Tr : [xwiki-users] translation of the documentation (ie. in french)
yep, Sure i dont see the daily number of contributions, maybe u're right ;) The only fact wich is difficult for me to understand is that there is only one english version even if there is some users that ask for french documentation..maybe they would like to contribute, maybe not..but where can they contribute ? You say about professionnal way, professionnal team and quality. Trying one french instance experimentation is a good way : i think authors must be called "french XWiki community" instead of "Official XWiki team".. Poor number of contribution on this instance will only say that there is not enough french users in the french XWiki community who would like to contribute on XWiki french website, and not that the XWiki or XWiki team aren't anough qualified. When you are saying about your experiment, i understand that the french version will be outdated, and i agree. You say about Jakarta Cactus outdated documentation that create a lot of feedbacks. I think a french user that discover XWiki website and don't speak english will create same number(even more!?) of feedback : FAQ / comments or simply don't come on this website... About the work needed to administrate this french instance, i completely agree. This is a critical point... I understand that this could be a main reason to avoid creating french version (for now ! :)). So maybe the official team could create the french instance with a warning "this website isn't official and is updated by users temself, please go to the official website for an updated content" or something like this (sorry for my poor english ;p) any way, thanks for your feedback Vincent. Boly38 ----- Message transféré ---- De : Vincent Massol <[email protected]> À : [email protected] Envoyé le : Vendredi, 9 Mars 2007, 0h01mn 34s Objet : Re: [xwiki-users] translation of the documentation (ie. in french) Brice, I forgot to say thanks for bringing this up and many thanks for wanting to contribute documentation (this is not often that it happens and it's great you're stepping up! :)). This is a topic we've mentioned several times in the past but we've never really tackled it so this is a good opportunity to discuss it all together. Once more I don't want my previous email to be viewed negatively. I'd also really like to have XWiki doc be translated into lots of languages. I'm just warning about the side effects... :) Thanks again -Vincent On Mar 8, 2007, at 11:58 PM, Vincent Massol wrote:
Hi Brice and everyone,
My current thinking:
* English should always be the default
* XWiki.org web site has to be of good quality. Our old old.xwiki.org wasn't good enough and contained lots of half finished stuff. It wasn't "professional" enough and was giving a bad "reputation" to XWiki. As XWiki.org is the official web site for XWiki we need it to be of professional quality. This has to be re-conciliated with the fact that any registered user can edit/add documentation to it. Not an easy task but one I've dedicated myself to by checking daily what gets added,etc and steering the community. However I *know* I won't have the bandwidth for keep track of xwiki.org's content in several languages and keep the same quality in all languages.
* My initial thinking was: everything should be in English so that all efforts can be mutualized and efforts are not lost in divergences. I still believe this is the case because frankly seen the number of edits we have I don't think there are enough documentation contributors to allow several language translations to be done and to live on. Brice, you're comparing it to Wikipedia but do you know how many people are contributing daily there? :-) I wish we had that number...
* I think we should provide a space for users who want to translate XWiki documentation in different languages but I don't think these translations should be "endorsed" by the XWiki development team as we won't be able to guarantee the quality. I think they should be maintained by contributors only. As a consequence I think the best is to create a translation web site on the XWiki.com farm for people who are interested in translating the xwiki documentation (we could even possibly provide such a site on xwiki.org, as <language>.xwiki.org (and xwiki.org/<language> would redirect to it using URL rewriting). We would need a big disclaimer on these sites saying that: 1) this is work done by contributors and not by the XWiki development team 2) that the official site is http://xwiki.org
* It's a pity we don't use the XWiki internationalization feature for this but I don't see how to reconcile the points above with it and I'd rather we not use this feature than risk disappointing users if they see incomplete or low level documentation in some language.
* To be honest I'm personally really skeptical that such translations will work. As the creator of Jakarta Cactus, I have experienced such kind of translations and it has never really worked. Translations are always months and even years behind the official translations, you get emails on the project mailing list asking for support because they're looking at an outdated documentation, and the solution is on the english documentation page.
<more thinking...>
* Hmm... I guess we could turn on internationalization for xwiki.org but: 1) we would need to find a way to put the disclaimers I mentioned on *each* translated page as a header for example 2) we would need one translation champion for each language. That person would be dedicating himself/herself to drive the contributions for that language, to organize them, guarantee a good quality level, remove wiki vandalism as they happen (this happens daily but to a small degree)
WDYT?
