thing about the rule.
This is about the English language and how it’s applied to web pages, nothing to do with XWiki specifically. Do we want to follow the English language best practices, yes or no? I was expecting it to be a no brainer and everyone saying yes of course.
I’m asking a last time: do you agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
for the English language and make that our rule and publish it?
I personally agree about it.
Once we agree about it then: - We will publish it at dev.xwiki.org and on l10n.xwiki.org too - When translators write translations in English they’ll need to follow it (if they don’t it’ll be called a bug that will need to be fixed) - We can optionally (if possible, ATM it’s not) decide to automatically implement it using CSS
Thanks -Vincent
Thanks, Eduard
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:52 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Let’s backtrack!
The question I asked was NOT how do it!
I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
and
make that our own rule ad publish it.
Please try to answer that question.
Thanks -Vincent
On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru ([email protected] (mailto: [email protected])) wrote:
Hi,
Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have a lot of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a CSS rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent.
Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri skin, as Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start modifying all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new translations (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do that. We don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.
Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple of strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise CSS itself is useless.
+1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, button labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need to come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and what CSS classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will still be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can not catch with CSS.
Thanks, Eduard
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:
The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the skin and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your solution we would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new format. Is a lengthy process.
If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one language, thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally. The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel, all the other languages will look 'less professional'.
Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> Hi Caty, > > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ( [email protected] > (mailto:[email protected])) wrote: > > > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the > > Translations? > > > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it, > can > > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note > that > > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems capitalizing > > all the words. > > > > In your example: > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or none, > > we cannot skip one. > > I’d be -1 for CSS since: > > * extra CPU work not required > * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default" > * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change! > If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations (similar > use case than if they wish to change some wording) > > Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing > anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding > Capitalization). > > Thanks > -Vincent > > > > Thanks, > > Caty > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote: > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > Here's my +1. > > > > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :) > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Manuel > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [email protected] > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi devs, > > > > > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good > idea > > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed. > > > > > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN: > > > > > > > > > > > >
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
> > > > > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for > Capitalization > > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org. > > > > > > > > Example of labels: > > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > > > > > > > > WDYT? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > -Vincent
devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
On 12 Nov 2014 at 12:27:09, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
* I don't agree with the rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428%28v=vs.85%2...
What don’t you agree with?
and I certainly wouldn't want to have that link in our documentation.
Why not? (Although I didn’t suggest to have the link but the content of the link - we should cite our sources though).
* I don't agree that we want to vote a standard just for a SPECIFIC language.
Wy not?
I would prefer to find some rules that apply to all the languages.
You can wish as much as you want but this is just plain daydreaming… Each language has different rules. Period. But more importantly it’s not up to us (XWiki Dev Team) to decide on this as we don’t want to maintain translations. We only maintain the English version. The rest is done by the community and each community around a language should define the rules they wish to use for that language. There are some provisioned pages on l10n for discussing language-specific rules.
This being said: * Each sentence should start with the first letter of the word in uppercase (Sentence cap).
I’m not even sure this is true for all languages but let’s assume it is for now.
This means that LiveTable actions like 'delete', etc. needs to be fixed. * The rule about first and last doesn't sound very well to me (Title cap),
Why not?
and anyway it means we would need to do it manually, so it's a case by case scenario.
It’s not a case by case, the rule is simple and defined here: "Capitalize the first letter of all words in between, with the exception of articles (a, an, and the); coordinating conjunctions (and, but, for, nor, or, so, and yet); and prepositions of four letters or fewer (at, for, with, into, etc.).”
What I would do instead is: instead of capitalizing random words in headings, I would capitalize just entity names (Wiki, Space, Page, Comment, etc.), examples: - 'Add Page' - add is the first word in the sentence it's uppercase; page is an entity is capitalized but even this 'rule' can be misleading and confusing.
So you don’t agree to follow what seems to be commonly accepted in English? (that’s what i’ve personally always used for labels/titles) Instead you prefer something arbitrary that you personally make up and that you consider yourself misleading and confusing?
So actually here we are not discussing Capitalization, but 'Title cap' rule, since Capitalization is definitely a no.
Sorry you lost me again…. Why is Capitalization a no? Capitalization: http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/capital.asp "Capitalization is the writing of a word with its first letter in uppercase and the remaining letters in lowercase."
I would prefer a 'Sentence cap' rule with some exceptions for entities as described above.
