[xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Hidden wikis & template wikis
Hi devs. In the coming 5.3 milestone 2, all wikis are displayed in the Wiki Index, including the templates, which was not the case before.
From the user point of view, maybe these templates should not be listed in the Wiki Index. But on the other hand, if you want to see a template, you will not be able to access through the wiki index.
We also have introduced the "hidden" flag for wikis (in the WikiDescriptor, not in the UI yet). If we consider template wikis are "technical" wikis, we may use this flag to hide them. Then, in the Wiki Index, we don't care if a wiki is a template or not, we only care about the "hidden" flag. If the user does not want to see the templates in the list, she can mark them as hidden, exactly as we do for documents. But what about the template list in the wiki creation wizard? Should we list all templates, or only the visible ones? My proposition: - all wikis are visible though the wiki index (template or not). - if we want to hide templates to the users, we use the hidden flag in the wiki descriptor. - in the wiki creation wizard, we display all the templates, even these which are tagged as hidden. WDYT? Thanks, Louis-Marie
On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau < [email protected]> wrote:
Hi devs.
In the coming 5.3 milestone 2, all wikis are displayed in the Wiki Index, including the templates, which was not the case before.
From the user point of view, maybe these templates should not be listed in the Wiki Index. But on the other hand, if you want to see a template, you will not be able to access through the wiki index.
We also have introduced the "hidden" flag for wikis (in the WikiDescriptor, not in the UI yet). If we consider template wikis are "technical" wikis, we may use this flag to hide them. Then, in the Wiki Index, we don't care if a wiki is a template or not, we only care about the "hidden" flag. If the user does not want to see the templates in the list, she can mark them as hidden, exactly as we do for documents.
But what about the template list in the wiki creation wizard? Should we list all templates, or only the visible ones?
My proposition: - all wikis are visible though the wiki index (template or not). - if we want to hide templates to the users, we use the hidden flag in the wiki descriptor. - in the wiki creation wizard, we display all the templates, even these which are tagged as hidden.
WDYT?
This is a complex question... First shot from my side: * For me the admin pages should only contain configuration data and data displaying should be outside of it (yes we need to move some stuff out at apps in their spaces). So listing wiki templates should not be in the admin UI and it should be in the wiki index. * The Wiki index should list template wikis and there should be a way to visually see that a wiki is a template wiki (either a livetable column, some more subtle sign/information or 2 livetables, one for standard wikis and one for templates). Having 2 livetables is interesting since the main use case for wiki index is to navigate to a subwiki and very seldom to a template wiki and thus displaying the templates separately will allow viewing all standard wikis first in the UI. * In the wiki index, users should only see wikis that they have the right to access in view mode and hidden wikis should be by default not visible (whether to view hidden wikis or not could be a user profile config option same as "show hidden docs" and it could be on by default for the Admin user for example). * Template wikis should probably be created with special rights by default so that only admins or its creator can edit them by default. BTW as we discussed, we lost the ability to see the wiki rights when creating it that we had with the wiki manager and I think we need that back asap. * Wiki creation wizard should list all template wikis for which the current user has the right to view Thanks -Vincent
Thanks, Louis-Marie
+1 On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi devs.
In the coming 5.3 milestone 2, all wikis are displayed in the Wiki Index, including the templates, which was not the case before.
From the user point of view, maybe these templates should not be listed in the Wiki Index. But on the other hand, if you want to see a template, you will not be able to access through the wiki index.
We also have introduced the "hidden" flag for wikis (in the WikiDescriptor, not in the UI yet). If we consider template wikis are "technical" wikis, we may use this flag to hide them. Then, in the Wiki Index, we don't care if a wiki is a template or not, we only care about the "hidden" flag. If the user does not want to see the templates in the list, she can mark them as hidden, exactly as we do for documents.
But what about the template list in the wiki creation wizard? Should we list all templates, or only the visible ones?
My proposition: - all wikis are visible though the wiki index (template or not). - if we want to hide templates to the users, we use the hidden flag in the wiki descriptor. - in the wiki creation wizard, we display all the templates, even these which are tagged as hidden.
WDYT?
Thanks, Louis-Marie _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Thomas Mortagne
Hi, IMO: - Templates should be created by Administrators, this means the ability to set a new wiki as template or mark/edit an existing wiki as template should be visible just to Administrators. http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/WikiTemplates/edit-c... - If creating a template is allowed just to Administrators, for me is normal that the management is available in the Administration area: http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/WikiTemplates/manage... - Since templates are used for creation purposes and act as blueprints, a normal user should not see them or want to interact with them (as an Admin I wouldn't want that normal users create new page content on my template wikis or that they join it, etc). This mean that Wiki templates should not be visible in 'Wiki Index'. 'Wiki Index' purpose is to act like a place where the user can navigate toward wikis or manage his joining policy. So having what I say in mind means: - 'Wiki Index': -- don't display hidden wikis, except if set otherwise in the Profile; -- don't display template wikis, since they are not indented for normal users and you can manage them from Administration; - 'Creation Step': -- don't display normal/hidden wikis (logical); -- don't display 'hidden' templates, except otherwise specified in the Profile; -- display templates (in future flavors) (old mockups, but still partial relevant) http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/CreateWikiImprovemen... The above ideas are gathered here http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/WikiTemplates Thanks, Caty On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Thomas Mortagne <[email protected]>wrote:
+1
On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi devs.