Before answering, please bear in mind that today I am doing 90% of the work for xwiki.org so it may sound easy but it's a lot of sweat and hard work and it doesn't happen automagically :-)
Thanks -Vincent
On Mar 8, 2007, at 11:21 PM, [email protected] wrote:
hello, I m new user of XWiki, and i want to help the xwiki "community" translating the documentation (ie. in french). I was starting doing it on xwiki.com on the "Admin guide" some days before but without any permission. So today, i asked you here how must we process ?
I got a mail from Vincent Massol and so, some questions are : - how can't we be sure that the french version of the documentation will be an updated version ? - how prevent new information(s) on the french version that wouldn't appear on the english one ? - what will be the interact(s) between a french and an english version ?
This is my opinion, but of course we must discuss about this : If we see the wikipedia contribution process, then there is one wiki instance for each language. The only interact is an interlang link between article(s).
Differents versions could be, and (often) are different ! I think we must do the same for xwiki documentation. Got a dirty version of the documentation is better than nothing!
Vincent was talking to me about starting a french instance of xwiki website. I think : maybe not, this is a good idea ! For me, french and english community of xwiki can progress on 2 distinct ways without any problem. Sure, there will be some people to make bridge..
What are you thinking about this ? please give us your opinion.
Best regards Boly38
NB: Vincent Massol, please correct me if i do some mistake :)
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The warning can be placed in the template, so it will always be visible. Anyway, I think that placing the documentation in another place is not good. It is hard to track changes on the main site and do the same thing on 3-4 different sites, when the pages are not linked. Having all the translations in one place is good. What we can do, is to make a velocity script to display pages with no <lang> version, pages where the <lang> version is more than 2 weeks older than the english version, etc. A drawback is the fact that objects aren't translatable. This means that comments are per page, not per translation, and this will possibly create a mixture of comments in "all the languages of the word" (hopefully). Sergiu. On 3/9/07, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
yep, Sure i dont see the daily number of contributions, maybe u're right ;) The only fact wich is difficult for me to understand is that there is only one english version even if there is some users that ask for french documentation..maybe they would like to contribute, maybe not..but where can they contribute ?
You say about professionnal way, professionnal team and quality. Trying one french instance experimentation is a good way : i think authors must be called "french XWiki community" instead of "Official XWiki team".. Poor number of contribution on this instance will only say that there is not enough french users in the french XWiki community who would like to contribute on XWiki french website, and not that the XWiki or XWiki team aren't anough qualified.
When you are saying about your experiment, i understand that the french version will be outdated, and i agree. You say about Jakarta Cactus outdated documentation that create a lot of feedbacks. I think a french user that discover XWiki website and don't speak english will create same number(even more!?) of feedback : FAQ / comments or simply don't come on this website...
About the work needed to administrate this french instance, i completely agree. This is a critical point... I understand that this could be a main reason to avoid creating french version (for now ! :)). So maybe the official team could create the french instance with a warning "this website isn't official and is updated by users temself, please go to the official website for an updated content" or something like this (sorry for my poor english ;p)
any way, thanks for your feedback Vincent. Boly38
----- Message transféré ---- De : Vincent Massol <[email protected]> À : [email protected] Envoyé le : Vendredi, 9 Mars 2007, 0h01mn 34s Objet : Re: [xwiki-users] translation of the documentation (ie. in french)
Brice,
I forgot to say thanks for bringing this up and many thanks for wanting to contribute documentation (this is not often that it happens and it's great you're stepping up! :)).
This is a topic we've mentioned several times in the past but we've never really tackled it so this is a good opportunity to discuss it all together.
Once more I don't want my previous email to be viewed negatively. I'd also really like to have XWiki doc be translated into lots of languages. I'm just warning about the side effects... :)
Thanks again -Vincent
On Mar 8, 2007, at 11:58 PM, Vincent Massol wrote:
Hi Brice and everyone,
My current thinking:
* English should always be the default
* XWiki.org web site has to be of good quality. Our old old.xwiki.org wasn't good enough and contained lots of half finished stuff. It wasn't "professional" enough and was giving a bad "reputation" to XWiki. As XWiki.org is the official web site for XWiki we need it to be of professional quality. This has to be re-conciliated with the fact that any registered user can edit/add documentation to it. Not an easy task but one I've dedicated myself to by checking daily what gets added,etc and steering the community. However I *know* I won't have the bandwidth for keep track of xwiki.org's content in several languages and keep the same quality in all languages.
