Hi, On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Eduard Moraru <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Guillaume,

I have started a new discussion [1] on the topic of the new location of the Add menu in Flamingo which is, IMO, the real problem here.

I'll answer on this thread. However, I stand by my point that creating a wiki or a space are different actions compared from adding a new page and as thus should be treated differently. Regarding your actual proposal, I`d be inclined to -1 it, as IMO it makes

basic CRUD operations on the wiki model harder to perform (i.e. harder to find), and what we`d like to do is help people create content and structure, not the other way around.

I agree with the logic but I'm not sure I'm 100% in line with the conclusion. As you said, the goal is to help users create and structure their content. Right now, when looking at existing installs, I often see cases where users created several spaces with similar names (which doesn't really help structure information). This is mainly because they didn't know that a space with a similar name already existed. Similarly, you wouldn't want someone to create a "Communication" wiki if the "MarketingCommunication" wiki already exists. This is why I'm proposing to place "Create" buttons in context. I see at least 3 places where this could be useful: - "Create wiki" button on http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ - "Create space" button on hypothetical http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/SpacesIndex (similar to what we already have on the Dashboard) - "Create user" button on http://<server> /xwiki/bin/view/Main/UserDirectory So from my point of view, by putting those buttons on those pages they would actually be easier to find and understand for end-users. Thanks, Guillaume Thanks,

Eduard

---------- [1] http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/jqbcj4p4ryc56sms

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi,

We improved the things a bit by implementing http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928 Now users can more rapidly create pages by using the implicit value of 'Add'.

Having all the option (Create Wiki, Create Space, Create Page) in the menu is important IMO since you can create spaces (and wikis) from anywhere in the wiki. You don't need to be in a certain location to do this action.

I agree about having a Space Index of some sort and have a consistent way of localizing/navigating Wikis/Spaces/Pages. Something similar to this idea was the Explorer proposal http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/ExplorerApp

Another related issue to this subject is http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9440, but again I think XWIKI-10928 <http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928> improved the problem.

Thanks, Caty

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]

wrote:

...

Hi Devs,

I'm currently testing XE 6.2, it's a great release, I love the new look a lot - well done guys!

I have a quick remark that is related to the new location of the "Create" button. I think we should move the "create wiki" and "create space" options from where they are located now.

The "Create wiki" button could be moved under the list of wikis on this page: http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/

We would probably need a similar "space index" page with the "Create space" button there, a bit like what we have on the dashboard now: http:// <server>/xwiki/bin/view/Dashboard/

The objective being that when doing those create actions, they would be done with the context of the wikis / spaces that already exist.

What is also a bit confusing for users is that since creating a new wiki is much much bigger and less frequent than creating a new page, the action should not be available from every single page.

This issue has become much more salient than before to me because of the new location of the "Create" button. What's your opinion about this?

Thanks,

Guillaume _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi,

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Eduard Moraru <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi Guillaume,

I have started a new discussion [1] on the topic of the new location of the Add menu in Flamingo which is, IMO, the real problem here.

I'll answer on this thread.

However, I stand by my point that creating a wiki or a space are different actions compared from adding a new page and as thus should be treated differently.

Regarding your actual proposal, I`d be inclined to -1 it, as IMO it makes

...

basic CRUD operations on the wiki model harder to perform (i.e. harder to find), and what we`d like to do is help people create content and structure, not the other way around.

I agree with the logic but I'm not sure I'm 100% in line with the conclusion. As you said, the goal is to help users create and structure their content.

Right now, when looking at existing installs, I often see cases where users created several spaces with similar names (which doesn't really help structure information). This is mainly because they didn't know that a space with a similar name already existed. Similarly, you wouldn't want someone to create a "Communication" wiki if the "MarketingCommunication" wiki already exists.

What I read from your example above is that we can improve the create page/space/wiki UIs to have a section that does a kind of suggest to the user based on the name of the new entry he wants to create. We could have something like "The pages/spaces/wikis/etc. above already exist. Are you sure you want to create a new <userEnteredEntityName> page/space/wiki/etc. instead of using one of the above?" We could go as far as to force the user to check a checkbox before the "Create" button becomes enabled/clickable. This could either be a configuration option, based on the desire/intent/wishes of the admin of that wiki/space. With a bit of effort, this could be done consistently for the entire "/create/" action and its plugged-in template providers.

This is why I'm proposing to place "Create" buttons in context. I see at least 3 places where this could be useful:

- "Create wiki" button on http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ - "Create space" button on hypothetical http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/SpacesIndex (similar to what we already have on the Dashboard) - "Create user" button on http://<server> /xwiki/bin/view/Main/UserDirectory

So from my point of view, by putting those buttons on those pages they would actually be easier to find and understand for end-users.

This will not solve anything if the user is already too lazy to search for existing entries before creating one. The one he wishes to create might be on the second page of the livetable and the lazy user will just go ahead and create the similar entry. For this to be relatively effective in reducing duplication, we would have to implement something on the lines of what I have described above with the "reuse sugestion". I`m not particularly against this approach (of adding create options in the list), since we were already doing this at some point and in some places, but I`m still -1 for scattering the create logic in various locations instead of using the centralized "Add" menu. If we don`t, we will have 99999 pages all inside the Main space and that's it. How`s that for a wiki gardening nightmare? :) Thanks, Eduard

Thanks,

Guillaume

Thanks,

...

Eduard

---------- [1] http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/jqbcj4p4ryc56sms

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi,

We improved the things a bit by implementing http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928 Now users can more rapidly create pages by using the implicit value of 'Add'.

Having all the option (Create Wiki, Create Space, Create Page) in the menu is important IMO since you can create spaces (and wikis) from anywhere in the wiki. You don't need to be in a certain location to do this action.

I agree about having a Space Index of some sort and have a consistent way of localizing/navigating Wikis/Spaces/Pages. Something similar to this idea was the Explorer proposal http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/ExplorerApp

Another related issue to this subject is http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9440, but again I think XWIKI-10928 <http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928> improved the problem.

Thanks, Caty

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < [email protected]

wrote:

...

Hi Devs,

I'm currently testing XE 6.2, it's a great release, I love the new look a lot - well done guys!

I have a quick remark that is related to the new location of the "Create" button. I think we should move the "create wiki" and "create space" options from where they are located now.

The "Create wiki" button could be moved under the list of wikis on this page: http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/

We would probably need a similar "space index" page with the "Create space" button there, a bit like what we have on the dashboard now: http:// <server>/xwiki/bin/view/Dashboard/

The objective being that when doing those create actions, they would be done with the context of the wikis / spaces that already exist.

What is also a bit confusing for users is that since creating a new wiki is much much bigger and less frequent than creating a new page, the action should not be available from every single page.

This issue has become much more salient than before to me because of the new location of the "Create" button. What's your opinion about this?

