[xwiki-devs] [Vote] Make the colibri skin the default one in XE 2.0 RC1
Hi Thibaut, thanks for your feedback, we need more of it even if we sometimes welcome it a bit roughly :-) On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 2:17 AM, Thibaut DEVERAUX <[email protected]
wrote:
To be more precise, personas :
Jo, Know what is a wiki.
"Where is the "edit button??? Ho, at the top ! "
Mike Don't know what is a wiki
"What can I do now?" Mike is looking arond the page, looking fo something logical. Mike may not notice the edit button since he is looking near the content. Now iimagine Mike sees the edit button. (Interesting : If he scroll he will se that the bar is scrolling to so it may help him to notice it) "So there is an edit link, I gess I will edit somehing, but what?" Mike click on the edit button. It open the editor with the content of the page. It take a few miliseconds to mike to understand. "Ho ok, this is editing the content of the page."
9 lines for mike...
If the edit button btton was near the content mike would have nticed it more easily. Also He would have linked it more easily with the fact it is editing the content.
This is what makes the difference between the two designs...
I happen to agree about the fact that the page action buttons should be located in the content area of the page. Additionally, power users can also get accustomed to keyboard shortcuts and they're even better than the non-moving top bar: 1. fingers don't need to leave the keyboard -> faster 2. always available wherever you are on the page So this global discussion could go on for ages before we come to an ideal solution :-) We'll definitely keep working on improving XWiki's UI / UX in the coming releases (XE 2.1 is scheduled for the end of the year) and sharing the work with the community in order to assess all options and come to an optimal choice. Many corporate users are not familiar with wikis at all and we'll explore all the ways to make the UI / UX easier to understand and use for them. We'll be looking for your feedback during that time and the 2 mails you just wrote will definitely be useful. Now when it comes to releasing XWiki Enterprise 2.0 with or without colibri, I'm definitely in favor of using Colibri. As Vincent stated it, the new skin: - Doesn't have drawbacks toucan doesn't already have - the action bar is in the same location - all important items are in the same location -> no new UX issues (no regressions) - Brings a lot of improvements - scrolling issue fixed - ability to change colors and select a theme - panels no longer go up to the top of the page -> allows for more flexible layouts - new visual identity which is an important part of XWiki Enterprise 2.0 - the page title is displayed automatically (we get a lot of strong feedback from our corporate users on this and they will like it a lot - even though we need to fix the double title issue on a number of pages) So I don't see a compelling reason not to use it. You're right about the fact that it means splitting XWiki's renovation in 2 (new look today, new ergonomics tomorrow) but this isn't an issue by itself as long as we keep working on improving it in the future. Thanks for your feedback, Guillaume
2009/9/2 Thibaut DEVERAUX <[email protected]>
Ho that's it. It is a design decision based about scrolling. I forgot this point.
So I understand now. Yet I still have some remarks about this because what you choose now is not neutral at all. I don't say it is good or bad. I say everybody have to understand the implications.
/***************************** Disclaimer : All of this is mainly theorical, UX is not an exact science when you can't make tests. Also I can be biaised by my own eperience (I'm definitivly not a newbee user, more probably a geek user). The only manner to really be sure about it is, like usual, to make tests on a few real newbee users... *****************************/
Situation :
Just imagine you are in a supermarket and you search for butter.
First of all you assume butter is somewhere in the food aera.
Then you may think that butter is with all prooducts based on milk.
Also it should be in a freezer aera.
So you will find easily the butter.
Information architecture and ergonomy use a lot a methode called "card sorting" to create such logic aeras. They write the elements of the interface on paper. Then they ask people to group card they think to be linked. Then they make stats on groups to define an architecture of elements grouped in a logic way.
More information : French : http://www.ergolab.net/articles/tri-cartes-ergonomie-web.php English : http://www.boxesandarrows.com/view/card_sorting_a_definitive_guide
You understand, I think, what I mean. In a "logic aeras" way the edit button and all what is related specifically to the content on the page should be near the page. (I dont mind it is moving or not, since it is in the content aera)
Ok. Now, you will say me that anyone found a solution to get at the same time the content related links near the content and at the same time having the content related links always accessible. So : "the menu becomes inaccessible once you scroll down".
This is right. So they're is a deal...
Will I choose something :
* Efficient ? Quicly accessible user bar.
* Newbee friendly ? Put the information where they will search it.
It really depends on the targeted users :
* If users know the should be an edit button somewhere, choose something effcient. * If users will use the wiki all the days choose something efficient. / * If firms have a problematic of adoption and at the same time a lot of people not skilled in computers choose something newbee friendly. * If yo want anybody can contribute quicly, even if not at ease with computers choose something newbee friendly.
For my part, not knowing who are the personas, I would have choosen the version where the content related actions are in the content aera because : * Imo and according to what I read, scrolling back to someting he has already noticed is not the greatest problem for casual users. * A newbee oriented design avoid getting people lost since a regular users design only deserve regular users confort.
Yet I guess the main clients xwiki are people who have to use regulary the tool or people who know that they here to edit page and that it can be done cliking on an "edit" button somewhere on the page.