* My initial thinking was: everything should be in English so that all efforts can be mutualized and efforts are not lost in divergences. I still believe this is the case because frankly seen the number of edits we have I don't think there are enough documentation contributors to allow several language translations to be done and to live on. Brice, you're comparing it to Wikipedia but do you know how many people are contributing daily there? :-) I wish we had that number...
* I think we should provide a space for users who want to translate XWiki documentation in different languages but I don't think these translations should be "endorsed" by the XWiki development team as we won't be able to guarantee the quality. I think they should be maintained by contributors only. As a consequence I think the best is to create a translation web site on the XWiki.com farm for people who are interested in translating the xwiki documentation (we could even possibly provide such a site on xwiki.org, as <language>.xwiki.org (and xwiki.org/<language> would redirect to it using URL rewriting). We would need a big disclaimer on these sites saying that: 1) this is work done by contributors and not by the XWiki development team 2) that the official site is http://xwiki.org
* It's a pity we don't use the XWiki internationalization feature for this but I don't see how to reconcile the points above with it and I'd rather we not use this feature than risk disappointing users if they see incomplete or low level documentation in some language.
* To be honest I'm personally really skeptical that such translations will work. As the creator of Jakarta Cactus, I have experienced such kind of translations and it has never really worked. Translations are always months and even years behind the official translations, you get emails on the project mailing list asking for support because they're looking at an outdated documentation, and the solution is on the english documentation page.
<more thinking...>
* Hmm... I guess we could turn on internationalization for xwiki.org but: 1) we would need to find a way to put the disclaimers I mentioned on *each* translated page as a header for example 2) we would need one translation champion for each language. That person would be dedicating himself/herself to drive the contributions for that language, to organize them, guarantee a good quality level, remove wiki vandalism as they happen (this happens daily but to a small degree)
WDYT?
Before answering, please bear in mind that today I am doing 90% of the work for xwiki.org so it may sound easy but it's a lot of sweat and hard work and it doesn't happen automagically :-)
Thanks -Vincent
On Mar 8, 2007, at 11:21 PM, [email protected] wrote:
hello, I m new user of XWiki, and i want to help the xwiki "community" translating the documentation (ie. in french). I was starting doing it on xwiki.com on the "Admin guide" some days before but without any permission. So today, i asked you here how must we process ?
I got a mail from Vincent Massol and so, some questions are : - how can't we be sure that the french version of the documentation will be an updated version ? - how prevent new information(s) on the french version that wouldn't appear on the english one ? - what will be the interact(s) between a french and an english version ?
This is my opinion, but of course we must discuss about this : If we see the wikipedia contribution process, then there is one wiki instance for each language. The only interact is an interlang link between article(s).
Differents versions could be, and (often) are different ! I think we must do the same for xwiki documentation. Got a dirty version of the documentation is better than nothing!
Vincent was talking to me about starting a french instance of xwiki website. I think : maybe not, this is a good idea ! For me, french and english community of xwiki can progress on 2 distinct ways without any problem. Sure, there will be some people to make bridge..
What are you thinking about this ? please give us your opinion.
Best regards Boly38
NB: Vincent Massol, please correct me if i do some mistake :)
On Mar 9, 2007, at 7:01 AM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:
The warning can be placed in the template, so it will always be visible.
Anyway, I think that placing the documentation in another place is not good. It is hard to track changes on the main site and do the same thing on 3-4 different sites, when the pages are not linked. Having all the translations in one place is good. What we can do, is to make a velocity script to display pages with no <lang> version, pages where the <lang> version is more than 2 weeks older than the english version, etc.
A drawback is the fact that objects aren't translatable. This means that comments are per page, not per translation, and this will possibly create a mixture of comments in "all the languages of the word" (hopefully).
Yes and that's already a pain in the FAQ zone. -Vincent
Sergiu.
On 3/9/07, [email protected] < lopensource- [email protected]> wrote: yep, Sure i dont see the daily number of contributions, maybe u're right ;) The only fact wich is difficult for me to understand is that there is only one english version even if there is some users that ask for french documentation..maybe they would like to contribute, maybe not..but where can they contribute ?