Thanks,

Guillaume _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

Hi Caty, On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:

Hi,

So I think is a good idea to provide the ability to create wikis/spaces/page on their Indexes pages. In the case of Wiki Manager this was removed in http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9490 but if we re-add it we could standardize the creation of entities in their context (just like we do it on ColorThemes WebHome or on on Blog.WebHome).

Exactly :-) I'm +1 for this.

But even if we make this improvement, I still would want to have the ability to create wikis/spaces/pages in the Add menu.

As I've said before, I don't agree with this. Though I might be ok to keep the "Add space" action in there, with the improvements suggested by Edy, I strongly believe that the "Create new wiki" feature shouldn't be there. It's an infrequent action with strong consequences. It should be available as a tool from the main wiki, but definitely not from every page. Again, how often does any user create a new wiki? Even for a large organization, it will be mostly admins, and it will happen maybe a couple times a week after XWiki is launched internally. So in the end we have an action that is performed by *very few people, a handful of times*, and we put it on *every single page in the main wiki and all sub-wikis*. I'm afraid that keeping all 3 actions in the same button is consistency for consistency's sake, but it just doesn't match XWiki users' behavior, nor their expectations. Besides consistency, what is the rationale for having all 3 actions in one place? How do you back up your reasoning with actual user behavior? In your personal experience, how often do you use the "create wiki" button in its current location? IMO is not one way or the other (and I don't agree with the duplication

argument). One way of creating entries (the Add menu way) is more generic, while the other way (contextual form placement on the Homepages/Indexes) is specific to the entity type.

I don't mind having more that one button for an action in specific cases. But I don't think the "Create wiki" action is one of those cases. Thanks, Guillaume

Thanks, Caty

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Eduard Moraru <[email protected]> wrote:

...

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi,

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Eduard Moraru <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi Guillaume,

I have started a new discussion [1] on the topic of the new location of the Add menu in Flamingo which is, IMO, the real problem here.

I'll answer on this thread.

However, I stand by my point that creating a wiki or a space are different actions compared from adding a new page and as thus should be treated differently.

Regarding your actual proposal, I`d be inclined to -1 it, as IMO it makes

...

basic CRUD operations on the wiki model harder to perform (i.e. harder to find), and what we`d like to do is help people create content and structure, not the other way around.

I agree with the logic but I'm not sure I'm 100% in line with the conclusion. As you said, the goal is to help users create and structure their content.

Right now, when looking at existing installs, I often see cases where users created several spaces with similar names (which doesn't really help structure information). This is mainly because they didn't know that a space with a similar name already existed. Similarly, you wouldn't want someone to create a "Communication" wiki if the "MarketingCommunication" wiki already exists.

What I read from your example above is that we can improve the create page/space/wiki UIs to have a section that does a kind of suggest to the user based on the name of the new entry he wants to create. We could have something like "The pages/spaces/wikis/etc. above already exist. Are you sure you want to create a new <userEnteredEntityName> page/space/wiki/etc. instead of using one of the above?"

We could go as far as to force the user to check a checkbox before the "Create" button becomes enabled/clickable. This could either be a configuration option, based on the desire/intent/wishes of the admin of that wiki/space.

With a bit of effort, this could be done consistently for the entire "/create/" action and its plugged-in template providers.

...

This is why I'm proposing to place "Create" buttons in context. I see

at

...

least 3 places where this could be useful:

- "Create wiki" button on http:// <server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ - "Create space" button on hypothetical http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/SpacesIndex (similar to what we already have on the Dashboard) - "Create user" button on http://<server> /xwiki/bin/view/Main/UserDirectory

So from my point of view, by putting those buttons on those pages they would actually be easier to find and understand for end-users.

This will not solve anything if the user is already too lazy to search for existing entries before creating one. The one he wishes to create might be on the second page of the livetable and the lazy user will just go ahead and create the similar entry.

For this to be relatively effective in reducing duplication, we would have to implement something on the lines of what I have described above with the "reuse sugestion".

I`m not particularly against this approach (of adding create options in the list), since we were already doing this at some point and in some places, but I`m still -1 for scattering the create logic in various locations instead of using the centralized "Add" menu. If we don`t, we will have 99999 pages all inside the Main space and that's it. How`s that for a wiki gardening nightmare? :)

Thanks, Eduard

...

Thanks,

Guillaume

Thanks,

...

Eduard

---------- [1] http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/jqbcj4p4ryc56sms

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi,

We improved the things a bit by implementing http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928 Now users can more rapidly create pages by using the implicit value

of

...

...

...

'Add'.

Having all the option (Create Wiki, Create Space, Create Page) in the menu is important IMO since you can create spaces (and wikis) from anywhere in the wiki. You don't need to be in a certain location to do this action.

I agree about having a Space Index of some sort and have a consistent way of localizing/navigating Wikis/Spaces/Pages. Something similar to this idea was the Explorer proposal http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/ExplorerApp

Another related issue to this subject is http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9440, but again I think XWIKI-10928 <http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928> improved the problem.

Thanks, Caty

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < [email protected]

wrote:

...

Hi Devs,

I'm currently testing XE 6.2, it's a great release, I love the new look a lot - well done guys!

I have a quick remark that is related to the new location of the "Create" button. I think we should move the "create wiki" and "create space" options from where they are located now.

The "Create wiki" button could be moved under the list of wikis on this page: http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/

We would probably need a similar "space index" page with the "Create space" button there, a bit like what we have on the dashboard now: http:// <server>/xwiki/bin/view/Dashboard/

The objective being that when doing those create actions, they would be done with the context of the wikis / spaces that already exist.

What is also a bit confusing for users is that since creating a new wiki is much much bigger and less frequent than creating a new page, the action should not be available from every single page.

This issue has become much more salient than before to me because of the new location of the "Create" button. What's your opinion about this?

Thanks,

Guillaume _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

Hi, Le 29 sept. 2014 15:12, "Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)" <[email protected]> a écrit :

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi Caty,

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi,

So I think is a good idea to provide the ability to create wikis/spaces/page on their Indexes pages. In the case of Wiki Manager this was removed in http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9490 but if we

re-add

...

it

...

we could standardize the creation of entities in their context (just like we do it on ColorThemes WebHome or on on Blog.WebHome).

Exactly :-) I'm +1 for this.

...

But even if we make this improvement, I still would want to have the ability to create wikis/spaces/pages in the Add menu.

As I've said before, I don't agree with this. Though I might be ok to keep the "Add space" action in there, with the improvements suggested by Edy, I strongly believe that the "Create new wiki" feature shouldn't be there. It's an infrequent action with strong consequences. It should be available as a tool from the main wiki, but definitely not from every page. Again, how often does any user create a new wiki? Even for a large organization, it will be mostly admins, and it will happen maybe a couple times a week after XWiki is launched internally.

This is already the case. The wiki button is displayed only if you have the appropiate rights: admin or you were gave explicitly the 'Create Wiki' right. If you log in with a normal user you don't see the button.