For example for the “More action” menu entry we currently have: - Export - Print preview - View Source - Share by email … And for the Edit menu: - Wiki - WYSIWYG - Inline form - Access Rights ... From your answer I understand you wouldn't like having the following: - Print Preview - View Source - Share by Email - Inline Form - Access Rights but instead you’d prefer: - Print preview - View source - Share by email - Inline form - Access rights Is that correct? Thanks -Vincent PS: I’d also suggest that you look around on your computer in menu entries/labels (in chrome/firefox etc) and you’ll quickly see that it’s a commonly accepted rule to use “Title Caps” in menu entries, labels, titles, etc. I really don’t understand what you don’t like about it (you didn’t explain).
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:08 PM, [email protected] wrote:
On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:55:52, Eduard Moraru ([email protected](mailto: [email protected])) wrote:
The whole side-discussion started because we can not agree to those rules before we agree how we do it: manually or automatically. If we agree on automatically, then we can not, implicitly, agree on those rules.
The fact that it’s automatic or manual doesn’t change a single thing about the rule.
This is about the English language and how it’s applied to web pages, nothing to do with XWiki specifically. Do we want to follow the English language best practices, yes or no? I was expecting it to be a no brainer and everyone saying yes of course.
I’m asking a last time: do you agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as... for the English language and make that our rule and publish it?
I personally agree about it.
Once we agree about it then: - We will publish it at dev.xwiki.org and on l10n.xwiki.org too - When translators write translations in English they’ll need to follow it (if they don’t it’ll be called a bug that will need to be fixed) - We can optionally (if possible, ATM it’s not) decide to automatically implement it using CSS
Thanks -Vincent
Thanks, Eduard
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:52 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Let’s backtrack!
The question I asked was NOT how do it!
I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as... and
make that our own rule ad publish it.
Please try to answer that question.
Thanks -Vincent
On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru ([email protected] (mailto: [email protected])) wrote:
Hi,
Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have a lot of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a CSS rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent.
Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri skin, as Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start modifying all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new translations (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do that. We don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.
Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple of strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise CSS itself is useless.
+1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, button labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need to come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and what CSS classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will still be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can not catch with CSS.
Thanks, Eduard
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:
The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the skin and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your solution we would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new format. Is a lengthy process.
If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one language, thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally. The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel, all the other languages will look 'less professional'.
Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> Hi Caty, > > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ( [email protected] > (mailto:[email protected])) wrote: > > > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the > > Translations? > > > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it, > can > > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note > that > > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems capitalizing > > all the words. > > > > In your example: > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or none, > > we cannot skip one. > > I’d be -1 for CSS since: > > * extra CPU work not required > * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default" > * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change! > If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations (similar > use case than if they wish to change some wording) > > Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing > anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding > Capitalization). > > Thanks > -Vincent > > > > Thanks, > > Caty > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote: > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > Here's my +1. > > > > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :) > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Manuel > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [email protected] > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi devs, > > > > > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good > idea > > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed. > > > > > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN: > > > > > > > > > > > >
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
> > > > > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for > Capitalization > > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org. > > > > > > > > Example of labels: > > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > > > > > > > > WDYT? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > -Vincent
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:08 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:55:52, Eduard Moraru ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
The whole side-discussion started because we can not agree to those rules before we agree how we do it: manually or automatically. If we agree on automatically, then we can not, implicitly, agree on those rules.
The fact that it’s automatic or manual doesn’t change a single thing about the rule.
This is about the English language and how it’s applied to web pages, nothing to do with XWiki specifically. Do we want to follow the English language best practices, yes or no? I was expecting it to be a no brainer and everyone saying yes of course.
I’m asking a last time: do you agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as... for the English language and make that our rule and publish it?
I personally agree about it.
Once we agree about it then: - We will publish it at dev.xwiki.org and on l10n.xwiki.org too - When translators write translations in English they’ll need to follow it (if they don’t it’ll be called a bug that will need to be fixed) - We can optionally (if possible, ATM it’s not) decide to automatically implement it using CSS
Note that there is usually not english work going on in http://l10n.xwiki.org. In our case all that goes directly to git.
Thanks -Vincent
Thanks, Eduard
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:52 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Let’s backtrack!
The question I asked was NOT how do it!
I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as... and make that our own rule ad publish it.
Please try to answer that question.
Thanks -Vincent
On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru ([email protected](mailto: [email protected])) wrote:
Hi,
Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have a lot of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a CSS rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent.
Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri skin, as Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start modifying all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new translations (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do that. We don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.
Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple of strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise CSS itself is useless.
+1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, button labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need to come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and what CSS classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will still be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can not catch with CSS.
Thanks, Eduard
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:
The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the skin and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your solution we would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new format. Is a lengthy process.
If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one language, thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally. The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel, all the other languages will look 'less professional'.
Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase.
Thanks, Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Hi Caty,
On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ( [email protected] (mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
> Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the > Translations? > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't like it, can > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also note that > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems capitalizing > all the words. > > In your example: > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or none, > we cannot skip one.
I’d be -1 for CSS since:
* extra CPU work not required * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default" * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change! If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations (similar use case than if they wish to change some wording)
Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding Capitalization).
Thanks -Vincent
> Thanks, > Caty > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > Here's my +1. > > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :) > > > > Thanks, > > Manuel > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [email protected] > > wrote: > > > > > Hi devs, > > > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed. > > > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN: > > > > > > > >
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
> > > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for Capitalization > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org. > > > > > > Example of labels: > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > > > > > > WDYT? > > > > > > Thanks > > > -Vincent
devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Thomas Mortagne
Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the Translations?
Definitely not. E.g. for Latvian capital letter (if other letters are lowercase, of course) is used only at the beginning of sentence and for proper nouns (names). Valdis
Hello,
Here's my +1.
I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
Thanks, Manuel
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi devs,
Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
I’ve found this document from MSDN:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for Capitalization and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
Example of labels: * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
WDYT?
Thanks -Vincent
...
Hi Valdis, On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Valdis Vītoliņš <[email protected]> wrote:
Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the Translations?
Definitely not. E.g. for Latvian capital letter (if other letters are lowercase, of course) is used only at the beginning of sentence and for proper nouns (names).
We are talking about titles and labels here, not about sentences that require language-specific rules. Does you previous comment also apply to titles and labels in Latvian? Examples: "Document Name" "Space Name" "Page Title" etc... Thanks, Eduard
Valdis
Hello,
Here's my +1.
I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :)
Thanks, Manuel
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, [email protected] < [email protected]> wrote:
Hi devs,
Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
I’ve found this document from MSDN:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for
Capitalization
and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
Example of labels: * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
WDYT?
Thanks -Vincent ...
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Hi Valdis,
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Valdis Vītoliņš <[email protected]> wrote: > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the > Translations?
Definitely not. E.g. for Latvian capital letter (if other letters are lowercase, of course) is used only at the beginning of sentence and for proper nouns (names).
We are talking about titles and labels here, not about sentences that require language-specific rules.
Does you previous comment also apply to titles and labels in Latvian?
Examples:
"Document Name"
"Space Name"
"Page Title"
etc...
Thanks, Eduard
Yes, in difference with English, in Latvian the same rules apply also for titles. E.g. look at news portal: http://www.ir.lv/ Valdis
Hi, 2014-11-12 9:21 GMT+01:00 [email protected] <[email protected]>:
Hi devs,
Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
I’ve found this document from MSDN:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for Capitalization and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
Example of labels: * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
WDYT?
The rule misses some exceptions, for brand names, abbreviations, etc. I don't know if it should be considered an issue or not, but normally whatever the location (sentence, title, button...), in english you should write "iPhone", "eBay", "mRNA", and not "Iphone" or "IPhone" or "Ebay" or "MRNA" or "Mnra". I suppose it would be true of any language, and that a brand name would be written using its original alphabet and case - but I'm really not sure of this.
Thanks -Vincent _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Hi Jeremie, On 12 Nov 2014 at 16:22:28, Jeremie BOUSQUET ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
Hi,
2014-11-12 9:21 GMT+01:00 [email protected] :
Hi devs,
Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
I’ve found this document from MSDN:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for Capitalization and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
Example of labels: * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
WDYT?
The rule misses some exceptions, for brand names, abbreviations, etc. I don't know if it should be considered an issue or not, but normally whatever the location (sentence, title, button...), in english you should write "iPhone", "eBay", "mRNA", and not "Iphone" or "IPhone" or "Ebay" or "MRNA" or "Mnra". I suppose it would be true of any language, and that a brand name would be written using its original alphabet and case - but I'm really not sure of this.