You say about professionnal way, professionnal team and quality. Trying one french instance experimentation is a good way : i think authors must be called "french XWiki community" instead of "Official XWiki team".. Poor number of contribution on this instance will only say that there is not enough french users in the french XWiki community who would like to contribute on XWiki french website, and not that the XWiki or XWiki team aren't anough qualified.
When you are saying about your experiment, i understand that the french version will be outdated, and i agree. You say about Jakarta Cactus outdated documentation that create a lot of feedbacks. I think a french user that discover XWiki website and don't speak english will create same number(even more!?) of feedback : FAQ / comments or simply don't come on this website...
About the work needed to administrate this french instance, i completely agree. This is a critical point... I understand that this could be a main reason to avoid creating french version (for now ! :)). So maybe the official team could create the french instance with a warning "this website isn't official and is updated by users temself, please go to the official website for an updated content" or something like this (sorry for my poor english ;p)
any way, thanks for your feedback Vincent. Boly38
----- Message transféré ---- De : Vincent Massol < [email protected]> À : [email protected] Envoyé le : Vendredi, 9 Mars 2007, 0h01mn 34s Objet : Re: [xwiki-users] translation of the documentation (ie. in french)
Brice,
I forgot to say thanks for bringing this up and many thanks for wanting to contribute documentation (this is not often that it happens and it's great you're stepping up! :)).
This is a topic we've mentioned several times in the past but we've never really tackled it so this is a good opportunity to discuss it all together.
Once more I don't want my previous email to be viewed negatively. I'd also really like to have XWiki doc be translated into lots of languages. I'm just warning about the side effects... :)
Thanks again -Vincent
On Mar 8, 2007, at 11:58 PM, Vincent Massol wrote:
Hi Brice and everyone,
My current thinking:
* English should always be the default
* XWiki.org web site has to be of good quality. Our old old.xwiki.org wasn't good enough and contained lots of half finished stuff. It wasn't "professional" enough and was giving a bad "reputation" to XWiki. As XWiki.org is the official web site for XWiki we need it to be of professional quality. This has to be re-conciliated with the fact that any registered user can edit/add documentation to it. Not an easy task but one I've dedicated myself to by checking daily what gets added,etc and steering the community. However I *know* I won't have the bandwidth for keep track of xwiki.org's content in several languages and keep the same quality in all languages.
* My initial thinking was: everything should be in English so that all efforts can be mutualized and efforts are not lost in divergences. I still believe this is the case because frankly seen the number of edits we have I don't think there are enough documentation contributors to allow several language translations to be done and to live on. Brice, you're comparing it to Wikipedia but do you know how many people are contributing daily there? :-) I wish we had that number...
* I think we should provide a space for users who want to translate XWiki documentation in different languages but I don't think these translations should be "endorsed" by the XWiki development team as we won't be able to guarantee the quality. I think they should be maintained by contributors only. As a consequence I think the best is to create a translation web site on the XWiki.com farm for people who are interested in translating the xwiki documentation (we could even possibly provide such a site on xwiki.org, as <language>.xwiki.org (and xwiki.org/<language> would redirect to it using URL rewriting). We would need a big disclaimer on these sites saying that: 1) this is work done by contributors and not by the XWiki development team 2) that the official site is http://xwiki.org
* It's a pity we don't use the XWiki internationalization feature for this but I don't see how to reconcile the points above with it and I'd rather we not use this feature than risk disappointing users if they see incomplete or low level documentation in some language.
* To be honest I'm personally really skeptical that such translations will work. As the creator of Jakarta Cactus, I have experienced such kind of translations and it has never really worked. Translations are always months and even years behind the official translations, you get emails on the project mailing list asking for support because they're looking at an outdated documentation, and the solution is on the english documentation page.
<more thinking...>
* Hmm... I guess we could turn on internationalization for xwiki.org but: 1) we would need to find a way to put the disclaimers I mentioned on *each* translated page as a header for example 2) we would need one translation champion for each language. That person would be dedicating himself/herself to drive the contributions for that language, to organize them, guarantee a good quality level, remove wiki vandalism as they happen (this happens daily but to a small degree)
WDYT?
Before answering, please bear in mind that today I am doing 90% of the work for xwiki.org so it may sound easy but it's a lot of sweat and hard work and it doesn't happen automagically :-)
Thanks -Vincent
On Mar 8, 2007, at 11:21 PM, [email protected] wrote:
hello, I m new user of XWiki, and i want to help the xwiki "community" translating the documentation (ie. in french). I was starting doing it on xwiki.com on the "Admin guide" some days before but without any permission. So today, i asked you here how must we process ?
I got a mail from Vincent Massol and so, some questions are : - how can't we be sure that the french version of the documentation will be an updated version ? - how prevent new information(s) on the french version that wouldn't appear on the english one ? - what will be the interact(s) between a french and an english version ?
This is my opinion, but of course we must discuss about this : If we see the wikipedia contribution process, then there is one wiki instance for each language. The only interact is an interlang link between article(s).
Differents versions could be, and (often) are different ! I think we must do the same for xwiki documentation. Got a dirty version of the documentation is better than nothing!
Vincent was talking to me about starting a french instance of xwiki website. I think : maybe not, this is a good idea ! For me, french and english community of xwiki can progress on 2 distinct ways without any problem. Sure, there will be some people to make bridge..
What are you thinking about this ? please give us your opinion.
Best regards Boly38
NB: Vincent Massol, please correct me if i do some mistake :)
-- You receive this message as a subscriber of the xwiki- [email protected] mailing list. To unsubscribe: mailto:[email protected] For general help: mailto:[email protected]?subject=help ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/ wws
On 3/9/07, Vincent Massol <[email protected]> wrote:
On Mar 9, 2007, at 7:01 AM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:
A drawback is the fact that objects aren't translatable. This means that comments are per page, not per translation, and this will possibly create a mixture of comments in "all the languages of the word" (hopefully).
Yes and that's already a pain in the FAQ zone.
s/word/world -- http://purl.org/net/sergiu
Hi Brice, First let me thank you also for volunteering on working on a French version of the documentation. I also believe that the translation feature is something that works if you have sufficient editorial teams and make sure everything is translated properly. Since documentation is a very "community" oriented process, we are very probably better of with separate spaces and maybe even web sites. So we have 2 options here: 1/ Open a French space on xwiki.org and give control of it to a french community. 2/ Open http://fr.xwiki.org and give control of it to a french community. It's a little challenge to keep it separate since we'll need work to administer it. However it will also be even more open to community involvement since the person in charge would have full control on it. Which also means this person can innovate in terms of community management. Now Brice might not have planned to do "community work" but only "documentation work". If Brice is interested in lauching the XWiki French community, then we should open http://fr.xwiki.org If not we should keep it simple and just open an "Fr" space on xwiki.org and start translating the most important documentation there. Ludovic [email protected] a écrit :
yep, Sure i dont see the daily number of contributions, maybe u're right ;) The only fact wich is difficult for me to understand is that there is only one english version even if there is some users that ask for french documentation..maybe they would like to contribute, maybe not..but where can they contribute ?
You say about professionnal way, professionnal team and quality. Trying one french instance experimentation is a good way : i think authors must be called "french XWiki community" instead of "Official XWiki team".. Poor number of contribution on this instance will only say that there is not enough french users in the french XWiki community who would like to contribute on XWiki french website, and not that the XWiki or XWiki team aren't anough qualified.
When you are saying about your experiment, i understand that the french version will be outdated, and i agree. You say about Jakarta Cactus outdated documentation that create a lot of feedbacks. I think a french user that discover XWiki website and don't speak english will create same number(even more!?) of feedback : FAQ / comments or simply don't come on this website...
About the work needed to administrate this french instance, i completely agree. This is a critical point... I understand that this could be a main reason to avoid creating french version (for now ! :)). So maybe the official team could create the french instance with a warning "this website isn't official and is updated by users temself, please go to the official website for an updated content" or something like this (sorry for my poor english ;p)
any way, thanks for your feedback Vincent. Boly38
----- Message transféré ---- De : Vincent Massol <[email protected]> À : [email protected] Envoyé le : Vendredi, 9 Mars 2007, 0h01mn 34s Objet : Re: [xwiki-users] translation of the documentation (ie. in french)
Brice,
I forgot to say thanks for bringing this up and many thanks for wanting to contribute documentation (this is not often that it happens and it's great you're stepping up! :)).