Maybe it could be displayed in bold-red-italic-emphasized and proper warnings displayed when clicked ? Would seem less "dangerous" that way (even for admins) ?

Thanks, Caty

...

So in the end we have an action that is performed by *very few people, a handful of times*, and we put it on *every single page in the main wiki

and

...

all sub-wikis*. I'm afraid that keeping all 3 actions in the same button is consistency for consistency's sake, but it just doesn't match XWiki users' behavior, nor their expectations.

Besides consistency, what is the rationale for having all 3 actions in one place? How do you back up your reasoning with actual user behavior? In your personal experience, how often do you use the "create wiki" button in its current location?

IMO is not one way or the other (and I don't agree with the duplication

...

argument). One way of creating entries (the Add menu way) is more generic, while the other way (contextual form placement on the Homepages/Indexes) is specific to the entity type.

I don't mind having more that one button for an action in specific cases. But I don't think the "Create wiki" action is one of those cases.

Thanks,

Guillaume

...

Thanks, Caty

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Eduard Moraru <[email protected]> wrote:

...

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi,

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Eduard Moraru < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi Guillaume,

I have started a new discussion [1] on the topic of the new location of the Add menu in Flamingo which is, IMO, the real problem here.

I'll answer on this thread.

However, I stand by my point that creating a wiki or a space are different actions compared from adding a new page and as thus should be treated differently.

Regarding your actual proposal, I`d be inclined to -1 it, as IMO it makes

...

basic CRUD operations on the wiki model harder to perform (i.e. harder to find), and what we`d like to do is help people create content and structure, not the other way around.

I agree with the logic but I'm not sure I'm 100% in line with the conclusion. As you said, the goal is to help users create and structure their content.

Right now, when looking at existing installs, I often see cases where users created several spaces with similar names (which doesn't really help structure information). This is mainly because they didn't know that a space with a similar name already existed. Similarly, you wouldn't want someone to create a "Communication" wiki if the "MarketingCommunication" wiki already exists.

What I read from your example above is that we can improve the create page/space/wiki UIs to have a section that does a kind of suggest to the user based on the name of the new entry he wants to create. We could have something like "The pages/spaces/wikis/etc. above already exist. Are you sure you want to create a new <userEnteredEntityName> page/space/wiki/etc. instead of using one of the above?"

We could go as far as to force the user to check a checkbox before the "Create" button becomes enabled/clickable. This could either be a configuration option, based on the desire/intent/wishes of the admin of that wiki/space.

With a bit of effort, this could be done consistently for the entire "/create/" action and its plugged-in template providers.

...

This is why I'm proposing to place "Create" buttons in context. I

see at

...

least 3 places where this could be useful:

- "Create wiki" button on http:// <server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ - "Create space" button on hypothetical http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/SpacesIndex (similar to what we already have on the Dashboard) - "Create user" button on http://<server> /xwiki/bin/view/Main/UserDirectory

So from my point of view, by putting those buttons on those pages they would actually be easier to find and understand for end-users.

This will not solve anything if the user is already too lazy to search for existing entries before creating one. The one he wishes to create might be on the second page of the livetable and the lazy user will just go ahead and create the similar entry.

For this to be relatively effective in reducing duplication, we would have to implement something on the lines of what I have described above with the "reuse sugestion".

I`m not particularly against this approach (of adding create options in the list), since we were already doing this at some point and in some places, but I`m still -1 for scattering the create logic in various locations instead of using the centralized "Add" menu. If we don`t, we will have 99999 pages all inside the Main space and that's it. How`s that for a wiki gardening nightmare? :)

Thanks, Eduard

...

Thanks,

Guillaume

Thanks,

...

Eduard

---------- [1] http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/jqbcj4p4ryc56sms

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:

> Hi, > > We improved the things a bit by implementing > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928 > Now users can more rapidly create pages by using the implicit

value of

...

...

> 'Add'. > > Having all the option (Create Wiki, Create Space, Create Page) in the menu > is important IMO since you can create spaces (and wikis) from anywhere in > the wiki. You don't need to be in a certain location to do this action. > > I agree about having a Space Index of some sort and have a consistent way > of localizing/navigating Wikis/Spaces/Pages. Something similar to this idea > was the Explorer proposal > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/ExplorerApp > > Another related issue to this subject is > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9440, but again I think XWIKI-10928 > <http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928> improved the problem. > > Thanks, > Caty > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < [email protected] > > wrote: > > > Hi Devs, > > > > I'm currently testing XE 6.2, it's a great release, I love the new look a > > lot - well done guys! > > > > I have a quick remark that is related to the new location of the "Create" > > button. I think we should move the "create wiki" and "create space" > options > > from where they are located now. > > > > The "Create wiki" button could be moved under the list of wikis on this > > page: http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ > > > > We would probably need a similar "space index" page with the "Create > space" > > button there, a bit like what we have on the dashboard now: http:// > > <server>/xwiki/bin/view/Dashboard/ > > > > The objective being that when doing those create actions, they would be > > done with the context of the wikis / spaces that already exist. > > > > What is also a bit confusing for users is that since creating a new wiki > is > > much much bigger and less frequent than creating a new page, the action > > should not be available from every single page. > > > > This issue has become much more salient than before to me because of the > > new location of the "Create" button. What's your opinion about this? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Guillaume > > _______________________________________________ > > devs mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > _______________________________________________ > devs mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

Le 29 sept. 2014 16:15, "Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)" <[email protected]> a écrit :

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Jeremie BOUSQUET < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi,

Le 29 sept. 2014 15:12, "Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)" <[email protected]>

a

...

écrit :

...

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <

[email protected]>

...

wrote:

...

Hi Caty,

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi,

So I think is a good idea to provide the ability to create wikis/spaces/page on their Indexes pages. In the case of Wiki Manager this was removed in http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9490 but if we re-add it we could standardize the creation of entities in their context (just like we do it on ColorThemes WebHome or on on Blog.WebHome).

Exactly :-) I'm +1 for this.

...

But even if we make this improvement, I still would want to have the ability to create wikis/spaces/pages in the Add menu.

As I've said before, I don't agree with this. Though I might be ok to keep the "Add space" action in there, with the improvements suggested by Edy, I strongly believe that the "Create new wiki" feature shouldn't be there. It's an infrequent action with strong consequences. It should be available as a tool from the main wiki, but definitely not from every page. Again, how often does any user create a new wiki? Even for a large organization, it will be mostly admins, and it will happen maybe a couple times a week after XWiki is launched internally.

This is already the case. The wiki button is displayed only if you have the appropiate rights: admin or you were gave explicitly the 'Create Wiki' right. If you log in with a normal user you don't see the button.

Maybe it could be displayed in bold-red-italic-emphasized and proper warnings displayed when clicked ? Would seem less "dangerous" that way (even for admins) ?

Creating Wikis is not dangerous. Wikis are a standard concept used for organization of content and applications. How often you create wikis is just a matter of use case.

