On Mar 9, 2007, at 3:52 PM, jeremi joslin wrote:

Hi, I'm not for letting selenium by default on the wiki. I would prefer to setup a config parameter to add it. is it possible to activate selenium just by adding to the url ? selenium=1 ? like this it easy to activate fo the current page, and normal user don't have to load it.

I don't understand what you mean Jeremi. If Selenium XAR is not included in the default wiki then it cannot be activated as it won't be there. Of course any user can at any time include it in his wiki (this is already available). -Vincent

On 3/9/07, Vincent Massol <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi,

I committed in SVN the automatic inclusion of our Functional Test suite in the default wiki. Sergiu rightly pointed that we need to discuss this before including it as it's not completely end user focused.

Here are the reasons I thought it would be good to be included:

1) It's related to end users if we say that this is a feature to verify that XWiki is correctly installed. They can delete it after if they want. I strongly believe tests should extend to users in some manner, especially for an open source project.

2) This would allow users to help us discover problems in a more controlled manner. Indeed if users have this app installed, once they encounter a problem they could record a test suite proving the problem and give it to us. This would 1) increase our test suite and 2) allow us to reproduce the pb, fix it and verify the fix passes the test. In some way this is about transforming a portion of our users into contributors :)

Now Sergiu says that this is increasing the size of the default Wiki. Yes this is true. It goes from 320KB to 542KB. Is it worth it?

To be honest, I don't know if this will work or not but I was curious to try it out and see what we can come up with.

My idea here is really to try lowering the bar for writing functional tests for everyone and for us to get better at controlling if XWiki works or not.

We could have another wiki (say "wikidebug" or "wikitest") which is the default wiki + the Selenium app and let people interested use it. But it won't be as effective I think. I find it kind of cool to have our installation verification tool inside the delivered default wiki.

Another idea: we could have a button in Selenium.WebHome to completely remove the space if the user doesn't want it for example.

Anyway I'm curious to know what everyone thinks about this. I agree with Sergiu that it's not 100% required. At the same I'm curious with the experiment.

Thanks -Vincent

PS: If we decide we don't want it I'll remove it from the build so that it isn't included in the default wiki by default and I'll mark XWIKI-959 as won't fix.

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-- Jeremi Joslin (http://www.jeremi.info) skype: jeremi23 - jabber: [email protected] http://www.xwiki.com - http://www.pengyou-project.info

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On Mar 9, 2007, at 3:59 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:

On 3/9/07, Vincent Massol <[email protected]> wrote: Hi,

I committed in SVN the automatic inclusion of our Functional Test suite in the default wiki.

Which I like very much, as a developer.

Sergiu rightly pointed that we need to discuss this before including it as it's not completely end user focused.

Here are the reasons I thought it would be good to be included:

1) It's related to end users if we say that this is a feature to verify that XWiki is correctly installed. They can delete it after if they want. I strongly believe tests should extend to users in some manner, especially for an open source project.

I'd say not end users, but site admins, users deploying wikis, debuggers, people knowing at least a bit of web development. From my experience, most end users barely know HTML, or even the difference between a web application and a standard one.

Completely agree here. For me users = people who install XWiki. I guess we could make the Selenium app only visible to Admins but I don't think that's the core of the discussion here.

2) This would allow users to help us discover problems in a more controlled manner. Indeed if users have this app installed, once they encounter a problem they could record a test suite proving the problem and give it to us. This would 1) increase our test suite and 2) allow us to reproduce the pb, fix it and verify the fix passes the test. In some way this is about transforming a portion of our users into contributors :)

If they know how to use Selenium, they should know how to install it. Indeed, this is a good thing, and I hope we will see this kind of feedback.

I'd also add:

3) This can be used to test if a custom skin follows the Wiki skin principles (which are not defined). Meaning, we can provide a standard set of tests to check some functionalities, or requirements of the skin, like: is the edit button accessible from the skin? Can an anonymous user edit pages? Does the skin have a logo, pointing to the main page? Is the menu working? You get the point. These tests' results should not be fail/pass, but yes/no, something like a ./configure in the Linux world.

4) It's transparent, if you need it you can find it there, but it's not popping up in the interface.

Now Sergiu says that this is increasing the size of the default Wiki. Yes this is true. It goes from 320KB to 542KB. Is it worth it?

To be honest, I don't know if this will work or not but I was curious to try it out and see what we can come up with.

My idea here is really to try lowering the bar for writing functional tests for everyone and for us to get better at controlling if XWiki works or not.

We could have another wiki (say "wikidebug" or "wikitest") which is the default wiki + the Selenium app and let people interested use it. But it won't be as effective I think. I find it kind of cool to have our installation verification tool inside the delivered default wiki.

The problem is that people trying to make use of XWiki will work on the database, so switching to the normal database will not be OK, since all the changes will be lost. Once they chose a database, they will stick to it.

Another idea: we could have a button in Selenium.WebHome to completely remove the space if the user doesn't want it for example.

This, or if the component management will work fine, an uninstall button in the extension management area.

Anyway I'm curious to know what everyone thinks about this. I agree with Sergiu that it's not 100% required. At the same I'm curious with the experiment.

Thanks -Vincent

PS: If we decide we don't want it I'll remove it from the build so that it isn't included in the default wiki by default and I'll mark XWIKI-959 as won't fix.

So, my vote is not -1, but 0. There are advantages, and very few disadvantages. What we would need more is the user opinion, and not the developer one. Should we forward on xwiki-users?

I now think we should not include it for now as in any case: 1) We don't have enough tests yet. We need a bare minimum. So we need to work on the Selenium app to include more tests for now. We do need an easy way for developers and for contributors to add tests. I think we should install an instance somewhere, maybe on test.xwiki.org? 2) We need to work on it so that becomes extremely easy to use and we should probably provide some user guide once we learn more how to use it. Right now I have only done 1 test (test registration of a user) which was real easy to do but I've quickly tried using it on the WYSIWYG editor and it wasn't as easy (for example we're missing some names, class id, etc to make it easy for Selenium to find HTML elements). Thus if you're ok I'll remove it from the default wiki but I'll create another wiki (wikis/test for example) which will be the wiki we could upload on test.xwiki.org for example and where we can ask the community to help in writing tests. WDYT? Thanks -Vincent

I am for not including the Selenium app in the default wiki, unless it's a special debuggers build, because I am skeptical that this will have any benefit for most end users. My vote is 0. Catalin On 3/9/07, Sergiu Dumitriu <[email protected]> wrote:

...

I now think we should not include it for now as in any case:

1) We don't have enough tests yet. We need a bare minimum. So we need to

work on the Selenium app to include more tests for now. We do need an easy way for developers and for contributors to add tests. I think we should install an instance somewhere, maybe on test.xwiki.org?

...

2) We need to work on it so that becomes extremely easy to use and we

should probably provide some user guide once we learn more how to use it. Right now I have only done 1 test (test registration of a user) which was real easy to do but I've quickly tried using it on the WYSIWYG editor and it wasn't as easy (for example we're missing some names, class id, etc to make it easy for Selenium to find HTML elements).

...

Thus if you're ok I'll remove it from the default wiki but I'll create

another wiki (wikis/test for example) which will be the wiki we could upload on test.xwiki.org for example and where we can ask the community to help in writing tests.

...

WDYT?

Thanks -Vincent

You're right. It's better for the moment not to include it. We need to make people visit test.xwiki.org 'cause none of the xpn members can spare time for it.

Sergiu -- http://purl.org/net/sergiu

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