In the coming 5.3 milestone 2, all wikis are displayed in the Wiki Index, including the templates, which was not the case before.
From the user point of view, maybe these templates should not be listed in the Wiki Index. But on the other hand, if you want to see a template, you will not be able to access through the wiki index.
We also have introduced the "hidden" flag for wikis (in the WikiDescriptor, not in the UI yet). If we consider template wikis are "technical" wikis, we may use this flag to hide them. Then, in the Wiki Index, we don't care if a wiki is a template or not, we only care about the "hidden" flag. If the user does not want to see the templates in the list, she can mark them as hidden, exactly as we do for documents.
But what about the template list in the wiki creation wizard? Should we list all templates, or only the visible ones?
My proposition: - all wikis are visible though the wiki index (template or not). - if we want to hide templates to the users, we use the hidden flag in the wiki descriptor. - in the wiki creation wizard, we display all the templates, even these which are tagged as hidden.
WDYT?
Thanks, Louis-Marie _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Thomas Mortagne _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:
Hi,
IMO: - Templates should be created by Administrators, this means the ability to set a new wiki as template or mark/edit an existing wiki as template should be visible just to Administrators.
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/WikiTemplates/edit-c...
Sometime yes, sometimes no. This the same rule as for creating wikis. Sometimes you want to only allow admins to do that and sometime you want to open it to your users.
- If creating a template is allowed just to Administrators, for me is normal that the management is available in the Administration area:
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/WikiTemplates/manage...
Administration area should be just there for configuration of features and apps should be located in their spaces and navigation should be done as for other apps. A page should list what the user is allowed to do, whether he's a simple user or an admin. I don't think it's a good idea to have 2 UIs and prevent admins from doing admin operations when they're on some app pages. In addition this prevents allowing non admins to do those actions too should we want that. Again my example of the stats app. In some cases I want only admins to be allowed to view it and in some other cases I may want stats to be visible by everyone in my wiki. If you force users to go through administration you loose this ability. This is the same for everything, including templates... This is really important to agree on since it's something generic. - Since templates are used for creation purposes and act as blueprints, a
normal user should not see them or want to interact with them
Why should the onus of creating a template wiki be only on admins? As an admin I may want to ask other users to participate in creating a template wiki (for example).
(as an Admin I wouldn't want that normal users create new page content on my template wikis or that they join it, etc).
That's controlled by **permissions**, not by visibility.
This mean that Wiki templates should not be visible in 'Wiki Index'.
I don't agree, see above and below ;)
'Wiki Index' purpose is to act like a place where the user can navigate toward wikis or manage his joining policy.
Since template wikis are wikis it also makes sense to have them there for whoever is allowed to view them.
So having what I say in mind means: - 'Wiki Index': -- don't display hidden wikis, except if set otherwise in the Profile;
-- don't display template wikis, since they are not indented for normal
users and you can manage them from Administration;
- 'Creation Step': -- don't display normal/hidden wikis (logical);
Why would you display hidden wikis in the create step? Thanks -Vincent
-- don't display 'hidden' templates, except otherwise specified in the Profile; -- display templates (in future flavors) (old mockups, but still partial relevant)
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/CreateWikiImprovemen...
The above ideas are gathered here http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/WikiTemplates
Thanks, Caty
On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Thomas Mortagne <[email protected]>wrote:
+1
On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi devs.
In the coming 5.3 milestone 2, all wikis are displayed in the Wiki Index, including the templates, which was not the case before.
From the user point of view, maybe these templates should not be listed in the Wiki Index. But on the other hand, if you want to see a template, you will not be able to access through the wiki index.
We also have introduced the "hidden" flag for wikis (in the WikiDescriptor, not in the UI yet). If we consider template wikis are "technical" wikis, we may use this flag to hide them. Then, in the Wiki Index, we don't care if a wiki is a template or not, we only care about the "hidden" flag. If the user does not want to see the templates in the list, she can mark them as hidden, exactly as we do for documents.
But what about the template list in the wiki creation wizard? Should we list all templates, or only the visible ones?
My proposition: - all wikis are visible though the wiki index (template or not). - if we want to hide templates to the users, we use the hidden flag in the wiki descriptor. - in the wiki creation wizard, we display all the templates, even these which are tagged as hidden.