You're right bad wording, creating wikis is not dangerous, but as roots of content organization, they have a strong impact on the latter. Also you could say there's some maintenance impact for the server admin (new db schemes to backup or any other db related activities).

Thanks, Caty

...

...

Thanks, Caty

...

So in the end we have an action that is performed by *very few

people,

...

a

...

...

handful of times*, and we put it on *every single page in the main wiki and all sub-wikis*. I'm afraid that keeping all 3 actions in the same button is consistency for consistency's sake, but it just doesn't match XWiki users' behavior, nor their expectations.

Besides consistency, what is the rationale for having all 3 actions in one place? How do you back up your reasoning with actual user behavior? In your personal experience, how often do you use the "create wiki" button in its current location?

IMO is not one way or the other (and I don't agree with the duplication

...

argument). One way of creating entries (the Add menu way) is more generic, while the other way (contextual form placement on the Homepages/Indexes) is specific to the entity type.

I don't mind having more that one button for an action in specific cases. But I don't think the "Create wiki" action is one of those cases.

Thanks,

Guillaume

...

Thanks, Caty

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Eduard Moraru < [email protected]

...

...

wrote:

...

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < [email protected]> wrote:

> Hi, > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Eduard Moraru < [email protected]> > wrote: > > > Hi Guillaume, > > > > I have started a new discussion [1] on the topic of the new location of > the > > Add menu in Flamingo which is, IMO, the real problem here. > > > > I'll answer on this thread. > > However, I stand by my point that creating a wiki or a space are different > actions compared from adding a new page and as thus should be treated > differently. > > Regarding your actual proposal, I`d be inclined to -1 it, as IMO it makes > > basic CRUD operations on the wiki model harder to perform (i.e. harder to > > find), and what we`d like to do is help people create content and > > structure, not the other way around. > > > > I agree with the logic but I'm not sure I'm 100% in line with the > conclusion. As you said, the goal is to help users create and structure > their content. > > Right now, when looking at existing installs, I often see cases where users > created several spaces with similar names (which doesn't really help > structure information). This is mainly because they didn't know that a > space with a similar name already existed. Similarly, you wouldn't want > someone to create a "Communication" wiki if the "MarketingCommunication" > wiki already exists. >

What I read from your example above is that we can improve the create page/space/wiki UIs to have a section that does a kind of suggest to the user based on the name of the new entry he wants to create. We could have something like "The pages/spaces/wikis/etc. above already exist. Are you sure you want to create a new <userEnteredEntityName> page/space/wiki/etc. instead of using one of the above?"

We could go as far as to force the user to check a checkbox before the "Create" button becomes enabled/clickable. This could either be a configuration option, based on the desire/intent/wishes of the admin of that wiki/space.

With a bit of effort, this could be done consistently for the entire "/create/" action and its plugged-in template providers.

> > This is why I'm proposing to place "Create" buttons in context. I see at > least 3 places where this could be useful: > > - "Create wiki" button on http:// <server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ > - "Create space" button on hypothetical > http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/SpacesIndex > (similar to what we already have on the Dashboard) > - "Create user" button on http://<server> > /xwiki/bin/view/Main/UserDirectory > > So from my point of view, by putting those buttons on those pages they > would actually be easier to find and understand for end-users. >

This will not solve anything if the user is already too lazy to search for existing entries before creating one. The one he wishes to create might be on the second page of the livetable and the lazy user will just go ahead and create the similar entry.

For this to be relatively effective in reducing duplication, we would have to implement something on the lines of what I have described above with the "reuse sugestion".

I`m not particularly against this approach (of adding create options in the list), since we were already doing this at some point and in some places, but I`m still -1 for scattering the create logic in various locations instead of using the centralized "Add" menu. If we don`t, we will have 99999 pages all inside the Main space and that's it. How`s that for a wiki gardening nightmare? :)

Thanks, Eduard

> > Thanks, > > Guillaume > > Thanks, > > Eduard > > > > ---------- > > [1] http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/jqbcj4p4ryc56sms > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > We improved the things a bit by implementing > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928 > > > Now users can more rapidly create pages by using the implicit value of > > > 'Add'. > > > > > > Having all the option (Create Wiki, Create Space, Create Page) in the > > menu > > > is important IMO since you can create spaces (and wikis) from anywhere > in > > > the wiki. You don't need to be in a certain location to do this action. > > > > > > I agree about having a Space Index of some sort and have a consistent > way > > > of localizing/navigating Wikis/Spaces/Pages. Something similar to this > > idea > > > was the Explorer proposal > > > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/ExplorerApp > > > > > > Another related issue to this subject is > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9440, but again I think XWIKI-10928 > > > <http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928> improved the problem. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Caty > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < > [email protected] > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Devs, > > > > > > > > I'm currently testing XE 6.2, it's a great release, I love the new > > look a > > > > lot - well done guys! > > > > > > > > I have a quick remark that is related to the new location of the > > "Create" > > > > button. I think we should move the "create wiki" and "create space" > > > options > > > > from where they are located now. > > > > > > > > The "Create wiki" button could be moved under the list of wikis on > this > > > > page: http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ > > > > > > > > We would probably need a similar "space index" page with the "Create > > > space" > > > > button there, a bit like what we have on the dashboard now: http:// > > > > <server>/xwiki/bin/view/Dashboard/ > > > > > > > > The objective being that when doing those create actions, they would > be > > > > done with the context of the wikis / spaces that already exist. > > > > > > > > What is also a bit confusing for users is that since creating a new > > wiki > > > is > > > > much much bigger and less frequent than creating a new page, the > action > > > > should not be available from every single page. > > > > > > > > This issue has become much more salient than before to me because of > > the > > > > new location of the "Create" button. What's your opinion about this? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Guillaume > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > devs mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > devs mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > devs mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > _______________________________________________ > devs mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

---

devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

Hi Caty, On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 3:14 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi Caty,

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi,

So I think is a good idea to provide the ability to create wikis/spaces/page on their Indexes pages. In the case of Wiki Manager this was removed in http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9490 but if we re-add it we could standardize the creation of entities in their context (just like we do it on ColorThemes WebHome or on on Blog.WebHome).

Exactly :-) I'm +1 for this.

...

But even if we make this improvement, I still would want to have the ability to create wikis/spaces/pages in the Add menu.

As I've said before, I don't agree with this. Though I might be ok to keep the "Add space" action in there, with the improvements suggested by Edy, I strongly believe that the "Create new wiki" feature shouldn't be there. It's an infrequent action with strong consequences. It should be available as a tool from the main wiki, but definitely not from every page. Again, how often does any user create a new wiki? Even for a large organization, it will be mostly admins, and it will happen maybe a couple times a week after XWiki is launched internally.

So in the end we have an action that is performed by *very few people, a handful of times*, and we put it on *every single page in the main wiki and all sub-wikis*. I'm afraid that keeping all 3 actions in the same button is consistency for consistency's sake, but it just doesn't match XWiki users' behavior, nor their expectations.