Sure, the full Capitalization rules and details are here for the English language: http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/capital.asp I didn’t want to go into minute details for exceptions, just quickly agree that for labels, menu entries, titles, etc we would use “title caps”. I thought it would be a no brainer since everyone does just that… seems I was wrong :) Just to be clear again, the status is that right now we have in the same menu entry and I wanted to agree on fixing this: - Print preview - View Source Thanks -Vincent
Thanks -Vincent
2014-11-12 16:25 GMT+01:00 [email protected] <[email protected]>:
Hi Jeremie,
On 12 Nov 2014 at 16:22:28, Jeremie BOUSQUET ([email protected] (mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
Hi,
2014-11-12 9:21 GMT+01:00 [email protected] :
Hi devs,
Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
I’ve found this document from MSDN:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for
Capitalization
and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
Example of labels: * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
WDYT?
The rule misses some exceptions, for brand names, abbreviations, etc. I don't know if it should be considered an issue or not, but normally whatever the location (sentence, title, button...), in english you should write "iPhone", "eBay", "mRNA", and not "Iphone" or "IPhone" or "Ebay" or "MRNA" or "Mnra". I suppose it would be true of any language, and that a brand name would be written using its original alphabet and case - but I'm really not sure of this.
Sure, the full Capitalization rules and details are here for the English language: http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/capital.asp
I didn’t want to go into minute details for exceptions, just quickly agree that for labels, menu entries, titles, etc we would use “title caps”. I thought it would be a no brainer since everyone does just that… seems I was wrong :)
Yes of course there are many other exceptions in English, some seem less important than others. Anyway "title caps" does not follow English capitalization rules, so there's no real reason to take into account all exceptions coming from English language. I took this example (brands) because it could be common to many (all ?) languages.
Just to be clear again, the status is that right now we have in the same menu entry and I wanted to agree on fixing this: - Print preview - View Source
For sure I understand that you want to fix it ! :) Maybe your proposal would be more easily accepted, if it was limited to using title caps only for menu entries and buttons ? (which usually are clearly and obviously not sentences, which is not always true for titles and labels).
Thanks -Vincent
Thanks -Vincent
devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Here are several resources I’ve found on guidelines for capitalization of UI elements: * http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as... * https://developercenter.vmware.com/web/standards/-/capitalization-of-ui-elem... * https://developer.gnome.org/hig/stable/writing-style.html.en * https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/UserExperience/Concept... They all seem to roughly say the same thing… Thanks -Vincent On 12 Nov 2014 at 09:21:15, [email protected] ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
Hi devs,
Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels (http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
I’ve found this document from MSDN: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for Capitalization and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
Example of labels: * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
WDYT?
Thanks -Vincent
2014-11-12 16:47 GMT+01:00 [email protected] <[email protected]>:
Here are several resources I’ve found on guidelines for capitalization of UI elements:
* http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as... * https://developercenter.vmware.com/web/standards/-/capitalization-of-ui-elem... * https://developer.gnome.org/hig/stable/writing-style.html.en * https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/UserExperience/Concept...
They all seem to roughly say the same thing…
That one is interesting also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_case#Headings_and_publication_titles To go in your direction, "title case" seems to be quite uncommon in languages other than english (and even US english).
Thanks -Vincent
On 12 Nov 2014 at 09:21:15, [email protected] ([email protected](mailto: [email protected])) wrote:
Hi devs,
Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
I’ve found this document from MSDN:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for
Capitalization and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
Example of labels: * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
WDYT?
Thanks -Vincent
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Looks like a pretty common practice indeed (and It's also obvious when I just look at software I'm using). I also agree that it simply does not make sense to decide a rule for all languages. All languages have different rules, that's just how it is so there is no point in fighting it. There should a written rule for English that we follow and translators should decide some other rules language by language and documented on http://l10n.xwiki.org (and by the way they dud not waited for this discussion to do it). On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 4:47 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
Here are several resources I’ve found on guidelines for capitalization of UI elements:
* http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as... * https://developercenter.vmware.com/web/standards/-/capitalization-of-ui-elem... * https://developer.gnome.org/hig/stable/writing-style.html.en * https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/UserExperience/Concept...
They all seem to roughly say the same thing…
Thanks -Vincent
On 12 Nov 2014 at 09:21:15, [email protected] ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
Hi devs,
Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels (http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed.
I’ve found this document from MSDN: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).as...
I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for Capitalization and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org.
Example of labels: * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
WDYT?
Thanks -Vincent
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Thomas Mortagne
participants (8)
-
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) -
Eduard Moraru -
Jeremie BOUSQUET -
Manuel Smeria -
Marius Dumitru Florea -
Thomas Mortagne -
Valdis Vītoliņš -
vincent＠massol.net