WDYT?
Thanks, Louis-Marie _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Thomas Mortagne _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Status: In the Wiki Index, we display every wikis where the user has view rights. Which means, by default, every wikis [1]. We do not do anything special for wiki templates, since we do not have found an agreement. We still have an open issue for this [2] and we need to decide if we close it or not. Maybe an option could be to implement the notion of hidden wiki, which is already implemented in the API but not in the UI. It was my first proposition, and there is already a +1 from Thomas. It has the benefits that hidden wikis could cover other use-cases, and can be a temporary solution for this one. Thanks, Louis-Marie [1] http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9726?focusedCommentId=80370&page=com.atla... [2] http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9690 2013-11-20 16:04 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol <[email protected]>:
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:
Hi,
IMO: - Templates should be created by Administrators, this means the ability to set a new wiki as template or mark/edit an existing wiki as template should be visible just to Administrators.
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/WikiTemplates/edit-c...
Sometime yes, sometimes no. This the same rule as for creating wikis. Sometimes you want to only allow admins to do that and sometime you want to open it to your users.
- If creating a template is allowed just to Administrators, for me is normal that the management is available in the Administration area:
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/WikiTemplates/manage...
Administration area should be just there for configuration of features and apps should be located in their spaces and navigation should be done as for other apps.
A page should list what the user is allowed to do, whether he's a simple user or an admin.
I don't think it's a good idea to have 2 UIs and prevent admins from doing admin operations when they're on some app pages.
In addition this prevents allowing non admins to do those actions too should we want that. Again my example of the stats app. In some cases I want only admins to be allowed to view it and in some other cases I may want stats to be visible by everyone in my wiki. If you force users to go through administration you loose this ability. This is the same for everything, including templates...
This is really important to agree on since it's something generic.
- Since templates are used for creation purposes and act as blueprints, a
normal user should not see them or want to interact with them
Why should the onus of creating a template wiki be only on admins? As an admin I may want to ask other users to participate in creating a template wiki (for example).
(as an Admin I wouldn't want that normal users create new page content on my template wikis or that they join it, etc).
That's controlled by **permissions**, not by visibility.
This mean that Wiki templates should not be visible in 'Wiki Index'.
I don't agree, see above and below ;)
'Wiki Index' purpose is to act like a place where the user can navigate toward wikis or manage his joining policy.
Since template wikis are wikis it also makes sense to have them there for whoever is allowed to view them.
So having what I say in mind means: - 'Wiki Index': -- don't display hidden wikis, except if set otherwise in the Profile;
-- don't display template wikis, since they are not indented for normal
users and you can manage them from Administration;
- 'Creation Step': -- don't display normal/hidden wikis (logical);
Why would you display hidden wikis in the create step?
Thanks -Vincent
-- don't display 'hidden' templates, except otherwise specified in the Profile; -- display templates (in future flavors) (old mockups, but still partial relevant)
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/CreateWikiImprovemen...
The above ideas are gathered here http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/WikiTemplates
Thanks, Caty
On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Thomas Mortagne <[email protected]>wrote:
+1
On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi devs.
In the coming 5.3 milestone 2, all wikis are displayed in the Wiki Index, including the templates, which was not the case before.
From the user point of view, maybe these templates should not be
listed
in
the Wiki Index. But on the other hand, if you want to see a template, you will not be able to access through the wiki index.
We also have introduced the "hidden" flag for wikis (in the WikiDescriptor, not in the UI yet). If we consider template wikis are "technical" wikis, we may use this flag to hide them. Then, in the Wiki Index, we don't care if a wiki is a template or not, we only care about the "hidden" flag. If the user does not want to see the templates in the list, she can mark them as hidden, exactly as we do for documents.
But what about the template list in the wiki creation wizard? Should we list all templates, or only the visible ones?
My proposition: - all wikis are visible though the wiki index (template or not). - if we want to hide templates to the users, we use the hidden flag in the wiki descriptor. - in the wiki creation wizard, we display all the templates, even these which are tagged as hidden.
WDYT?