Besides consistency, what is the rationale for having all 3 actions in one place? How do you back up your reasoning with actual user behavior? In your personal experience, how often do you use the "create wiki" button in its current location?

With this logic, why do we have the 'Edit Class' in the same 'Edit' menu? We should be able to edit the Class just from the page that lists the existing classes.

I'm not sure how you're coming to this conclusion. I never suggested moving an action that is related to a given page away from that page. If class "a" is stored in page "A", I don't see why the "Edit class a" button should be anywhere but on page "A". Theoretically, if XClasses were not a specific concept in XWiki we wouldn't need the multi-select "Edit" button (a single "Edit" button would automatically trigger class edition on a XWiki page holding a XClass definition), but that's another debate entirely. However, I don't see how creating the wiki "SomeWiki" would be related to page "A", which is why I'm suggesting moving the button some place else.

The logic is that I want to be able to perform RAPIDLY an action, without needing to go on a particular page. Wikis/Space/Pages are BASIC entities in XWiki, is not something optional or rarely used.

How often do you need to RAPIDLY create a new wiki, an action which takes routinely takes several minutes to complete? Thanks, Guillaume

Thanks, Caty

...

IMO is not one way or the other (and I don't agree with the duplication

...

argument). One way of creating entries (the Add menu way) is more generic, while the other way (contextual form placement on the Homepages/Indexes) is specific to the entity type.

I don't mind having more that one button for an action in specific cases. But I don't think the "Create wiki" action is one of those cases.

Thanks,

Guillaume

...

Thanks, Caty

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Eduard Moraru <[email protected]> wrote:

...

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi,

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Eduard Moraru < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi Guillaume,

I have started a new discussion [1] on the topic of the new location of the Add menu in Flamingo which is, IMO, the real problem here.

I'll answer on this thread.

However, I stand by my point that creating a wiki or a space are different actions compared from adding a new page and as thus should be treated differently.

Regarding your actual proposal, I`d be inclined to -1 it, as IMO it makes

...

basic CRUD operations on the wiki model harder to perform (i.e. harder to find), and what we`d like to do is help people create content and structure, not the other way around.

I agree with the logic but I'm not sure I'm 100% in line with the conclusion. As you said, the goal is to help users create and structure their content.

Right now, when looking at existing installs, I often see cases where users created several spaces with similar names (which doesn't really help structure information). This is mainly because they didn't know that a space with a similar name already existed. Similarly, you wouldn't want someone to create a "Communication" wiki if the "MarketingCommunication" wiki already exists.

What I read from your example above is that we can improve the create page/space/wiki UIs to have a section that does a kind of suggest to the user based on the name of the new entry he wants to create. We could have something like "The pages/spaces/wikis/etc. above already exist. Are you sure you want to create a new <userEnteredEntityName> page/space/wiki/etc. instead of using one of the above?"

We could go as far as to force the user to check a checkbox before the "Create" button becomes enabled/clickable. This could either be a configuration option, based on the desire/intent/wishes of the admin of that wiki/space.

With a bit of effort, this could be done consistently for the entire "/create/" action and its plugged-in template providers.

...

This is why I'm proposing to place "Create" buttons in context. I

see at

...

least 3 places where this could be useful:

- "Create wiki" button on http:// <server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ - "Create space" button on hypothetical http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/SpacesIndex (similar to what we already have on the Dashboard) - "Create user" button on http://<server> /xwiki/bin/view/Main/UserDirectory

So from my point of view, by putting those buttons on those pages they would actually be easier to find and understand for end-users.

This will not solve anything if the user is already too lazy to search for existing entries before creating one. The one he wishes to create might be on the second page of the livetable and the lazy user will just go ahead and create the similar entry.

For this to be relatively effective in reducing duplication, we would have to implement something on the lines of what I have described above with the "reuse sugestion".

I`m not particularly against this approach (of adding create options in the list), since we were already doing this at some point and in some places, but I`m still -1 for scattering the create logic in various locations instead of using the centralized "Add" menu. If we don`t, we will have 99999 pages all inside the Main space and that's it. How`s that for a wiki gardening nightmare? :)

Thanks, Eduard

...

Thanks,

Guillaume

Thanks,

...

Eduard

---------- [1] http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/jqbcj4p4ryc56sms

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:

> Hi, > > We improved the things a bit by implementing > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928 > Now users can more rapidly create pages by using the implicit

value of

...

...

> 'Add'. > > Having all the option (Create Wiki, Create Space, Create Page) in the menu > is important IMO since you can create spaces (and wikis) from anywhere in > the wiki. You don't need to be in a certain location to do this action. > > I agree about having a Space Index of some sort and have a consistent way > of localizing/navigating Wikis/Spaces/Pages. Something similar to this idea > was the Explorer proposal > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/ExplorerApp > > Another related issue to this subject is > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9440, but again I think XWIKI-10928 > <http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928> improved the problem. > > Thanks, > Caty > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < [email protected] > > wrote: > > > Hi Devs, > > > > I'm currently testing XE 6.2, it's a great release, I love the new look a > > lot - well done guys! > > > > I have a quick remark that is related to the new location of the "Create" > > button. I think we should move the "create wiki" and "create space" > options > > from where they are located now. > > > > The "Create wiki" button could be moved under the list of wikis on this > > page: http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ > > > > We would probably need a similar "space index" page with the "Create > space" > > button there, a bit like what we have on the dashboard now: http:// > > <server>/xwiki/bin/view/Dashboard/ > > > > The objective being that when doing those create actions, they would be > > done with the context of the wikis / spaces that already exist. > > > > What is also a bit confusing for users is that since creating a new wiki > is > > much much bigger and less frequent than creating a new page, the action > > should not be available from every single page. > > > > This issue has become much more salient than before to me because of the > > new location of the "Create" button. What's your opinion about this? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Guillaume

Hi Edy, On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:07 AM, Eduard Moraru <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi,

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi Caty,

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi,

So I think is a good idea to provide the ability to create wikis/spaces/page on their Indexes pages. In the case of Wiki Manager this was removed in http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9490 but if we re-add it we could standardize the creation of entities in their context (just like we do it on ColorThemes WebHome or on on Blog.WebHome).

Exactly :-) I'm +1 for this.

...

But even if we make this improvement, I still would want to have the ability to create wikis/spaces/pages in the Add menu.

As I've said before, I don't agree with this. Though I might be ok to keep the "Add space" action in there, with the improvements suggested by Edy, I strongly believe that the "Create new wiki" feature shouldn't be there. It's an infrequent action with strong consequences. It should be available as a tool from the main wiki, but definitely not from every page. Again, how often does any user create a new wiki? Even for a large organization, it will be mostly admins, and it will happen maybe a couple times a week after XWiki is launched internally.

So in the end we have an action that is performed by *very few people, a handful of times*, and we put it on *every single page in the main wiki and all sub-wikis*. I'm afraid that keeping all 3 actions in the same button is consistency for consistency's sake, but it just doesn't match XWiki users' behavior, nor their expectations.

