[xwiki-devs] [Rendering] Should we move to non meaningful spaces?
Hi, This is our last chance to change this behavior. We've found several places where having meaningful spaces are counter-productive: * in table cells since we can't align table anymore. For example: |= column1 |= column2 | this is some para | second column | hello | world (not sure this will be rendered nicely in mail but you see what I mean) * in scripts since having meaningful spaces prevents us from aligning velocity or groovy scripts. For ex we can't write: #if (....) #if (...) do something # end #end To see a better example have a look at http://tinyurl.com/ahz669 What I think users real want are meaningful new lines but I see cons overweighting pros for having meaningful white spaces. Thus I'm think we should strip whitespaces at beginning and end of lines including for line breaks. I'm slightly less sure for multiple spaces between words but even there I think we could strip them have users use {{{ }}} to put a non breaking space for ex (or introduce a {{space/}} macro or another special syntax although I'd rather we don't introduce a new syntax). WDYT? Thanks -Vincent http://xwiki.com http://xwiki.org http://massol.net
On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 15:44, Vincent Massol <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi,
This is our last chance to change this behavior. We've found several places where having meaningful spaces are counter-productive:
* in table cells since we can't align table anymore. For example:
|= column1 |= column2 | this is some para | second column | hello | world
(not sure this will be rendered nicely in mail but you see what I mean)
* in scripts since having meaningful spaces prevents us from aligning velocity or groovy scripts. For ex we can't write:
#if (....) #if (...) do something # end #end
To see a better example have a look at http://tinyurl.com/ahz669
What I think users real want are meaningful new lines but I see cons overweighting pros for having meaningful white spaces. Thus I'm think we should strip whitespaces at beginning and end of lines including for line breaks. I'm slightly less sure for multiple spaces between words but even there I think we could strip them have users use {{{ }}} to put a non breaking space for ex (or introduce a {{space/}} macro or another special syntax although I'd rather we don't introduce a new syntax).
+0 for making multiples spaces not meaningfull but we do it I would prefer ~(space) for non breaking space, it sounds more logical and nicer
WDYT?
Thanks -Vincent http://xwiki.com http://xwiki.org http://massol.net
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Thomas Mortagne
On Feb 28, 2009, at 3:50 PM, Thomas Mortagne wrote:
On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 15:44, Vincent Massol <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi,
This is our last chance to change this behavior. We've found several places where having meaningful spaces are counter-productive:
* in table cells since we can't align table anymore. For example:
|= column1 |= column2 | this is some para | second column | hello | world
(not sure this will be rendered nicely in mail but you see what I mean)
* in scripts since having meaningful spaces prevents us from aligning velocity or groovy scripts. For ex we can't write:
#if (....) #if (...) do something # end #end
To see a better example have a look at http://tinyurl.com/ahz669
What I think users real want are meaningful new lines but I see cons overweighting pros for having meaningful white spaces. Thus I'm think we should strip whitespaces at beginning and end of lines including for line breaks. I'm slightly less sure for multiple spaces between words but even there I think we could strip them have users use {{{ }}} to put a non breaking space for ex (or introduce a {{space/}} macro or another special syntax although I'd rather we don't introduce a new syntax).
+0 for making multiples spaces not meaningfull
Do you have another solution or does it mean that you don't think it's that important to be able to align scripts and tables?
but we do it I would prefer ~(space) for non breaking space, it sounds more logical and nicer
Yes good idea Thanks -Vincent
On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 16:59, Vincent Massol <[email protected]> wrote:
On Feb 28, 2009, at 3:50 PM, Thomas Mortagne wrote:
On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 15:44, Vincent Massol <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi,
This is our last chance to change this behavior. We've found several places where having meaningful spaces are counter-productive:
* in table cells since we can't align table anymore. For example:
|= column1 |= column2 | this is some para | second column | hello | world
(not sure this will be rendered nicely in mail but you see what I mean)
* in scripts since having meaningful spaces prevents us from aligning velocity or groovy scripts. For ex we can't write:
#if (....) #if (...) do something # end #end
To see a better example have a look at http://tinyurl.com/ahz669
What I think users real want are meaningful new lines but I see cons overweighting pros for having meaningful white spaces. Thus I'm think we should strip whitespaces at beginning and end of lines including for line breaks. I'm slightly less sure for multiple spaces between words but even there I think we could strip them have users use {{{ }}} to put a non breaking space for ex (or introduce a {{space/}} macro or another special syntax although I'd rather we don't introduce a new syntax).
+0 for making multiples spaces not meaningfull
Do you have another solution or does it mean that you don't think it's that important to be able to align scripts and tables?