Thanks, Louis-Marie _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Thomas Mortagne _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Initially my proposal (which is now implemented) was: * List only wikis that you have the rights to view in the wiki index livetable I also proposed: * Have 2 sections in the wiki index page: one section for wikis and one section for templates below (not done), i.e. 2 livetables. The rationale for the 2 livetables is to cleanly separate the 2 concepts. Now there’s still one small issue with this: it works only if you properly set rights on your template wiki. For example if users should not see it, you need to not allow anyone to view your template wiki. Now while this seems pretty logical to me (and enough), I’m also fine to add the concept of hidden wikis, similar to hidden pages and don’t display hidden wikis for non-advanced users. <slightly ot> Also note that on a related topic, I think we need to reinstate a feature that was lost I think when the new Create Wiki wizard was introduced: the ability to set permissions when you create a new wiki. Thomas has introduced this in the Wiki Manager specifically because we usually set permissions on template wiki to prevent anyone from editing them but when we create a new wiki the creator may want to set how he wants his wiki to behave a this point. Ofc he can always do that after the fact but it could be interesting to have a specific step in the wiki creation wizard with easy to choose proposals (see also http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/AdminGuide/Access+Rights#HWikiAcces...): — open wiki - public wiki — private wiki — custom permissions </slightly ot> To conclude I’m +0 for implementing the hidden wiki concept. Thanks -Vincent On 10 Apr 2014 at 18:21:38, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
Status:
In the Wiki Index, we display every wikis where the user has view rights. Which means, by default, every wikis [1].
We do not do anything special for wiki templates, since we do not have found an agreement.
We still have an open issue for this [2] and we need to decide if we close it or not.
Maybe an option could be to implement the notion of hidden wiki, which is already implemented in the API but not in the UI. It was my first proposition, and there is already a +1 from Thomas. It has the benefits that hidden wikis could cover other use-cases, and can be a temporary solution for this one.
Thanks, Louis-Marie
[1] http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9726?focusedCommentId=80370&page=com.atla...
[2] http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9690
2013-11-20 16:04 GMT+01:00 Vincent Massol :
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:
Hi,
IMO: - Templates should be created by Administrators, this means the ability to set a new wiki as template or mark/edit an existing wiki as template should be visible just to Administrators.
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/WikiTemplates/edit-c...
Sometime yes, sometimes no. This the same rule as for creating wikis. Sometimes you want to only allow admins to do that and sometime you want to open it to your users.
- If creating a template is allowed just to Administrators, for me is normal that the management is available in the Administration area:
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/WikiTemplates/manage...
Administration area should be just there for configuration of features and apps should be located in their spaces and navigation should be done as for other apps.
A page should list what the user is allowed to do, whether he's a simple user or an admin.
I don't think it's a good idea to have 2 UIs and prevent admins from doing admin operations when they're on some app pages.
In addition this prevents allowing non admins to do those actions too should we want that. Again my example of the stats app. In some cases I want only admins to be allowed to view it and in some other cases I may want stats to be visible by everyone in my wiki. If you force users to go through administration you loose this ability. This is the same for everything, including templates...
This is really important to agree on since it's something generic.
- Since templates are used for creation purposes and act as blueprints, a
normal user should not see them or want to interact with them
Why should the onus of creating a template wiki be only on admins? As an admin I may want to ask other users to participate in creating a template wiki (for example).
(as an Admin I wouldn't want that normal users create new page content on my template wikis or that they join it, etc).
That's controlled by **permissions**, not by visibility.
This mean that Wiki templates should not be visible in 'Wiki Index'.
I don't agree, see above and below ;)
'Wiki Index' purpose is to act like a place where the user can navigate toward wikis or manage his joining policy.
Since template wikis are wikis it also makes sense to have them there for whoever is allowed to view them.
So having what I say in mind means: - 'Wiki Index': -- don't display hidden wikis, except if set otherwise in the Profile;
-- don't display template wikis, since they are not indented for normal
users and you can manage them from Administration;
- 'Creation Step': -- don't display normal/hidden wikis (logical);
Why would you display hidden wikis in the create step?
Thanks -Vincent
-- don't display 'hidden' templates, except otherwise specified in the Profile; -- display templates (in future flavors) (old mockups, but still partial relevant)
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/CreateWikiImprovemen...
The above ideas are gathered here http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/WikiTemplates
Thanks, Caty
On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Thomas Mortagne wrote:
+1
On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau wrote:
Hi devs.
In the coming 5.3 milestone 2, all wikis are displayed in the Wiki Index, including the templates, which was not the case before.
From the user point of view, maybe these templates should not be
listed
in
the Wiki Index. But on the other hand, if you want to see a template, you will not be able to access through the wiki index.
We also have introduced the "hidden" flag for wikis (in the WikiDescriptor, not in the UI yet). If we consider template wikis are "technical" wikis, we may use this flag to hide them. Then, in the Wiki Index, we don't care if a wiki is a template or not, we only care about the "hidden" flag. If the user does not want to see the templates in the list, she can mark them as hidden, exactly as we do for documents.
But what about the template list in the wiki creation wizard? Should we list all templates, or only the visible ones?
My proposition: - all wikis are visible though the wiki index (template or not). - if we want to hide templates to the users, we use the hidden flag in the wiki descriptor. - in the wiki creation wizard, we display all the templates, even these which are tagged as hidden.
WDYT?
Thanks, Louis-Marie
participants (5)
-
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) -
Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau -
Thomas Mortagne -
Vincent Massol -
vincent＠massol.net