Besides consistency, what is the rationale for having all 3 actions in one place? How do you back up your reasoning with actual user behavior? In your personal experience, how often do you use the "create wiki" button in its current location?

Big -1 for this!

It`s the *whole point why we`ve introduced Workspaces* (or wikis, or call it whatever you like). The whole idea is to empower the user to create his workspace where he can freely collaborate with his peers and install whatever applications they want. You do have to consider the fact that you may have been exposed to tight organizational usages of XWiki where its users are the slaves of the admin and don`t/can`t really do anything without his approval. However, I personally (and hope am not alone here), want to make XWiki more than this and to allow it to be used by more open-minded organizations that empower their users and their collaboration.

I fully agree with this. However, I see organizations using XWiki every day that Again, it's not about preventing users from creating new wikis. My proposal is about moving an infrequent action (at least compared to the "create page" action) to a better-suited location. I don't see how that's not empowering users. Also, XWiki is a tool that is supposed to improve collaboration, not

diminish it into "misticism" by calling the simple task of creating a wiki (which is part of XWiki's data model and, with a new model implementation could be even more seamlessly integrated without using primitive/rigid storage solutions such as databases) "an infrequent action with strong consequences".

I'm calling it an infrequent action because it IS an infrequent action. Look at how we use it ourselves on the XWiki.org family of sites for instance: how often do you create a new sub-wiki, as opposed to adding new pages? There's nothing mystic about looking at basic data points. Oh, and don`t forget flavors, that are supposed to build even more on the

above mentioned, so yes, you do need to create wikis easily and yes, you do need to promote that in the UI so that user's discover it and not bury it in some livetable in a space/page that users are intimidated by.

Not bury it, put it in a logical place: the create button next to the list of items of the same type that already exist. According to the "promote it in the UI" logic, why not give every single option in XWiki a button on all pages? It would be amazing. <http://colemancountyinstitute.wikispaces.com/file/view/microsoft.jpg/146633399/microsoft.jpg> Thanks, Guillaume Perhaps it's just a problem of perception at this point.

Thanks, Eduard

...

IMO is not one way or the other (and I don't agree with the duplication

...

argument). One way of creating entries (the Add menu way) is more generic, while the other way (contextual form placement on the

Homepages/Indexes)

...

is

...

specific to the entity type.

I don't mind having more that one button for an action in specific cases. But I don't think the "Create wiki" action is one of those cases.

Thanks,

Guillaume

...

Thanks, Caty

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Eduard Moraru <[email protected]> wrote:

...

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi,

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Eduard Moraru < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi Guillaume,

I have started a new discussion [1] on the topic of the new location of the Add menu in Flamingo which is, IMO, the real problem here.

I'll answer on this thread.

However, I stand by my point that creating a wiki or a space are different actions compared from adding a new page and as thus should be treated differently.

Regarding your actual proposal, I`d be inclined to -1 it, as IMO it makes

...

basic CRUD operations on the wiki model harder to perform (i.e. harder to find), and what we`d like to do is help people create content and structure, not the other way around.

I agree with the logic but I'm not sure I'm 100% in line with the conclusion. As you said, the goal is to help users create and structure their content.

Right now, when looking at existing installs, I often see cases where users created several spaces with similar names (which doesn't really help structure information). This is mainly because they didn't know that a space with a similar name already existed. Similarly, you wouldn't want someone to create a "Communication" wiki if the "MarketingCommunication" wiki already exists.

What I read from your example above is that we can improve the create page/space/wiki UIs to have a section that does a kind of suggest to the user based on the name of the new entry he wants to create. We could have something like "The pages/spaces/wikis/etc. above already exist. Are you sure you want to create a new <userEnteredEntityName> page/space/wiki/etc. instead of using one of the above?"

We could go as far as to force the user to check a checkbox before the "Create" button becomes enabled/clickable. This could either be a configuration option, based on the desire/intent/wishes of the admin of that wiki/space.

With a bit of effort, this could be done consistently for the entire "/create/" action and its plugged-in template providers.

...

This is why I'm proposing to place "Create" buttons in context. I

see at

...

least 3 places where this could be useful:

- "Create wiki" button on http:// <server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ - "Create space" button on hypothetical http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/SpacesIndex (similar to what we already have on the Dashboard) - "Create user" button on http://<server> /xwiki/bin/view/Main/UserDirectory

So from my point of view, by putting those buttons on those pages they would actually be easier to find and understand for end-users.

This will not solve anything if the user is already too lazy to search for existing entries before creating one. The one he wishes to create might be on the second page of the livetable and the lazy user will just go ahead and create the similar entry.

For this to be relatively effective in reducing duplication, we would have to implement something on the lines of what I have described above with the "reuse sugestion".

I`m not particularly against this approach (of adding create options in the list), since we were already doing this at some point and in some places, but I`m still -1 for scattering the create logic in various locations instead of using the centralized "Add" menu. If we don`t, we will have 99999 pages all inside the Main space and that's it. How`s that for a wiki gardening nightmare? :)

Thanks, Eduard

...

Thanks,

Guillaume

Thanks,

...

Eduard

---------- [1] http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/jqbcj4p4ryc56sms

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:

> Hi, > > We improved the things a bit by implementing > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928 > Now users can more rapidly create pages by using the implicit

value of

...

...

> 'Add'. > > Having all the option (Create Wiki, Create Space, Create Page) in the menu > is important IMO since you can create spaces (and wikis) from anywhere in > the wiki. You don't need to be in a certain location to do this action. > > I agree about having a Space Index of some sort and have a consistent way > of localizing/navigating Wikis/Spaces/Pages. Something similar to this idea > was the Explorer proposal > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/ExplorerApp > > Another related issue to this subject is > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9440, but again I think XWIKI-10928 > <http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928> improved the problem. > > Thanks, > Caty > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < [email protected] > > wrote: > > > Hi Devs, > > > > I'm currently testing XE 6.2, it's a great release, I love the new look a > > lot - well done guys! > > > > I have a quick remark that is related to the new location of the "Create" > > button. I think we should move the "create wiki" and "create space" > options > > from where they are located now. > > > > The "Create wiki" button could be moved under the list of wikis on this > > page: http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ > > > > We would probably need a similar "space index" page with the "Create > space" > > button there, a bit like what we have on the dashboard now: http:// > > <server>/xwiki/bin/view/Dashboard/ > > > > The objective being that when doing those create actions, they would be > > done with the context of the wikis / spaces that already exist. > > > > What is also a bit confusing for users is that since creating a new wiki > is > > much much bigger and less frequent than creating a new page, the action > > should not be available from every single page. > > > > This issue has become much more salient than before to me because of the > > new location of the "Create" button. What's your opinion about this? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Guillaume

On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:07 AM, Eduard Moraru <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi,

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi Caty,

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi,

So I think is a good idea to provide the ability to create wikis/spaces/page on their Indexes pages. In the case of Wiki Manager this was removed in http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9490 but if we re-add it we could standardize the creation of entities in their context (just like we do it on ColorThemes WebHome or on on Blog.WebHome).