No I don't have better solution and anyway you can align tables it will just generate non breaking spaces which does not change a lot when it's rendered except that it's crappy so it's not a real blocker for me.
but we do it I would prefer ~(space) for non breaking space, it sounds more logical and nicer
Yes good idea
Thanks -Vincent
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Thomas Mortagne
Vincent Massol wrote:
Hi,
This is our last chance to change this behavior. We've found several places where having meaningful spaces are counter-productive:
* in table cells since we can't align table anymore. For example:
|= column1 |= column2 | this is some para | second column | hello | world
(not sure this will be rendered nicely in mail but you see what I mean)
* in scripts since having meaningful spaces prevents us from aligning velocity or groovy scripts. For ex we can't write:
#if (....) #if (...) do something # end #end
To see a better example have a look at http://tinyurl.com/ahz669
What I think users real want are meaningful new lines but I see cons overweighting pros for having meaningful white spaces. Thus I'm think we should strip whitespaces at beginning and end of lines including for line breaks. I'm slightly less sure for multiple spaces between words but even there I think we could strip them have users use {{{ }}} to put a non breaking space for ex (or introduce a {{space/}} macro or another special syntax although I'd rather we don't introduce a new syntax).
I think that users want WYSIWYG spaces to be meaningful, but this isn't necessarily the same as wiki spaces. We should have a way to represent nbsps in the wiki syntax, and not keep all spaces as meaningful. Although the code will be bigger, it will allow wiki syntax users to format the source code as they want, and it will allow WYSIWYG users to format the result as they want. +1 for making spaces non-meaningful. +0.5 for ~{space} as a nbsp placehodler. +0 for {{{ }}} as a meaningful space marker. The question for {{{ }}} is how do we represent it in HTML? - <tt> with white-space: pre from css; -- Special care must be taken in the WYSIWYG to automatically split it in two when the user starts typing text inside, special care to remove the element once the user deletes all the spaces, special care to join two adjacent blocks, etc. - A series of nbsps, and the renderer/parser take care to transform from and to {{{ }}}. As for new lines, if we want to keep them meaningful, a good trick is to end velocity lines with ##, as this causes the EoL to be considered part of the comment. -- Sergiu Dumitriu http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
Hi, On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[email protected]> wrote:
- Show quoted text - Vincent Massol wrote:
Hi,
This is our last chance to change this behavior. We've found several places where having meaningful spaces are counter-productive:
* in table cells since we can't align table anymore. For example:
|= column1 |= column2 | this is some para | second column | hello | world
(not sure this will be rendered nicely in mail but you see what I mean)
* in scripts since having meaningful spaces prevents us from aligning velocity or groovy scripts. For ex we can't write:
#if (....) #if (...) do something # end #end
To see a better example have a look at http://tinyurl.com/ahz669
What I think users real want are meaningful new lines but I see cons overweighting pros for having meaningful white spaces. Thus I'm think we should strip whitespaces at beginning and end of lines including for line breaks. I'm slightly less sure for multiple spaces between words but even there I think we could strip them have users use {{{ }}} to put a non breaking space for ex (or introduce a {{space/}} macro or another special syntax although I'd rather we don't introduce a new syntax).
I think that users want WYSIWYG spaces to be meaningful, but this isn't necessarily the same as wiki spaces. We should have a way to represent nbsps in the wiki syntax, and not keep all spaces as meaningful. Although the code will be bigger, it will allow wiki syntax users to format the source code as they want, and it will allow WYSIWYG users to format the result as they want.
I agree with Sergiu here. Users of the wiki syntax will want non-meaningful spaces (for scripting especially) while WYSIWYG users will want spaces they enter on the screen to be reflected on the paged once saved (which is basically the purpose of a What You See Is What You Get editor). Thus having a special syntax for spaces would make sense. However it means that the resulting wiki code will be a bit harder to read... I have seen wiki pages with all around in the current syntax and it's not pretty.
+1 for making spaces non-meaningful.
+1
+0.5 for ~{space} as a nbsp placehodler.
+1 (unless there's a potentially better option)
+0 for {{{ }}} as a meaningful space marker.
Not sure this one would be useful... Guillaume
The question for {{{ }}} is how do we represent it in HTML? - <tt> with white-space: pre from css; -- Special care must be taken in the WYSIWYG to automatically split it in two when the user starts typing text inside, special care to remove the element once the user deletes all the spaces, special care to join two adjacent blocks, etc. - A series of nbsps, and the renderer/parser take care to transform from and to {{{ }}}.
As for new lines, if we want to keep them meaningful, a good trick is to end velocity lines with ##, as this causes the EoL to be considered part of the comment. -- Sergiu Dumitriu http://purl.org/net/sergiu/ - Show quoted text - _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Guillaume Lerouge Product Manager - XWiki Skype ID : wikibc http://guillaumelerouge.com/
participants (4)
-
Guillaume Lerouge -
Sergiu Dumitriu -
Thomas Mortagne -
Vincent Massol