So... Imo this decision is not about a blind vote in a mailing list where evryone is biaised by the fact he know the tool. This decision is to :
* Have its implications evaluated. Best by tests, else by brainstorming like we are doing. * Being linked with political and marketing orientations. Project leader, marketing personas, community... I don't know who....
2009/9/1 Sergiu Dumitriu <[email protected]>
Thibaut DEVERAUX wrote:
The skin is still the provisory skin isn't it ?
I would prefer to wait for the nice version being programmed.
I think the provisory version has no real advantage on the old one. It is the same information architecture (worst indeed) with only the minimalist layout as a plus.
Imo the minimalist layout is made to work with the exellent ergonomics from first Caty versions. This is what makes it emotionaly coherent. So I would prefer to wait the skin being developed.
Actually, one of the main reasons why the menu had been moved (at the expense of loosing permanent access to it) was to eliminate the flickering effect when scrolling. Now that a community member provided a nice fix for this issue, it is possible that we will end up not changing the layout in that direction after all.
As Vincent said, this skin has the great advantage of being easy to change, and we need this in 2.0 . Please let us know what are the specific bad points from your perspective, what you think is worse than in the previous skin, and what makes the proposed layout (where the menu becomes inaccessible once you scroll down) have better ergonomics than the current one, where you have immediate access to the actions all the time.
Thanks in advance for a more detailed feedback.
I would propose :
1 - Start from the nice proposition 2 - Work on the menu UX design, wich was the discussion point. (use "advanced" button ?) 3 - Develop it... 4 - relase Colibri skin
So unless I missed something and the colibri skin is not still in his
old
provisory state, it will be -1 for my part.
2009/9/1 Th omas Mortagne <[email protected]>
On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 14:29, Vincent Massol<[email protected]> wrote:
On Sep 1, 2009, at 2:28 PM, Guillaume Lerouge wrote:
> Hi devs, > I think we should make colibri the default skin in XE 2.0 RC1 if we > want it > to be tested and ready for the release. > > Here's my +1 +1 but only provided we agree on the default colors. Right now I'm -1 with the current colors. I've had several negative feedbacks about them (too light). +1
Thanks -Vincent
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Thomas Mortagne _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Sergiu Dumitriu http://purl.org/net/sergiu/ _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Guillaume Lerouge Product Manager - XWiki Skype: wikibc Twitter: glerouge http://guillaumelerouge.com/
Thanks Guillaume, I'm a bit rough myself so please excuse me. ;-) 2009/9/2 Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]>
Hi Thibaut, thanks for your feedback, we need more of it even if we sometimes welcome it a bit roughly :-)
On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 2:17 AM, Thibaut DEVERAUX < [email protected]
wrote:
To be more precise, personas :
Jo, Know what is a wiki.
"Where is the "edit button??? Ho, at the top ! "
Mike Don't know what is a wiki
"What can I do now?" Mike is looking arond the page, looking fo something logical. Mike may not notice the edit button since he is looking near the content. Now iimagine Mike sees the edit button. (Interesting : If he scroll he will se that the bar is scrolling to so it may help him to notice it) "So there is an edit link, I gess I will edit somehing, but what?" Mike click on the edit button. It open the editor with the content of the page. It take a few miliseconds to mike to understand. "Ho ok, this is editing the content of the page."
9 lines for mike...
If the edit button btton was near the content mike would have nticed it more easily. Also He would have linked it more easily with the fact it is editing the content.
This is what makes the difference between the two designs...
I happen to agree about the fact that the page action buttons should be located in the content area of the page. Additionally, power users can also get accustomed to keyboard shortcuts and they're even better than the non-moving top bar:
1. fingers don't need to leave the keyboard -> faster 2. always available wherever you are on the page
So this global discussion could go on for ages before we come to an ideal solution :-) We'll definitely keep working on improving XWiki's UI / UX in the coming releases (XE 2.1 is scheduled for the end of the year) and sharing the work with the community in order to assess all options and come to an optimal choice. Many corporate users are not familiar with wikis at all and we'll explore all the ways to make the UI / UX easier to understand and use for them. We'll be looking for your feedback during that time and the 2 mails you just wrote will definitely be useful.
Now when it comes to releasing XWiki Enterprise 2.0 with or without colibri, I'm definitely in favor of using Colibri. As Vincent stated it, the new skin:
- Doesn't have drawbacks toucan doesn't already have - the action bar is in the same location - all important items are in the same location -> no new UX issues (no regressions) - Brings a lot of improvements - scrolling issue fixed - ability to change colors and select a theme - panels no longer go up to the top of the page -> allows for more flexible layouts - new visual identity which is an important part of XWiki Enterprise 2.0 - the page title is displayed automatically (we get a lot of strong feedback from our corporate users on this and they will like it a lot - even though we need to fix the double title issue on a number of pages)
So I don't see a compelling reason not to use it. You're right about the fact that it means splitting XWiki's renovation in 2 (new look today, new ergonomics tomorrow) but this isn't an issue by itself as long as we keep working on improving it in the future.