This is a topic we've mentioned several times in the past but we've never really tackled it so this is a good opportunity to discuss it all together.
Once more I don't want my previous email to be viewed negatively. I'd also really like to have XWiki doc be translated into lots of languages. I'm just warning about the side effects... :)
Thanks again -Vincent
On Mar 8, 2007, at 11:58 PM, Vincent Massol wrote:
Hi Brice and everyone,
My current thinking:
* English should always be the default
* XWiki.org web site has to be of good quality. Our old old.xwiki.org wasn't good enough and contained lots of half finished stuff. It wasn't "professional" enough and was giving a bad "reputation" to XWiki. As XWiki.org is the official web site for XWiki we need it to be of professional quality. This has to be re-conciliated with the fact that any registered user can edit/add documentation to it. Not an easy task but one I've dedicated myself to by checking daily what gets added,etc and steering the community. However I *know* I won't have the bandwidth for keep track of xwiki.org's content in several languages and keep the same quality in all languages.
* My initial thinking was: everything should be in English so that all efforts can be mutualized and efforts are not lost in divergences. I still believe this is the case because frankly seen the number of edits we have I don't think there are enough documentation contributors to allow several language translations to be done and to live on. Brice, you're comparing it to Wikipedia but do you know how many people are contributing daily there? :-) I wish we had that number...
* I think we should provide a space for users who want to translate XWiki documentation in different languages but I don't think these translations should be "endorsed" by the XWiki development team as we won't be able to guarantee the quality. I think they should be maintained by contributors only. As a consequence I think the best is to create a translation web site on the XWiki.com farm for people who are interested in translating the xwiki documentation (we could even possibly provide such a site on xwiki.org, as <language>.xwiki.org (and xwiki.org/<language> would redirect to it using URL rewriting). We would need a big disclaimer on these sites saying that: 1) this is work done by contributors and not by the XWiki development team 2) that the official site is http://xwiki.org
* It's a pity we don't use the XWiki internationalization feature for this but I don't see how to reconcile the points above with it and I'd rather we not use this feature than risk disappointing users if they see incomplete or low level documentation in some language.
* To be honest I'm personally really skeptical that such translations will work. As the creator of Jakarta Cactus, I have experienced such kind of translations and it has never really worked. Translations are always months and even years behind the official translations, you get emails on the project mailing list asking for support because they're looking at an outdated documentation, and the solution is on the english documentation page.
<more thinking...>
* Hmm... I guess we could turn on internationalization for xwiki.org but: 1) we would need to find a way to put the disclaimers I mentioned on *each* translated page as a header for example 2) we would need one translation champion for each language. That person would be dedicating himself/herself to drive the contributions for that language, to organize them, guarantee a good quality level, remove wiki vandalism as they happen (this happens daily but to a small degree)
WDYT?
Before answering, please bear in mind that today I am doing 90% of the work for xwiki.org so it may sound easy but it's a lot of sweat and hard work and it doesn't happen automagically :-)
Thanks -Vincent
On Mar 8, 2007, at 11:21 PM, [email protected] wrote:
hello, I m new user of XWiki, and i want to help the xwiki "community" translating the documentation (ie. in french). I was starting doing it on xwiki.com on the "Admin guide" some days before but without any permission. So today, i asked you here how must we process ?
I got a mail from Vincent Massol and so, some questions are : - how can't we be sure that the french version of the documentation will be an updated version ? - how prevent new information(s) on the french version that wouldn't appear on the english one ? - what will be the interact(s) between a french and an english version ?
This is my opinion, but of course we must discuss about this : If we see the wikipedia contribution process, then there is one wiki instance for each language. The only interact is an interlang link between article(s).
Differents versions could be, and (often) are different ! I think we must do the same for xwiki documentation. Got a dirty version of the documentation is better than nothing!
Vincent was talking to me about starting a french instance of xwiki website. I think : maybe not, this is a good idea ! For me, french and english community of xwiki can progress on 2 distinct ways without any problem. Sure, there will be some people to make bridge..
What are you thinking about this ? please give us your opinion.
Best regards Boly38
NB: Vincent Massol, please correct me if i do some mistake :)
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participants (4)
-
lopensource-cestbien＠yahoo.fr -
Ludovic Dubost -
Sergiu Dumitriu -
Vincent Massol