Exactly :-) I'm +1 for this.

...

But even if we make this improvement, I still would want to have the ability to create wikis/spaces/pages in the Add menu.

As I've said before, I don't agree with this. Though I might be ok to keep the "Add space" action in there, with the improvements suggested by Edy, I strongly believe that the "Create new wiki" feature shouldn't be there. It's an infrequent action with strong consequences. It should be available as a tool from the main wiki, but definitely not from every page. Again, how often does any user create a new wiki? Even for a large organization, it will be mostly admins, and it will happen maybe a couple times a week after XWiki is launched internally.

So in the end we have an action that is performed by *very few people, a handful of times*, and we put it on *every single page in the main wiki and all sub-wikis*. I'm afraid that keeping all 3 actions in the same button is consistency for consistency's sake, but it just doesn't match XWiki users' behavior, nor their expectations.

Besides consistency, what is the rationale for having all 3 actions in one place? How do you back up your reasoning with actual user behavior? In your personal experience, how often do you use the "create wiki" button in its current location?

Big -1 for this!

It`s the *whole point why we`ve introduced Workspaces* (or wikis, or call it whatever you like). The whole idea is to empower the user to create his workspace where he can freely collaborate with his peers and install whatever applications they want.

That would be great, but does the user get the point, this is far from being the case actually. From a user stand point, explaining the difference between a wiki and a space is not easy. I have experiment that again this morning, and I have a very knowledgeable person in front of me. After presenting the structure, the question, "why do we need multiple wikis, since we have spaces ?", followed a few moment later by "Does the search box at the top search into all wikis ?".

You do have to consider the fact that you may have been exposed to tight organizational usages of XWiki where its users are the slaves of the admin and don`t/can`t really do anything without his approval. However, I personally (and hope am not alone here), want to make XWiki more than this and to allow it to be used by more open-minded organizations that empower their users and their collaboration.

Also, XWiki is a tool that is supposed to improve collaboration, not diminish it into "misticism" by calling the simple task of creating a wiki (which is part of XWiki's data model and, with a new model implementation could be even more seamlessly integrated without using primitive/rigid storage solutions such as databases) "an infrequent action with strong consequences".

Because this is an infrequent action with strong consequences in the way you organize your information. From the sysadmin POV, it means a new DB, with potential consequences on its backup and replication procedures. From the user POV, it is not the simple click of a button, after answering curious questions about user access, it goes to the distribution wizard, and, if she persistent, finally reach a new situation, where the she have to understand she is in a subwiki, and that all operation from there, like using the search box (the same search box, from his POV), will be scoped by that subwiki. Frankly, I do not understand this could not be called an "an infrequent action with strong consequences", compare to page creation (and space creation which is basically the same).

Oh, and don`t forget flavors, that are supposed to build even more on the above mentioned, so yes, you do need to create wikis easily and yes, you do need to promote that in the UI so that user's discover it and not bury it in some livetable in a space/page that users are intimidated by.

I have not seen any burying in Guillaume proposal, just a leveling of frequent actions and really less frequent one. That said, I doubt a lot of wiki will have that option available since most admin will limit the create_wiki right to knowledgeable users. And even, if the right is largely open, I doubt a lot of users will be persistent enough to fully finish the still complex process of creating a wiki. For sure, they will not do so very often, and therefore, that option will be in their way all the time for finally very casual usage. This is particularly true since this is the first option in the list. IMO the order of that list should be reversed: Page, Space, Wiki, from smallest to largest, from most frequent to less frequent, which was the order AFAIR in the initial Flamingo proposal. In regards to your CRUD principle, while you are fighting to keep the creation of wiki, why don't you expect to be able to add comments, attachment, object, classes, tags from the same button Add button ? These are frequent actions, that it would be nice to have there, and again was also (partly) in the initial Flamingo proposal. While the same proposal has never mentioned the Wiki in the Add menu. Finally, I am wondering why the proposal on which we agreed has been so much reworked during implementation.

Perhaps it's just a problem of perception at this point.

Thanks, Eduard

...

IMO is not one way or the other (and I don't agree with the duplication

...

argument). One way of creating entries (the Add menu way) is more generic, while the other way (contextual form placement on the

Homepages/Indexes)

...

is

...

specific to the entity type.

I don't mind having more that one button for an action in specific cases. But I don't think the "Create wiki" action is one of those cases.

Thanks,

Guillaume

...

Thanks, Caty

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Eduard Moraru <[email protected]> wrote:

...

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi,

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Eduard Moraru < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi Guillaume,

I have started a new discussion [1] on the topic of the new location of the Add menu in Flamingo which is, IMO, the real problem here.

I'll answer on this thread.

However, I stand by my point that creating a wiki or a space are different actions compared from adding a new page and as thus should be treated differently.

Regarding your actual proposal, I`d be inclined to -1 it, as IMO it makes

...

basic CRUD operations on the wiki model harder to perform (i.e. harder to find), and what we`d like to do is help people create content and structure, not the other way around.

I agree with the logic but I'm not sure I'm 100% in line with the conclusion. As you said, the goal is to help users create and structure their content.

Right now, when looking at existing installs, I often see cases where users created several spaces with similar names (which doesn't really help structure information). This is mainly because they didn't know that a space with a similar name already existed. Similarly, you wouldn't want someone to create a "Communication" wiki if the "MarketingCommunication" wiki already exists.

What I read from your example above is that we can improve the create page/space/wiki UIs to have a section that does a kind of suggest to the user based on the name of the new entry he wants to create. We could have something like "The pages/spaces/wikis/etc. above already exist. Are you sure you want to create a new <userEnteredEntityName> page/space/wiki/etc. instead of using one of the above?"

We could go as far as to force the user to check a checkbox before the "Create" button becomes enabled/clickable. This could either be a configuration option, based on the desire/intent/wishes of the admin of that wiki/space.

With a bit of effort, this could be done consistently for the entire "/create/" action and its plugged-in template providers.

...

This is why I'm proposing to place "Create" buttons in context. I

see at

...

least 3 places where this could be useful:

- "Create wiki" button on http:// <server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ - "Create space" button on hypothetical http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/SpacesIndex (similar to what we already have on the Dashboard) - "Create user" button on http://<server> /xwiki/bin/view/Main/UserDirectory

So from my point of view, by putting those buttons on those pages they would actually be easier to find and understand for end-users.

This will not solve anything if the user is already too lazy to search for existing entries before creating one. The one he wishes to create might be on the second page of the livetable and the lazy user will just go ahead and create the similar entry.

For this to be relatively effective in reducing duplication, we would have to implement something on the lines of what I have described above with the "reuse sugestion".