Thanks for your feedback,
Guillaume
2009/9/2 Thibaut DEVERAUX <[email protected]>
Ho that's it. It is a design decision based about scrolling. I forgot this point.
So I understand now. Yet I still have some remarks about this because what you choose now is not neutral at all. I don't say it is good or bad. I say everybody have to understand the implications.
/***************************** Disclaimer : All of this is mainly theorical, UX is not an exact science when you can't make tests. Also I can be biaised by my own eperience (I'm definitivly not a newbee user, more probably a geek user). The only manner to really be sure about it is, like usual, to make
tests
on
a few real newbee users... *****************************/
Situation :
Just imagine you are in a supermarket and you search for butter.
First of all you assume butter is somewhere in the food aera.
Then you may think that butter is with all prooducts based on milk.
Also it should be in a freezer aera.
So you will find easily the butter.
Information architecture and ergonomy use a lot a methode called "card sorting" to create such logic aeras. They write the elements of the interface on paper. Then they ask people to group card they think to be linked. Then they make stats on groups to define an architecture of elements grouped in a logic way.
More information : French : http://www.ergolab.net/articles/tri-cartes-ergonomie-web.php English : http://www.boxesandarrows.com/view/card_sorting_a_definitive_guide
You understand, I think, what I mean. In a "logic aeras" way the edit button and all what is related specifically to the content on the page should be near the page. (I dont mind it is moving or not, since it is in the content aera)
Ok. Now, you will say me that anyone found a solution to get at the same time the content related links near the content and at the same time having the content related links always accessible. So : "the menu becomes inaccessible once you scroll down".
This is right. So they're is a deal...
Will I choose something :
* Efficient ? Quicly accessible user bar.
* Newbee friendly ? Put the information where they will search it.
It really depends on the targeted users :
* If users know the should be an edit button somewhere, choose something effcient. * If users will use the wiki all the days choose something efficient. / * If firms have a problematic of adoption and at the same time a lot of people not skilled in computers choose something newbee friendly. * If yo want anybody can contribute quicly, even if not at ease with computers choose something newbee friendly.
For my part, not knowing who are the personas, I would have choosen the version where the content related actions are in the content aera because : * Imo and according to what I read, scrolling back to someting he has already noticed is not the greatest problem for casual users. * A newbee oriented design avoid getting people lost since a regular users design only deserve regular users confort.
Yet I guess the main clients xwiki are people who have to use regulary the tool or people who know that they here to edit page and that it can be done cliking on an "edit" button somewhere on the page.
So... Imo this decision is not about a blind vote in a mailing list where evryone is biaised by the fact he know the tool. This decision is to :
* Have its implications evaluated. Best by tests, else by brainstorming like we are doing. * Being linked with political and marketing orientations. Project leader, marketing personas, community... I don't know who....
2009/9/1 Sergiu Dumitriu <[email protected]>
Thibaut DEVERAUX wrote:
The skin is still the provisory skin isn't it ?
I would prefer to wait for the nice version being programmed.
I think the provisory version has no real advantage on the old one. It is the same information architecture (worst indeed) with only the minimalist layout as a plus.
Imo the minimalist layout is made to work with the exellent ergonomics from first Caty versions. This is what makes it emotionaly coherent. So I would prefer to wait the skin being developed.
Actually, one of the main reasons why the menu had been moved (at the expense of loosing permanent access to it) was to eliminate the flickering effect when scrolling. Now that a community member provided a nice fix for this issue, it is possible that we will end up not changing the layout in that direction after all.
As Vincent said, this skin has the great advantage of being easy to change, and we need this in 2.0 . Please let us know what are the specific bad points from your perspective, what you think is worse than in the previous skin, and what makes the proposed layout (where the menu becomes inaccessible once you scroll down) have better ergonomics than the current one, where you have immediate access to the actions all the time.
Thanks in advance for a more detailed feedback.
I would propose :
1 - Start from the nice proposition 2 - Work on the menu UX design, wich was the discussion point. (use "advanced" button ?) 3 - Develop it... 4 - relase Colibri skin
So unless I missed something and the colibri skin is not still in
his old
provisory state, it will be -1 for my part.
2009/9/1 Th omas Mortagne <[email protected]>
On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 14:29, Vincent Massol<[email protected]> wrote: > On Sep 1, 2009, at 2:28 PM, Guillaume Lerouge wrote: > >> Hi devs, >> I think we should make colibri the default skin in XE 2.0 RC1 if we >> want it >> to be tested and ready for the release. >> >> Here's my +1 > +1 but only provided we agree on the default colors. Right now I'm -1 > with the current colors. I've had several negative feedbacks about > them (too light). +1
> Thanks > -Vincent > > _______________________________________________ > devs mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs >
-- Thomas Mortagne _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Sergiu Dumitriu http://purl.org/net/sergiu/ _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Guillaume Lerouge Product Manager - XWiki Skype: wikibc Twitter: glerouge http://guillaumelerouge.com/ _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
participants (2)
-
Guillaume Lerouge -
Thibaut DEVERAUX