I`m not particularly against this approach (of adding create options in the list), since we were already doing this at some point and in some places, but I`m still -1 for scattering the create logic in various locations instead of using the centralized "Add" menu. If we don`t, we will have 99999 pages all inside the Main space and that's it. How`s that for a wiki gardening nightmare? :)

Thanks, Eduard

...

Thanks,

Guillaume

Thanks,

...

Eduard

---------- [1] http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/jqbcj4p4ryc56sms

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:

> Hi, > > We improved the things a bit by implementing > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928 > Now users can more rapidly create pages by using the implicit

value of

...

...

> 'Add'. > > Having all the option (Create Wiki, Create Space, Create Page) in the menu > is important IMO since you can create spaces (and wikis) from anywhere in > the wiki. You don't need to be in a certain location to do this action. > > I agree about having a Space Index of some sort and have a consistent way > of localizing/navigating Wikis/Spaces/Pages. Something similar to this idea > was the Explorer proposal > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/ExplorerApp > > Another related issue to this subject is > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9440, but again I think XWIKI-10928 > <http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928> improved the problem. > > Thanks, > Caty > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < [email protected] > > wrote: > > > Hi Devs, > > > > I'm currently testing XE 6.2, it's a great release, I love the new look a > > lot - well done guys! > > > > I have a quick remark that is related to the new location of the "Create" > > button. I think we should move the "create wiki" and "create space" > options > > from where they are located now. > > > > The "Create wiki" button could be moved under the list of wikis on this > > page: http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ > > > > We would probably need a similar "space index" page with the "Create > space" > > button there, a bit like what we have on the dashboard now: http:// > > <server>/xwiki/bin/view/Dashboard/ > > > > The objective being that when doing those create actions, they would be > > done with the context of the wikis / spaces that already exist. > > > > What is also a bit confusing for users is that since creating a new wiki > is > > much much bigger and less frequent than creating a new page, the action > > should not be available from every single page. > > > > This issue has become much more salient than before to me because of the > > new location of the "Create" button. What's your opinion about this? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Guillaume > > _______________________________________________ > > devs mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > _______________________________________________ > devs mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

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_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

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-- Denis Gervalle SOFTEC sa - CEO

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Edy,

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Eduard Moraru <[email protected]> wrote:

...

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi,

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Eduard Moraru <[email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi Guillaume,

I have started a new discussion [1] on the topic of the new location of the Add menu in Flamingo which is, IMO, the real problem here.

I'll answer on this thread.

However, I stand by my point that creating a wiki or a space are different actions compared from adding a new page and as thus should be treated differently.

Regarding your actual proposal, I`d be inclined to -1 it, as IMO it makes

...

basic CRUD operations on the wiki model harder to perform (i.e. harder to find), and what we`d like to do is help people create content and structure, not the other way around.

I agree with the logic but I'm not sure I'm 100% in line with the conclusion. As you said, the goal is to help users create and structure their content.

Right now, when looking at existing installs, I often see cases where users created several spaces with similar names (which doesn't really help structure information). This is mainly because they didn't know that a space with a similar name already existed. Similarly, you wouldn't want someone to create a "Communication" wiki if the "MarketingCommunication" wiki already exists.

What I read from your example above is that we can improve the create page/space/wiki UIs to have a section that does a kind of suggest to the user based on the name of the new entry he wants to create. We could have something like "The pages/spaces/wikis/etc. above already exist. Are you sure you want to create a new <userEnteredEntityName> page/space/wiki/etc. instead of using one of the above?"

We could go as far as to force the user to check a checkbox before the "Create" button becomes enabled/clickable. This could either be a configuration option, based on the desire/intent/wishes of the admin of that wiki/space.

With a bit of effort, this could be done consistently for the entire "/create/" action and its plugged-in template providers.

Having a consistent "create" action that would be available to applications creators would indeed be nice. We already have it for pages. We also sometimes implement it for spaces on some projects, when we want to introduce "typed spaces" for instance.

The autosuggest-based approach would probably work well here, like what we currently have for tags.

...

This is why I'm proposing to place "Create" buttons in context. I see at

...

least 3 places where this could be useful:

- "Create wiki" button on http:// <server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ - "Create space" button on hypothetical http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/SpacesIndex (similar to what we already have on the Dashboard) - "Create user" button on http://<server> /xwiki/bin/view/Main/UserDirectory

So from my point of view, by putting those buttons on those pages they would actually be easier to find and understand for end-users.

This will not solve anything if the user is already too lazy to search for existing entries before creating one. The one he wishes to create might be on the second page of the livetable and the lazy user will just go ahead and create the similar entry.

Having an autosuggest would help with this. Knowing what already exists is not the only use case. It's also that the user expects to be able to create a new entry of a specific type from the page where all entries of that type are listed.

...

For this to be relatively effective in reducing duplication, we would have to implement something on the lines of what I have described above with the "reuse sugestion".

I`m not particularly against this approach (of adding create options in the list), since we were already doing this at some point and in some places, but I`m still -1 for scattering the create logic in various locations instead of using the centralized "Add" menu. If we don`t, we will have 99999 pages all inside the Main space and that's it. How`s that for a wiki gardening nightmare? :)

Indeed. Maybe the "create space" option should stay. I still think the "create wiki" action is of a different breed.

Same note about a possible "problem of perception" as in my previous message. Thanks, Eduard

Thanks,

Guillaume

Thanks,

...

Eduard

...

Thanks,

Guillaume

Thanks,

...

Eduard

---------- [1] http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/jqbcj4p4ryc56sms

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < [email protected]> wrote:

...

Hi,

We improved the things a bit by implementing http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928 Now users can more rapidly create pages by using the implicit value

of

...

...

...

'Add'.

Having all the option (Create Wiki, Create Space, Create Page) in the menu is important IMO since you can create spaces (and wikis) from anywhere in the wiki. You don't need to be in a certain location to do this action.

I agree about having a Space Index of some sort and have a consistent way of localizing/navigating Wikis/Spaces/Pages. Something similar to this idea was the Explorer proposal http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/ExplorerApp

Another related issue to this subject is http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9440, but again I think XWIKI-10928 <http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928> improved the problem.

Thanks, Caty

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < [email protected]

wrote:

...

Hi Devs,

I'm currently testing XE 6.2, it's a great release, I love the new look a lot - well done guys!

I have a quick remark that is related to the new location of the "Create" button. I think we should move the "create wiki" and "create space" options from where they are located now.

The "Create wiki" button could be moved under the list of wikis on this page: http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/

We would probably need a similar "space index" page with the "Create space" button there, a bit like what we have on the dashboard now: http:// <server>/xwiki/bin/view/Dashboard/

The objective being that when doing those create actions, they would be done with the context of the wikis / spaces that already exist.

What is also a bit confusing for users is that since creating a new wiki is much much bigger and less frequent than creating a new page, the action should not be available from every single page.

This issue has become much more salient than before to me because of the new location of the "Create" button. What's your opinion about this?

Thanks,

Guillaume

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs