[xwiki-users] [Proposal] Rights Management UI
Hi, Take a look at Rights 5 http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights5Space Added: * information regarding the advanced rights (inherits, overrides) * icons built together as a whole http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ic... * representation of "advanced rights" with the same abstract icon, but with different color (no text; we can debate this) http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/co... * inheritance arrow married with +/- IMGs (in case of browser problem) - collapsed: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri... - expanded: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri... On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:42, Denis Gervalle <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caty,
On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 18:09, Ecaterina Valica <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Denis,
I want to thank you again for all the help you are giving :P
This is pleasure to participate especially because you provide really good proposals. I would also like to see others participating, currently the discussion is becoming to much bilateral IMO.
Please take a look at a proposal for "V3 and my 3)" version with elements from Rights2 :)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal
and in "action" http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Space
Really nice job ! I really appreciate.
The prototype is not reflecting the "desired" interaction: both inherited info and rights change appear on hover (right icon and arrow), instead of hover | click.
I am not sure what are really your intend. I think that the big tooltips describing the rights should be the only tooltips, and should be show on hover only after a small timeout (like the yellow one currently). Clicking any where on the +/- icon or v would then open the menu. Is it what you try ?
yes, on hover show the tooltip, on click show the menu.
That "v" needs to be an arrow like the one we use in the action menus.
On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 19:06, Denis Gervalle <[email protected]> wrote:
Caty,
Really nice and interesting post, I will try to reach that level... but without visual :\
I really think that using the collapsed view for editing would helps basic users to have a simplified and more easy interface to understand. We
may
even imagine that only "advanced user" (those marked so in their profile), has access to the expanded view.
I think that the collapsed view missed an additional icon that summarize the rights that are not shown. This one would only be shown if there is any non-defaulted additional right in action.
This is a signal that extended
rights are in use (See it like the grey box of Windows when special rights are setup, which is inviting to go into advanced view to know more). This one would be obviously not editable, and should probably work like the ... or replace it ? In place of the ... . Concerning the ..., I am not sure, but I would also prefer to see a textual link "advanced" in small font, and only visible when row is hovered.
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal#HR...
Sorry to insist, but the information regarding the advanced rights is still missing in collapsed mode. I really would like to have a indicator that some advanced rights has been set locally or not without having to go advanced mode. Else, you will have to expand all rows to check that information, which is not practical.
Order of right are not significant, so I would prefer that in all view, these where in the same order, with the basic right first (V/C/E/D/A/P) and the additional right in their order of registration (hope that it will stay constant... or we will have to find a way to keep them ordered). The "right" part of each icon should be grayed if the right is
inherited
and not grayed if the right is set locally, this improve the information provided in V3.
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal#HA...
The problem with this icons (taken from Silk) is that there is little difference for View, Comment, Admin icons between the two states (inherited, locally set) - but this is something we can easily improve (by changing
the
icons and looking for some more contrast). Example: This is how they look when all rights are set locally (full color)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights43Proposa...
I also think that the +/- (which is never grayed) could be nearer to the right icon. Maybe you could use a green V and a read
"stop"
in place of +/- ?
The other mockup versions (like http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights41Space) used v/x for the allow/deny representation, and yes, I agree that they are more suited than +/-.
The problem is that we are using in XWiki, X to represent delete, so having two xX was too much, that's why I introduced +/-. Maybe we can find another solution.
I think we need some polishing on the icons used. Building them specifically would be nice, but I do not know if you or anyone want to have a try at that. My feeling is that the couple +/- or better v/x and the right icon should be built together and closer to each other providing the information as a whole and not giving the impression of two part. Using a v for suggesting the menu is nice, could be even improved by styling some "button like" borders on hover.
All menus could also be improved by using the inheritance arrow married with +/- (or v/x) to show immediately what will be the right if inheritance is used.
Regarding the collapsed view, I see three possibilities to investigate
for
allowing edition while improving readability (note that readability has the same issue in expanded view, but it seems to be less annoying) :
1) use V3, but when hovering a row, use V2 on that row and allow drag/drop (keeping V2 until drop even is hover is temporary lost). Not sure this will be nice in practice ? see 2)
2) use a presentation in 4 columns, for both collapsed and expanded
view,
the first column behing a read-only summary like V3, and the 3 column being an ordered V1. However, dragging from summary would be allowed. The 3 detailed column could be shown only when a drag is started from summary, or with a global horizontal expansion button... Basic user would have access to this, but not necessarily to vertical row expansion. Not sure this is not an increase in complexity ? so, see 3)
3) use V3, and a similar interface to what we have in current right management interface. Since saved are postponed (not like we have currently), using this one may be both practical and could helps the transition for existing user as well. With all the belts and whistle added to clearly state changes and inheritance, this will be similar but really better than what we have.
If we go for V3 and my 3) proposal, I also wonder if the current table header is well done. I do not like it when nothing is expanded since it is confusing, too large, and not significant. It will be even more unexpected if you follow me on the "advance user" case, when a basic user look at it. Maybe you could try a changing header, only expanding when there is expanded row, or, you could move the expanded header in each expanded row, keeping a simplified header at the top.
WDYT ?
Denis
Other problem that this proposal has is the representation of "advanced rights". If we don't like the textual description and we want to add icons, IMO we have two solutions:
A) use the same abstract icon, but with different color, ex. a key or lock icon with color representation ("blue" for "programming", "green" for "captchaComment", etc) - the problem here is for the people that have some kind color blindness and will not distinguish between some color tones (this is the case when we gonna have lots of "advanced" | non default rights)
B) use the same abstract icon and with an order index (like numbers 1, 2, etc or characters A, B, etc)
These representations are based on the fact that "advanced rights" will be added by other developers and the icon will not be custom made for a specif right.
Why not just use the big Icons from the menu (using the inheritance arrow married with +/- as proposed above), and directly followed by the v arrow. All this in front of the text ?
inheritance arrow + "right" - to describe "right" as inherited allowed inheritance arrow - "right" - to describe "right" as inherited denied + "right" - to describe "right" allowed - "right" - to describe "right" denied yes - we could do that if we decide to use the textual variant.
Using a generic icon will not improve information and detailed view of advanced right in collapsed mode is not expected.
It is not clearly shown on your samples, how multiple advance right would be shown. I think one per row is nice, or if you want to limit space, 2 or 3 at most, shown in columns ?
this depends on which version (textual, icons) we choose for the advanced rights (I would prefer something linear)
I also wonder is this would help or not to also extends basic rights in advanced mode, showing the icons and the text ?
I think this would only add duplicates and mess a bit the meaning of "advanced" by combining them with "regular".
Another thing we need to consider for this proposal is how the filtering
is
gonna be made.
Good point. Here is some proposal for each column:
1) a dropdown list proposing local (default), global or both ?
I would prefer rights separation depending on the location: - if you want to see global rights - go to global; - if you want to see wiki rights - go to wiki, etc. http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights3Proposal#HNa... Why would you like to see both local and global? (filtering?) I think it will be easier for the user if they are separated. 2) a textbox which filter on names
For advanced users would be nice to have queries, like "allow view" AND "inherit deny delete" :)
3) a dropdown list proposing all (default), hide inherited only, and maybe the list of rights, showing only rows where the selected right is set locally ?
The dropdown with the list of rights (view, edit, etc.) could also have another dropdown next to it to set the state of the right (inherited, allowed, denied) Thanks, Caty
Hi Caty, This version is really cool, just some minor comments: When I mouse over some right icon (FF 3.6), the dropdown menu with allow/deny/etc. is shown, but this menu is very hard to see, because it has almost the same color as the background and the icons are right above the right icons from the line below. The popup with the hint what right it is and why it is inherited is really helpful, but to open it I need to hit the small triangle near to the icon, otherwise only the dropdown menu is shown (but maybe its just because it is not the final version). This might be quite hard for some people. I'd made the icons larger (at least 24x24) and add more contrast (right now inherited rights look like disabled GUI controls to me), especially to the dropdown menu, view right icon and inherited right arrow from the menu. Alex On 06/04/2010 06:54 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
Hi,
Take a look at Rights 5 http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights5Space
Added: * information regarding the advanced rights (inherits, overrides) * icons built together as a whole http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ic... * representation of "advanced rights" with the same abstract icon, but with different color (no text; we can debate this) http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/co... * inheritance arrow married with +/-
IMGs (in case of browser problem) - collapsed: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri... - expanded: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri...
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:42, Denis Gervalle <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caty,
On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 18:09, Ecaterina Valica <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Denis,
I want to thank you again for all the help you are giving :P
This is pleasure to participate especially because you provide really good proposals. I would also like to see others participating, currently the discussion is becoming to much bilateral IMO.
Please take a look at a proposal for "V3 and my 3)" version with elements from Rights2 :)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal
and in "action" http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Space
Really nice job ! I really appreciate.
The prototype is not reflecting the "desired" interaction: both inherited info and rights change appear on hover (right icon and arrow), instead of hover | click.
I am not sure what are really your intend. I think that the big tooltips describing the rights should be the only tooltips, and should be show on hover only after a small timeout (like the yellow one currently). Clicking any where on the +/- icon or v would then open the menu. Is it what you try ?
yes, on hover show the tooltip, on click show the menu.
<snip>
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 20:57, Alex Busenius <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caty,
This version is really cool, just some minor comments:
When I mouse over some right icon (FF 3.6), the dropdown menu with allow/deny/etc. is shown, but this menu is very hard to see, because it has almost the same color as the background and the icons are right above the right icons from the line below.
The popup with the hint what right it is and why it is inherited is really helpful, but to open it I need to hit the small triangle near to the icon, otherwise only the dropdown menu is shown (but maybe its just because it is not the final version). This might be quite hard for some people.
Hi Alex, yes I know - I reused existing classes from XWiki, didn't made anything custom, that's why is acting like this. The "desired" interaction will be on hover (icon or arrow) show the inheritance tooltip, on click show the menu.
I'd made the icons larger (at least 24x24) and add more contrast (right now inherited rights look like disabled GUI controls to me), especially to the dropdown menu, view right icon and inherited right arrow from the menu.
The main disadvantage of this proposal is it's contrast: ColorThemes variables (highlightColor, secondaryBackgroundColor) and icons. I choose the icons form Silk set, because they are used everywhere in XWiki. The rationale was the consistency and look&feel. That's why they all are 16x16. If we choose this version as the final one, but we are not pleased with these icons, we need to find another set (maybe as you suggested with 24x24 size) or create it from scratch (then we need to think about the icon representation). The new set should have high contrast between inherited/overridden state. Thanks Alex :) Caty
Alex
On 06/04/2010 06:54 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
Hi,
Take a look at Rights 5 http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights5Space
Added: * information regarding the advanced rights (inherits, overrides) * icons built together as a whole
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ic...
* representation of "advanced rights" with the same abstract icon, but with different color (no text; we can debate this)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/co...
* inheritance arrow married with +/-
IMGs (in case of browser problem) - collapsed:
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri...
- expanded:
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri...
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:42, Denis Gervalle <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caty,
On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 18:09, Ecaterina Valica <[email protected]>
wrote:
Hi Denis,
I want to thank you again for all the help you are giving :P
This is pleasure to participate especially because you provide really
good
proposals. I would also like to see others participating, currently the discussion is becoming to much bilateral IMO.
Please take a look at a proposal for "V3 and my 3)" version with
elements
from Rights2 :)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal
and in "action" http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Space
Really nice job ! I really appreciate.
The prototype is not reflecting the "desired" interaction: both inherited info and rights change appear on hover (right icon and arrow), instead of hover | click.
I am not sure what are really your intend. I think that the big tooltips describing the rights should be the only tooltips, and should be show on hover only after a small timeout (like the yellow one currently). Clicking any where on the +/- icon or v would then open the menu. Is it what you try ?
yes, on hover show the tooltip, on click show the menu.
<snip> _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Hello all, I really like the last proposal, Caty :) On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Alex Busenius <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caty,
This version is really cool, just some minor comments:
When I mouse over some right icon (FF 3.6), the dropdown menu with allow/deny/etc. is shown, but this menu is very hard to see, because it has almost the same color as the background and the icons are right above the right icons from the line below.
The popup with the hint what right it is and why it is inherited is really helpful, but to open it I need to hit the small triangle near to the icon, otherwise only the dropdown menu is shown (but maybe its just because it is not the final version). This might be quite hard for some people.
I'd made the icons larger (at least 24x24) and add more contrast (right now inherited rights look like disabled GUI controls to me), especially to the dropdown menu, view right icon and inherited right arrow from the menu.
I think that the tooltip can be added on mouse click. This would imply adding a nice question mark instead of that small arrow, and the user would click anywhere on the span with the class name "summary". And another improvement would be to add more padding to the drop down menus. Caty is currently using the secondary background color, right? Maybe we should use the highlight color, but I'm not sure of that. Raluca.
Alex
On 06/04/2010 06:54 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
Hi,
Take a look at Rights 5 http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights5Space
Added: * information regarding the advanced rights (inherits, overrides) * icons built together as a whole http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ic... * representation of "advanced rights" with the same abstract icon, but with different color (no text; we can debate this) http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/co... * inheritance arrow married with +/-
IMGs (in case of browser problem) - collapsed: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri... - expanded: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri...
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:42, Denis Gervalle <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caty,
On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 18:09, Ecaterina Valica <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Denis,
I want to thank you again for all the help you are giving :P
This is pleasure to participate especially because you provide really good proposals. I would also like to see others participating, currently the discussion is becoming to much bilateral IMO.
Please take a look at a proposal for "V3 and my 3)" version with elements from Rights2 :)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal
and in "action" http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Space
Really nice job ! I really appreciate.
The prototype is not reflecting the "desired" interaction: both inherited info and rights change appear on hover (right icon and arrow), instead of hover | click.
I am not sure what are really your intend. I think that the big tooltips describing the rights should be the only tooltips, and should be show on hover only after a small timeout (like the yellow one currently). Clicking any where on the +/- icon or v would then open the menu. Is it what you try ?
yes, on hover show the tooltip, on click show the menu.
<snip> _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 9:23 PM, Ecaterina Valica <[email protected]> wrote:
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 20:57, Alex Busenius <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caty,
This version is really cool, just some minor comments:
When I mouse over some right icon (FF 3.6), the dropdown menu with allow/deny/etc. is shown, but this menu is very hard to see, because it has almost the same color as the background and the icons are right above the right icons from the line below.
The popup with the hint what right it is and why it is inherited is really helpful, but to open it I need to hit the small triangle near to the icon, otherwise only the dropdown menu is shown (but maybe its just because it is not the final version). This might be quite hard for some people.
Hi Alex,
yes I know - I reused existing classes from XWiki, didn't made anything custom, that's why is acting like this.
The "desired" interaction will be on hover (icon or arrow) show the inheritance tooltip, on click show the menu.
If so, I think that the tooltip will be kind of annoying. But we should first see it in action, maybe I'll find some time to work on this. Raluca.
I'd made the icons larger (at least 24x24) and add more contrast (right now inherited rights look like disabled GUI controls to me), especially to the dropdown menu, view right icon and inherited right arrow from the menu.
The main disadvantage of this proposal is it's contrast: ColorThemes variables (highlightColor, secondaryBackgroundColor) and icons.
I choose the icons form Silk set, because they are used everywhere in XWiki. The rationale was the consistency and look&feel. That's why they all are 16x16.
If we choose this version as the final one, but we are not pleased with these icons, we need to find another set (maybe as you suggested with 24x24 size) or create it from scratch (then we need to think about the icon representation).
The new set should have high contrast between inherited/overridden state.
Thanks Alex :) Caty
Alex
On 06/04/2010 06:54 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
Hi,
Take a look at Rights 5 http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights5Space
Added: * information regarding the advanced rights (inherits, overrides) * icons built together as a whole
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ic...
* representation of "advanced rights" with the same abstract icon, but with different color (no text; we can debate this)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/co...
* inheritance arrow married with +/-
IMGs (in case of browser problem) - collapsed:
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri...
- expanded:
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri...
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:42, Denis Gervalle <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caty,
On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 18:09, Ecaterina Valica <[email protected]>
wrote:
Hi Denis,
I want to thank you again for all the help you are giving :P
This is pleasure to participate especially because you provide really
good
proposals. I would also like to see others participating, currently the discussion is becoming to much bilateral IMO.
Please take a look at a proposal for "V3 and my 3)" version with
elements
from Rights2 :)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal
and in "action" http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Space
Really nice job ! I really appreciate.
The prototype is not reflecting the "desired" interaction: both inherited info and rights change appear on hover (right icon and arrow), instead of hover | click.
I am not sure what are really your intend. I think that the big tooltips describing the rights should be the only tooltips, and should be show on hover only after a small timeout (like the yellow one currently). Clicking any where on the +/- icon or v would then open the menu. Is it what you try ?
yes, on hover show the tooltip, on click show the menu.
<snip> _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Hi Caty, On 06/04/2010 08:23 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 20:57, Alex Busenius <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caty,
This version is really cool, just some minor comments:
When I mouse over some right icon (FF 3.6), the dropdown menu with allow/deny/etc. is shown, but this menu is very hard to see, because it has almost the same color as the background and the icons are right above the right icons from the line below.
The popup with the hint what right it is and why it is inherited is really helpful, but to open it I need to hit the small triangle near to the icon, otherwise only the dropdown menu is shown (but maybe its just because it is not the final version). This might be quite hard for some people.
Hi Alex,
yes I know - I reused existing classes from XWiki, didn't made anything custom, that's why is acting like this.
The "desired" interaction will be on hover (icon or arrow) show the inheritance tooltip, on click show the menu.
Ok, that will be indeed much better.
I'd made the icons larger (at least 24x24) and add more contrast (right now inherited rights look like disabled GUI controls to me), especially to the dropdown menu, view right icon and inherited right arrow from the menu.
The main disadvantage of this proposal is it's contrast: ColorThemes variables (highlightColor, secondaryBackgroundColor) and icons.
I choose the icons form Silk set, because they are used everywhere in XWiki. The rationale was the consistency and look&feel. That's why they all are 16x16.
If we choose this version as the final one, but we are not pleased with these icons, we need to find another set (maybe as you suggested with 24x24 size) or create it from scratch (then we need to think about the icon representation).
The new set should have high contrast between inherited/overridden state.
I see, this complicates things, but I would really prefer larger icons, lets see what others say... How about adding a dark border to the dropdown menu or changing its color to the same one used for "Export" menu etc.? If the icons are not transparent (in the middle), this would also improve the contrast a lot. Alex
Thanks Alex :) Caty
Alex
On 06/04/2010 06:54 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
Hi,
Take a look at Rights 5 http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights5Space
Added: * information regarding the advanced rights (inherits, overrides) * icons built together as a whole
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ic...
* representation of "advanced rights" with the same abstract icon, but with different color (no text; we can debate this)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/co...
* inheritance arrow married with +/-
IMGs (in case of browser problem) - collapsed:
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri...
- expanded:
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri...
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:42, Denis Gervalle <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caty,
On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 18:09, Ecaterina Valica <[email protected]>
wrote:
Hi Denis,
I want to thank you again for all the help you are giving :P
This is pleasure to participate especially because you provide really
good
proposals. I would also like to see others participating, currently the discussion is becoming to much bilateral IMO.
Please take a look at a proposal for "V3 and my 3)" version with
elements
from Rights2 :)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal
and in "action" http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Space
Really nice job ! I really appreciate.
The prototype is not reflecting the "desired" interaction: both inherited info and rights change appear on hover (right icon and arrow), instead of hover | click.
I am not sure what are really your intend. I think that the big tooltips describing the rights should be the only tooltips, and should be show on hover only after a small timeout (like the yellow one currently). Clicking any where on the +/- icon or v would then open the menu. Is it what you try ?
yes, on hover show the tooltip, on click show the menu.
<snip> _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Hi Caty, I am glad to see that others are looking at what we do, and it is good time for them to comment now, since I will not have many more comments now :) I have replied to some of your comment below... On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 18:54, Ecaterina Valica <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi,
Take a look at Rights 5 http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights5Space
Added: * information regarding the advanced rights (inherits, overrides) * icons built together as a whole
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ic... * representation of "advanced rights" with the same abstract icon, but with different color (no text; we can debate this)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/co... * inheritance arrow married with +/-
IMGs (in case of browser problem) - collapsed:
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri... - expanded:
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri...
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:42, Denis Gervalle <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caty,
On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 18:09, Ecaterina Valica <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Denis,
I want to thank you again for all the help you are giving :P
This is pleasure to participate especially because you provide really good proposals. I would also like to see others participating, currently the discussion is becoming to much bilateral IMO.
Please take a look at a proposal for "V3 and my 3)" version with
elements
from Rights2 :)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal
and in "action" http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Space
Really nice job ! I really appreciate.
The prototype is not reflecting the "desired" interaction: both inherited info and rights change appear on hover (right icon and arrow), instead of hover | click.
I am not sure what are really your intend. I think that the big tooltips describing the rights should be the only tooltips, and should be show on hover only after a small timeout (like the yellow one currently). Clicking any where on the +/- icon or v would then open the menu. Is it what you try ?
yes, on hover show the tooltip, on click show the menu.
This is perfect, but you should include a little timeout for the tooltips, or it will be too much invasive.
From the reaction of Alex and Raluca, I really hope you will be able to implement the correct interaction in your samples, since this seems to cause a lot of confusion. If you can't, let me know, I will try to find some time to have a look at it.
That "v" needs to be an arrow like the one we use in the action menus.
On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 19:06, Denis Gervalle <[email protected]> wrote:
Caty,
Really nice and interesting post, I will try to reach that level...
but
without visual :\
I really think that using the collapsed view for editing would helps basic users to have a simplified and more easy interface to understand. We may even imagine that only "advanced user" (those marked so in their profile), has access to the expanded view.
I think that the collapsed view missed an additional icon that summarize the rights that are not shown. This one would only be shown if there is any non-defaulted additional right in action.
This is a signal that extended
rights are in use (See it like the grey box of Windows when special rights are setup, which is inviting to go into advanced view to know more). This one would be obviously not editable, and should probably work like the ... or replace it ? In place of the ... . Concerning the ..., I am not sure, but I would also prefer to see a textual link "advanced" in small font, and only visible when row is hovered.
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal#HR...
Sorry to insist, but the information regarding the advanced rights is
still
missing in collapsed mode. I really would like to have a indicator that some advanced rights has been set locally or not without having to go advanced mode. Else, you will have to expand all rows to check that information, which is not practical.
Order of right are not significant, so I would prefer that in all
view,
these where in the same order, with the basic right first (V/C/E/D/A/P) and the additional right in their order of registration (hope that it will stay constant... or we will have to find a way to keep them ordered). The "right" part of each icon should be grayed if the right is inherited and not grayed if the right is set locally, this improve the information provided in V3.
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal#HA...
The problem with this icons (taken from Silk) is that there is little difference for View, Comment, Admin icons between the two states (inherited, locally set) - but this is something we can easily improve (by changing
the
icons and looking for some more contrast). Example: This is how they look when all rights are set locally (full color)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights43Proposa...
I also think that the +/- (which is never grayed) could be nearer to the right icon. Maybe you could use a green V and a read
"stop"
in place of +/- ?
The other mockup versions (like http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights41Space ) used v/x for the allow/deny representation, and yes, I agree that they are more suited than +/-.
The problem is that we are using in XWiki, X to represent delete, so having two xX was too much, that's why I introduced +/-. Maybe we can find another solution.
I think we need some polishing on the icons used. Building them specifically would be nice, but I do not know if you or anyone want to have a try at that. My feeling is that the couple +/- or better v/x and the right icon should be built together and closer to each other providing the information as a whole and not giving the impression of two part. Using a v for suggesting the menu is nice, could be even improved by styling some "button like" borders on hover.
All menus could also be improved by using the inheritance arrow married with +/- (or v/x) to show immediately what will be the right if inheritance is used.
Regarding the collapsed view, I see three possibilities to
investigate
for
allowing edition while improving readability (note that readability has the same issue in expanded view, but it seems to be less annoying) :
1) use V3, but when hovering a row, use V2 on that row and allow drag/drop (keeping V2 until drop even is hover is temporary lost). Not sure this will be nice in practice ? see 2)
2) use a presentation in 4 columns, for both collapsed and expanded view, the first column behing a read-only summary like V3, and the 3 column being an ordered V1. However, dragging from summary would be allowed. The 3 detailed column could be shown only when a drag is started from summary, or with a global horizontal expansion button... Basic user would have access to this, but not necessarily to vertical row expansion. Not sure this is not an increase in complexity ? so, see 3)
3) use V3, and a similar interface to what we have in current right management interface. Since saved are postponed (not like we have currently), using this one may be both practical and could helps the transition for existing user as well. With all the belts and whistle added to clearly state changes and inheritance, this will be similar but really better than what we have.
If we go for V3 and my 3) proposal, I also wonder if the current table header is well done. I do not like it when nothing is expanded since it is confusing, too large, and not significant. It will be even more unexpected if you follow me on the "advance user" case, when a basic user look at it. Maybe you could try a changing header, only expanding when there is expanded row, or, you could move the expanded header in each expanded row, keeping a simplified header at the top.
WDYT ?
Denis
Other problem that this proposal has is the representation of "advanced rights". If we don't like the textual description and we want to add icons, IMO we have two solutions:
A) use the same abstract icon, but with different color, ex. a key or lock icon with color representation ("blue" for "programming", "green" for "captchaComment", etc) - the problem here is for the people that have some kind color blindness and will not distinguish between some color tones (this is the case when we gonna have lots of "advanced" | non default rights)
B) use the same abstract icon and with an order index (like numbers 1, 2, etc or characters A, B, etc)
These representations are based on the fact that "advanced rights" will be added by other developers and the icon will not be custom made for a specif right.
Why not just use the big Icons from the menu (using the inheritance arrow married with +/- as proposed above), and directly followed by the v arrow. All this in front of the text ?
inheritance arrow + "right" - to describe "right" as inherited allowed inheritance arrow - "right" - to describe "right" as inherited denied + "right" - to describe "right" allowed - "right" - to describe "right" denied
yes - we could do that if we decide to use the textual variant.
Personally I would prefer the text variant. If not, I do not see the point to expand vertically, just put all on a single row.
Using a generic icon will not improve information and detailed view of advanced right in collapsed mode is not expected.
It is not clearly shown on your samples, how multiple advance right would be shown. I think one per row is nice, or if you want to limit space, 2 or 3 at most, shown in columns ?
this depends on which version (textual, icons) we choose for the advanced rights (I would prefer something linear)
I do not agree, I see basic as an horizontal presentation and advance to be a vertical more detailed variant. Maybe the inheritance information from the tootips could be put in a second column when displaying advanced mode.
I also wonder is this would help or not to also extends basic rights in advanced mode, showing the icons and the text ?
I think this would only add duplicates and mess a bit the meaning of "advanced" by combining them with "regular".
No, I would just remove the basic view in favor of a advance one, so there is no duplication, just a more detailed view of the same information.
Another thing we need to consider for this proposal is how the
filtering is
gonna be made.
Good point. Here is some proposal for each column:
1) a dropdown list proposing local (default), global or both ?
I would prefer rights separation depending on the location: - if you want to see global rights - go to global; - if you want to see wiki rights - go to wiki, etc.
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights3Proposal#HNa...
Why would you like to see both local and global? (filtering?) I think it will be easier for the user if they are separated.
This is not global in term of right, it is about showing local user/group or global user/group. In a farm, the user xwiki:XWiki.Admin may receive special right on mywiki:MySpace.MyPage. So, the filtering would be to filter which user are shown. This is exactly what the current interface do. Hiding global user by default is done so because knowing about global user is an advanced usage that basic users ignore. So, once again, this has nothing to do with the inheritance of rigths, but about the origin of the user. And the first column is about user/group, so it coud fit that need.
2) a textbox which filter on names
For advanced users would be nice to have queries, like "allow view" AND "inherit deny delete" :)
I was filtering on user/group name here, since second columns is about user/group names and does not relate to rights.
3) a dropdown list proposing all (default), hide inherited only, and maybe the list of rights, showing only rows where the selected right is set locally ?
The dropdown with the list of rights (view, edit, etc.) could also have another dropdown next to it to set the state of the right (inherited, allowed, denied)
Why not, this should be tried to see what it provide. I am not sure this will be used often, since rights regarding a given level are usually not so complex that you are unable to read them all. I have seen interesting to hide inherited only rows, because these are not show currently in the interface, and this could be useful to revert to current view, especially for user that has already used this interface. I hope this is clearer. I really hope that we will now receive more feedback... and that we will be able to implement this in the near future on top of the new implementation of the right service from Andreas. Anyway,congratulation for this great piece of work. Denis
Thanks, Caty _______________________________________________ users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
-- Denis Gervalle SOFTEC sa - CEO eGuilde sarl - CTO
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 21:33, Raluca Stavro <[email protected]>wrote:
Hello all,
I really like the last proposal, Caty :)
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Alex Busenius <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caty,
This version is really cool, just some minor comments:
When I mouse over some right icon (FF 3.6), the dropdown menu with allow/deny/etc. is shown, but this menu is very hard to see, because it has almost the same color as the background and the icons are right above the right icons from the line below.
The popup with the hint what right it is and why it is inherited is really helpful, but to open it I need to hit the small triangle near to the icon, otherwise only the dropdown menu is shown (but maybe its just because it is not the final version). This might be quite hard for some people.
I'd made the icons larger (at least 24x24) and add more contrast (right now inherited rights look like disabled GUI controls to me), especially to the dropdown menu, view right icon and inherited right arrow from the menu.
I think that the tooltip can be added on mouse click. This would imply adding a nice question mark instead of that small arrow, and the user would click anywhere on the span with the class name "summary". And another improvement would be to add more padding to the drop down menus. Caty is currently using the secondary background color, right? Maybe we should use the highlight color, but I'm not sure of that.
Thanks Raluca. Yes, a better solution is be to increase the padding and also use $theme.backgroundSecondaryColor (or a darker tone). The problem is that on default theme, backgroundSecondaryColor is a gray color and the contrast with the gray icon is not that good. In terms of interaction I think "hover on tooltip" and "click on arrow" for changing the rights is better. The user browse the rights to see the inheritance and see what those rights means, and when he made up his mind he clicks and change the right. There are more cases when the users is just browsing the rights, inspecting or see rights meaning, than actually change them; so the harder activity (clicking) should be put on changing the right. The small arrow is a sign that there is a menu. If the menu will appear on click, the arrow is necessary to work as an invitation and also to keep the consistency with actionMenus. Raluca, do you think we should use bigger icons, like Alex suggested? Maybe if we put enough padding and we work a bit on the contrast (backgroundSecondaryColor, highlightColor) this won't be necessary. The only advantage of another color set would be a greater space for user to click/hover (we can fix that with padding). The disadvantage is that the look&feel will be broken and also other icons will not correlate actions done in XWiki (edit, delete, comment, etc) with the corresponding rights. If the hover/click and the size of the icons are the only problem :) then is ok Thanks, Caty
Raluca.
Alex
On 06/04/2010 06:54 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
Hi,
Take a look at Rights 5 http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights5Space
Added: * information regarding the advanced rights (inherits, overrides) * icons built together as a whole
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ic...
* representation of "advanced rights" with the same abstract icon, but with different color (no text; we can debate this)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/co...
* inheritance arrow married with +/-
IMGs (in case of browser problem) - collapsed:
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri...
- expanded:
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri...
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:42, Denis Gervalle <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caty,
On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 18:09, Ecaterina Valica <[email protected]>
wrote:
Hi Denis,
I want to thank you again for all the help you are giving :P
This is pleasure to participate especially because you provide really
good
proposals. I would also like to see others participating, currently the discussion is becoming to much bilateral IMO.
Please take a look at a proposal for "V3 and my 3)" version with
elements
from Rights2 :)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal
and in "action"
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Space
Really nice job ! I really appreciate.
The prototype is not reflecting the "desired" interaction: both inherited info and rights change appear on hover (right icon and arrow), instead of hover | click.
I am not sure what are really your intend. I think that the big tooltips describing the rights should be the only tooltips, and should be show on hover only after a small timeout (like the yellow one currently). Clicking any where on the +/- icon or v would then open the menu. Is it what you try ?
yes, on hover show the tooltip, on click show the menu.
<snip> _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 01:53, Denis Gervalle <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caty,
I am glad to see that others are looking at what we do, and it is good time for them to comment now, since I will not have many more comments now :) I have replied to some of your comment below...
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 18:54, Ecaterina Valica <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi,
Take a look at Rights 5 http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights5Space
Added: * information regarding the advanced rights (inherits, overrides) * icons built together as a whole
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ic...
* representation of "advanced rights" with the same abstract icon, but with different color (no text; we can debate this)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/co...
* inheritance arrow married with +/-
IMGs (in case of browser problem) - collapsed:
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri...
- expanded:
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri...
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:42, Denis Gervalle <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caty,
On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 18:09, Ecaterina Valica <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Denis,
I want to thank you again for all the help you are giving :P
This is pleasure to participate especially because you provide really good proposals. I would also like to see others participating, currently the discussion is becoming to much bilateral IMO.
Please take a look at a proposal for "V3 and my 3)" version with
elements
from Rights2 :)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal
and in "action"
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Space
Really nice job ! I really appreciate.
The prototype is not reflecting the "desired" interaction: both inherited info and rights change appear on hover (right icon and arrow), instead of hover | click.
I am not sure what are really your intend. I think that the big tooltips describing the rights should be the only tooltips, and should be show on hover only after a small timeout (like the yellow one currently). Clicking any where on the +/- icon or v would then open the menu. Is it what you try ?
yes, on hover show the tooltip, on click show the menu.
This is perfect, but you should include a little timeout for the tooltips, or it will be too much invasive. From the reaction of Alex and Raluca, I really hope you will be able to implement the correct interaction in your samples, since this seems to cause a lot of confusion. If you can't, let me know, I will try to find some time to have a look at it.
That "v" needs to be an arrow like the one we use in the action
menus.
On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 19:06, Denis Gervalle <[email protected]> wrote:
Caty,
Really nice and interesting post, I will try to reach that level...
but
without visual :\
I really think that using the collapsed view for editing would helps basic users to have a simplified and more easy interface to understand. We may even imagine that only "advanced user" (those marked so in their profile), has access to the expanded view.
I think that the collapsed view missed an additional icon that summarize the rights that are not shown. This one would only be shown if there is any non-defaulted additional right in action.
This is a signal that extended
rights are in use (See it like the grey box of Windows when special rights are setup, which is inviting to go into advanced view to know more). This one would be obviously not editable, and should probably work like the ... or replace it ? In place of the ... . Concerning the ..., I am not sure, but I would also prefer to see a textual link "advanced" in small font, and only visible when row is hovered.
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal#HR...
Sorry to insist, but the information regarding the advanced rights is
still
missing in collapsed mode. I really would like to have a indicator that some advanced rights has been set locally or not without having to go advanced mode. Else, you will have to expand all rows to check that information, which is not practical.
Order of right are not significant, so I would prefer that in all
view,
these where in the same order, with the basic right first (V/C/E/D/A/P) and the additional right in their order of registration (hope that it will stay constant... or we will have to find a way to keep them ordered). The "right" part of each icon should be grayed if the right is inherited and not grayed if the right is set locally, this improve the information provided in V3.
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal#HA...
The problem with this icons (taken from Silk) is that there is little difference for View, Comment, Admin icons between the two states (inherited, locally set) - but this is something we can easily improve (by
changing the
icons and looking for some more contrast). Example: This is how they look when all rights are set locally (full color)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights43Proposa...
I also think that the +/- (which is never grayed) could be nearer to the right icon. Maybe you could use a green V and a read
"stop"
in place of +/- ?
The other mockup versions (like
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights41Space )
used v/x for the allow/deny representation, and yes, I agree that they are more suited than +/-.
The problem is that we are using in XWiki, X to represent delete, so having two xX was too much, that's why I introduced +/-. Maybe we can find another solution.
I think we need some polishing on the icons used. Building them specifically would be nice, but I do not know if you or anyone want to have a try at that. My feeling is that the couple +/- or better v/x and the right icon should be built together and closer to each other providing the information as a whole and not giving the impression of two part. Using a v for suggesting the menu is nice, could be even improved by styling some "button like" borders on hover.
All menus could also be improved by using the inheritance arrow married with +/- (or v/x) to show immediately what will be the right if inheritance is used.
Regarding the collapsed view, I see three possibilities to
investigate
for
allowing edition while improving readability (note that readability has the same issue in expanded view, but it seems to be less annoying) :
1) use V3, but when hovering a row, use V2 on that row and allow drag/drop (keeping V2 until drop even is hover is temporary lost). Not sure this will be nice in practice ? see 2)
2) use a presentation in 4 columns, for both collapsed and expanded view, the first column behing a read-only summary like V3, and the 3 column being an ordered V1. However, dragging from summary would be allowed. The 3 detailed column could be shown only when a drag is started from summary, or with a global horizontal expansion button... Basic user would have access to this, but not necessarily to vertical row expansion. Not sure this is not an increase in complexity ? so, see 3)
3) use V3, and a similar interface to what we have in current right management interface. Since saved are postponed (not like we have currently), using this one may be both practical and could helps the transition for existing user as well. With all the belts and whistle added to clearly state changes and inheritance, this will be similar but really better than what we have.
If we go for V3 and my 3) proposal, I also wonder if the current table header is well done. I do not like it when nothing is expanded since it is confusing, too large, and not significant. It will be even more unexpected if you follow me on the "advance user" case, when a basic user look at it. Maybe you could try a changing header, only expanding when there is expanded row, or, you could move the expanded header in each expanded row, keeping a simplified header at the top.
WDYT ?
Denis
Other problem that this proposal has is the representation of "advanced rights". If we don't like the textual description and we want to add icons, IMO we have two solutions:
A) use the same abstract icon, but with different color, ex. a key or lock icon with color representation ("blue" for "programming", "green" for "captchaComment", etc) - the problem here is for the people that have some kind color blindness and will not distinguish between some color tones (this is the case when we gonna have lots of "advanced" | non default rights)
B) use the same abstract icon and with an order index (like numbers 1, 2, etc or characters A, B, etc)
These representations are based on the fact that "advanced rights" will be added by other developers and the icon will not be custom made for a specif right.
Why not just use the big Icons from the menu (using the inheritance arrow married with +/- as proposed above), and directly followed by the v arrow. All this in front of the text ?
inheritance arrow + "right" - to describe "right" as inherited allowed inheritance arrow - "right" - to describe "right" as inherited denied + "right" - to describe "right" allowed - "right" - to describe "right" denied
yes - we could do that if we decide to use the textual variant.
Personally I would prefer the text variant. If not, I do not see the point to expand vertically, just put all on a single row.
The reason they are put on two rows is the one you gave me: "helps basic users to have a simplified and more easy interface to understand. We may even imagine that only 'advanced user' (those marked so in their profile), has access to the expanded view. " If we are gonna add rights per application, then we will have a separation between the "basic rights" and the "extended/advanced rights". The "basic rights" are the ones that any admin should know about and that cover the most important functions of the wiki. "Extended rights" could be easy ignored by admins (especially beginners admins), that can rely on their default status. If we put all the rights on the same row, we are giving them the same importance and the admins will feel the need to learn and set them all. IMO, programming will fit in the "extended rights" section. Also, if we are using icons, I prefer all rights should be represented with icons because of the consistency. There is no need to have two representations for elements that do the same thing (if all are rights than they should all act like it, look like it, etc)
Using a generic icon will not improve information and detailed view of advanced right in collapsed mode is not expected.
It is not clearly shown on your samples, how multiple advance right
would
be shown. I think one per row is nice, or if you want to limit space, 2 or 3 at most, shown in columns ?
this depends on which version (textual, icons) we choose for the advanced rights (I would prefer something linear)
I do not agree, I see basic as an horizontal presentation and advance to be a vertical more detailed variant. Maybe the inheritance information from the tootips could be put in a second column when displaying advanced mode.
With what information the right represented in the collapsed mode will be more detailed than in the expanded one? By having the name written explicit in text? This is not enough and when you have icons that are use elsewhere in the wiki, the user learns the meaning and doesn't need the textual info so bad. What you are telling me is like the version 4.2, when the collapse mode was just a summary of the expanded mode. But when we moved in the collapse mode the functionality (changing the right/drag), then the collapsed mode began to represent the interface and not the summary any more. That's why I removed the duplicates from the expanded mode. There is no use to put the same actions/info twice. This only will overload the interface and will bring few/to none improvements.
I also wonder is this would help or not to also extends basic rights in advanced mode, showing the icons and the text ?
I think this would only add duplicates and mess a bit the meaning of "advanced" by combining them with "regular".
No, I would just remove the basic view in favor of a advance one, so there is no duplication, just a more detailed view of the same information.
Another thing we need to consider for this proposal is how the
filtering is
gonna be made.
Good point. Here is some proposal for each column:
1) a dropdown list proposing local (default), global or both ?
I would prefer rights separation depending on the location: - if you want to see global rights - go to global; - if you want to see wiki rights - go to wiki, etc.
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights3Proposal#HNa...
Why would you like to see both local and global? (filtering?) I think it will be easier for the user if they are separated.
This is not global in term of right, it is about showing local user/group or global user/group. In a farm, the user xwiki:XWiki.Admin may receive special right on mywiki:MySpace.MyPage. So, the filtering would be to filter which user are shown. This is exactly what the current interface do. Hiding global user by default is done so because knowing about global user is an advanced usage that basic users ignore. So, once again, this has nothing to do with the inheritance of rigths, but about the origin of the user. And the first column is about user/group, so it coud fit that need.
k. Thanks for explaining that. It will be added to the display of filters.
2) a textbox which filter on names
For advanced users would be nice to have queries, like "allow view" AND "inherit deny delete" :)
I was filtering on user/group name here, since second columns is about user/group names and does not relate to rights.
3) a dropdown list proposing all (default), hide inherited only, and maybe the list of rights, showing only rows where the selected right is set locally ?
The dropdown with the list of rights (view, edit, etc.) could also have another dropdown next to it to set the state of the right (inherited, allowed, denied)
Why not, this should be tried to see what it provide. I am not sure this will be used often, since rights regarding a given level are usually not so complex that you are unable to read them all. I have seen interesting to hide inherited only rows, because these are not show currently in the interface, and this could be useful to revert to current view, especially for user that has already used this interface.
I'll do a filter representation to see how is gonna look like.
I hope this is clearer. I really hope that we will now receive more feedback... and that we will be able to implement this in the near future on top of the new implementation of the right service from Andreas.
Anyway,congratulation for this great piece of work.
Thanks Denis again for all the input, Caty
Denis
Thanks, Caty _______________________________________________ users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
-- Denis Gervalle SOFTEC sa - CEO eGuilde sarl - CTO _______________________________________________ users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 10:50, Ecaterina Valica <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 01:53, Denis Gervalle <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caty,
I am glad to see that others are looking at what we do, and it is good time for them to comment now, since I will not have many more comments now :) I have replied to some of your comment below...
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 18:54, Ecaterina Valica <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi,
Take a look at Rights 5 http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights5Space
Added: * information regarding the advanced rights (inherits, overrides) * icons built together as a whole
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ic...
* representation of "advanced rights" with the same abstract icon, but with different color (no text; we can debate this)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/co...
* inheritance arrow married with +/-
IMGs (in case of browser problem) - collapsed:
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri...
- expanded:
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri...
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:42, Denis Gervalle <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caty,
On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 18:09, Ecaterina Valica <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Denis,
I want to thank you again for all the help you are giving :P
This is pleasure to participate especially because you provide really good proposals. I would also like to see others participating, currently the
discussion
is
becoming to much bilateral IMO.
Please take a look at a proposal for "V3 and my 3)" version with
elements
from Rights2 :)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal
and in "action"
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Space
Really nice job ! I really appreciate.
The prototype is not reflecting the "desired" interaction: both inherited info and rights change appear on hover (right icon and arrow), instead of hover | click.
I am not sure what are really your intend. I think that the big tooltips describing the rights should be the only tooltips, and should be show on hover only after a small timeout (like the yellow one currently). Clicking any where on the +/- icon or v would then open the menu. Is it what you try ?
yes, on hover show the tooltip, on click show the menu.
This is perfect, but you should include a little timeout for the tooltips, or it will be too much invasive. From the reaction of Alex and Raluca, I really hope you will be able to implement the correct interaction in your samples, since this seems to cause a lot of confusion. If you can't, let me know, I will try to find some time to have a look at it.
That "v" needs to be an arrow like the one we use in the action
menus.
On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 19:06, Denis Gervalle <[email protected]>
wrote:
Caty,
Really nice and interesting post, I will try to reach that
level... but
without visual :\
I really think that using the collapsed view for editing would helps basic users to have a simplified and more easy interface to understand. We may even imagine that only "advanced user" (those marked so in their profile), has access to the expanded view.
I think that the collapsed view missed an additional icon that summarize the rights that are not shown. This one would only be shown if there is any non-defaulted additional right in action.
This is a signal that extended
rights are in use (See it like the grey box of Windows when special rights are setup, which is inviting to go into advanced view to know more). This one would be obviously not editable, and should probably work like the ... or replace it ? In place of the ... . Concerning the ..., I am not sure, but I would also prefer to see a textual link "advanced" in small font, and only visible when row is hovered.
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal#HR...
Sorry to insist, but the information regarding the advanced rights is
still
missing in collapsed mode. I really would like to have a indicator that some advanced rights has been set locally or not without having to go advanced mode. Else, you will have to expand all rows to check that information, which is not practical.
Order of right are not significant, so I would prefer that in all
view,
these where in the same order, with the basic right first (V/C/E/D/A/P) and the additional right in their order of registration (hope that it will stay constant... or we will have to find a way to keep them ordered). The "right" part of each icon should be grayed if the right is inherited and not grayed if the right is set locally, this improve the information provided in V3.
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal#HA...
The problem with this icons (taken from Silk) is that there is
little
difference for View, Comment, Admin icons between the two states (inherited, locally set) - but this is something we can easily improve (by changing the icons and looking for some more contrast). Example: This is how they look when all rights are set locally (full color)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights43Proposa...
I also think that the +/- (which is never grayed) could be nearer to the right icon. Maybe you could use a green V and a
read "stop"
in place of +/- ?
The other mockup versions (like
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights41Space )
used v/x for the allow/deny representation, and yes, I agree that they are more suited than +/-.
The problem is that we are using in XWiki, X to represent delete, so having two xX was too much, that's why I introduced +/-. Maybe we can find another solution.
I think we need some polishing on the icons used. Building them specifically would be nice, but I do not know if you or anyone want to have a try at that. My feeling is that the couple +/- or better v/x and the right icon should be built together and closer to each other providing the information as a whole and not giving the impression of two part. Using a v for suggesting the menu is nice, could be even improved by styling some "button like" borders on hover.
All menus could also be improved by using the inheritance arrow married with +/- (or v/x) to show immediately what will be the right if inheritance is used.
Regarding the collapsed view, I see three possibilities to
investigate
for
allowing edition while improving readability (note that readability has the same issue in expanded view, but it seems to be less annoying) :
1) use V3, but when hovering a row, use V2 on that row and allow drag/drop (keeping V2 until drop even is hover is temporary lost). Not sure this will be nice in practice ? see 2)
2) use a presentation in 4 columns, for both collapsed and expanded view, the first column behing a read-only summary like V3, and the 3 column being an ordered V1. However, dragging from summary would be allowed. The 3 detailed column could be shown only when a drag is started from summary, or with a global horizontal expansion button... Basic user would have access to this, but not necessarily to vertical row expansion. Not sure this is not an increase in complexity ? so, see 3)
3) use V3, and a similar interface to what we have in current right management interface. Since saved are postponed (not like we have currently), using this one may be both practical and could helps the transition for existing user as well. With all the belts and whistle added to clearly state changes and inheritance, this will be similar but really better than what we have.
If we go for V3 and my 3) proposal, I also wonder if the current table header is well done. I do not like it when nothing is expanded since it is confusing, too large, and not significant. It will be even more unexpected if you follow me on the "advance user" case, when a basic user look at it. Maybe you could try a changing header, only expanding when there is expanded row, or, you could move the expanded header in each expanded row, keeping a simplified header at the top.
WDYT ?
Denis
Other problem that this proposal has is the representation of "advanced rights". If we don't like the textual description and we want to add icons, IMO we have two solutions:
A) use the same abstract icon, but with different color, ex. a key or lock icon with color representation ("blue" for "programming", "green" for "captchaComment", etc) - the problem here is for the people that have some kind color blindness and will not distinguish between some color tones (this is the case when we gonna have lots of "advanced" | non default rights)
B) use the same abstract icon and with an order index (like numbers 1, 2, etc or characters A, B, etc)
These representations are based on the fact that "advanced rights" will be added by other developers and the icon will not be custom made for a specif right.
Why not just use the big Icons from the menu (using the inheritance arrow married with +/- as proposed above), and directly followed by the v arrow. All this in front of the text ?
inheritance arrow + "right" - to describe "right" as inherited allowed inheritance arrow - "right" - to describe "right" as inherited denied + "right" - to describe "right" allowed - "right" - to describe "right" denied
yes - we could do that if we decide to use the textual variant.
Personally I would prefer the text variant. If not, I do not see the point to expand vertically, just put all on a single row.
The reason they are put on two rows is the one you gave me: "helps basic users to have a simplified and more easy interface to understand. We may even imagine that only 'advanced user' (those marked so in their profile), has access to the expanded view.
If we are gonna add rights per application, then we will have a separation between the "basic rights" and the "extended/advanced rights". The "basic rights" are the ones that any admin should know about and that cover the most important functions of the wiki. "Extended rights" could be easy ignored by admins (especially beginners admins), that can rely on their default status. If we put all the rights on the same row, we are giving them the same importance and the admins will feel the need to learn and set them all. IMO, programming will fit in the "extended rights" section.
Also, if we are using icons, I prefer all rights should be represented with icons because of the consistency. There is no need to have two representations for elements that do the same thing (if all are rights than they should all act like it, look like it, etc)
I am afraid that advanced right will be difficult to iconize clearly. Moreover, once the set of items became large, icons are not an easy way to recognize each item, so using text will helps more than keeping consistency.
Using a generic icon will not improve information and detailed view
of
advanced right in collapsed mode is not expected.
It is not clearly shown on your samples, how multiple advance right would be shown. I think one per row is nice, or if you want to limit space, 2 or 3 at most, shown in columns ?
this depends on which version (textual, icons) we choose for the advanced rights (I would prefer something linear)
I do not agree, I see basic as an horizontal presentation and advance to be a vertical more detailed variant. Maybe the inheritance information from the tootips could be put in a second column when displaying advanced mode.
With what information the right represented in the collapsed mode will be more detailed than in the expanded one? By having the name written explicit
By putting the information in the tooltip regarding the origin of inheritance, avoiding the needs to read that information separately for each rights, but having it displayed simultaneously in a column.
in text? This is not enough and when you have icons that are use elsewhere in the wiki, the user learns the meaning and doesn't need the textual info so bad.
What you are telling me is like the version 4.2, when the collapse mode was just a summary of the expanded mode. But when we moved in the collapse mode the functionality (changing the right/drag), then the collapsed mode began to represent the interface and not the summary any more.
As I have said, I see the collapsed mode as a basic interface, and the advanced mode as an advanced interface. Two way to display information, and to interact with it. Basic users will never look at advanced mode which is more for admins. Be careful that setting page right could be a user task, not an admin task. What I have said is that we could even limit access to advanced mode to advanced users, like what we do with the edit menu.
That's why I removed the duplicates from the expanded mode. There is no use to put the same actions/info twice. This only will overload the interface and will bring few/to none improvements.
It will if it display the inheritance source in a column. For right set at current level this column could even precise what inheritance has been overwritten, both in terms of allowance and origin. Denis.
I also wonder is this would help or not to also extends basic rights
in
advanced mode, showing the icons and the text ?
I think this would only add duplicates and mess a bit the meaning of "advanced" by combining them with "regular".
No, I would just remove the basic view in favor of a advance one, so there is no duplication, just a more detailed view of the same information.
Another thing we need to consider for this proposal is how the
filtering is
gonna be made.
Good point. Here is some proposal for each column:
1) a dropdown list proposing local (default), global or both ?
I would prefer rights separation depending on the location: - if you want to see global rights - go to global; - if you want to see wiki rights - go to wiki, etc.
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights3Proposal#HNa...
Why would you like to see both local and global? (filtering?) I think
it
will be easier for the user if they are separated.
This is not global in term of right, it is about showing local user/group or global user/group. In a farm, the user xwiki:XWiki.Admin may receive special right on mywiki:MySpace.MyPage. So, the filtering would be to filter which user are shown. This is exactly what the current interface do. Hiding global user by default is done so because knowing about global user is an advanced usage that basic users ignore. So, once again, this has nothing to do with the inheritance of rigths, but about the origin of the user. And the first column is about user/group, so it coud fit that need.
k. Thanks for explaining that. It will be added to the display of filters.
2) a textbox which filter on names
For advanced users would be nice to have queries, like "allow view" AND "inherit deny delete" :)
I was filtering on user/group name here, since second columns is about user/group names and does not relate to rights.
3) a dropdown list proposing all (default), hide inherited only, and maybe the list of rights, showing only rows where the selected right is set locally ?
The dropdown with the list of rights (view, edit, etc.) could also have another dropdown next to it to set the state of the right (inherited, allowed, denied)
Why not, this should be tried to see what it provide. I am not sure this will be used often, since rights regarding a given level are usually not
so
complex that you are unable to read them all. I have seen interesting to hide inherited only rows, because these are not show currently in the interface, and this could be useful to revert to current view, especially for user that has already used this interface.
I'll do a filter representation to see how is gonna look like.
I hope this is clearer. I really hope that we will now receive more feedback... and that we will be able to implement this in the near future on top of the new implementation of the right service from Andreas.
Anyway,congratulation for this great piece of work.
Thanks Denis again for all the input, Caty
Denis
Thanks, Caty _______________________________________________ users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
-- Denis Gervalle SOFTEC sa - CEO eGuilde sarl - CTO _______________________________________________ users mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Denis Gervalle SOFTEC sa - CEO eGuilde sarl - CTO
It will if it display the inheritance source in a column. For right set at current level this column could even precise what inheritance has been overwritten, both in terms of allowance and origin.
Denis.
Hi Denis, "Something" like this: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights51Space Thanks, Caty
On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Ecaterina Valica <[email protected]> wrote:
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 21:33, Raluca Stavro <[email protected]>wrote:
Hello all,
I really like the last proposal, Caty :)
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Alex Busenius <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caty,
This version is really cool, just some minor comments:
When I mouse over some right icon (FF 3.6), the dropdown menu with allow/deny/etc. is shown, but this menu is very hard to see, because it has almost the same color as the background and the icons are right above the right icons from the line below.
The popup with the hint what right it is and why it is inherited is really helpful, but to open it I need to hit the small triangle near to the icon, otherwise only the dropdown menu is shown (but maybe its just because it is not the final version). This might be quite hard for some people.
I'd made the icons larger (at least 24x24) and add more contrast (right now inherited rights look like disabled GUI controls to me), especially to the dropdown menu, view right icon and inherited right arrow from the menu.
I think that the tooltip can be added on mouse click. This would imply adding a nice question mark instead of that small arrow, and the user would click anywhere on the span with the class name "summary". And another improvement would be to add more padding to the drop down menus. Caty is currently using the secondary background color, right? Maybe we should use the highlight color, but I'm not sure of that.
Thanks Raluca. Yes, a better solution is be to increase the padding and also use $theme.backgroundSecondaryColor (or a darker tone). The problem is that on default theme, backgroundSecondaryColor is a gray color and the contrast with the gray icon is not that good.
In terms of interaction I think "hover on tooltip" and "click on arrow" for changing the rights is better. The user browse the rights to see the inheritance and see what those rights means, and when he made up his mind he clicks and change the right. There are more cases when the users is just browsing the rights, inspecting or see rights meaning, than actually change them; so the harder activity (clicking) should be put on changing the right.
The small arrow is a sign that there is a menu. If the menu will appear on click, the arrow is necessary to work as an invitation and also to keep the consistency with actionMenus.
Raluca, do you think we should use bigger icons, like Alex suggested? Maybe if we put enough padding and we work a bit on the contrast (backgroundSecondaryColor, highlightColor) this won't be necessary.
No, the icon size is ok. I modified a bit proposal 5.1 (I hope it's ok with you Caty, otherwise we can revert the changes and add proposal 5.2) http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights51Space . I added more padding, more margin, a bigger width for the available rights to change (.submenuitem a span.changedRight) and I've made the arrow a bit bigger (102% font size). This way the user will select easier the items. I didn't have time to change the way the submenu is displayed (click instead of mouse over), but it's clear for me the way it will look like and I really think that this proposal is clean and easy to use/understand. Raluca.
The only advantage of another color set would be a greater space for user to click/hover (we can fix that with padding). The disadvantage is that the look&feel will be broken and also other icons will not correlate actions done in XWiki (edit, delete, comment, etc) with the corresponding rights.
If the hover/click and the size of the icons are the only problem :) then is ok
Thanks, Caty
Raluca.
Alex
On 06/04/2010 06:54 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
Hi,
Take a look at Rights 5 http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights5Space
Added: * information regarding the advanced rights (inherits, overrides) * icons built together as a whole
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ic...
* representation of "advanced rights" with the same abstract icon, but with different color (no text; we can debate this)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/co...
* inheritance arrow married with +/-
IMGs (in case of browser problem) - collapsed:
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri...
- expanded:
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights5Space/ri...
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:42, Denis Gervalle <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Caty,
On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 18:09, Ecaterina Valica <[email protected]>
wrote:
Hi Denis,
I want to thank you again for all the help you are giving :P
This is pleasure to participate especially because you provide really
good
proposals. I would also like to see others participating, currently the discussion is becoming to much bilateral IMO.
Please take a look at a proposal for "V3 and my 3)" version with
elements
from Rights2 :)
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal
and in "action"
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Space
Really nice job ! I really appreciate.
The prototype is not reflecting the "desired" interaction: both inherited info and rights change appear on hover (right icon and arrow), instead of hover | click.
I am not sure what are really your intend. I think that the big tooltips describing the rights should be the only tooltips, and should be show on hover only after a small timeout (like the yellow one currently). Clicking any where on the +/- icon or v would then open the menu. Is it what you try ?
yes, on hover show the tooltip, on click show the menu.
<snip> _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
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participants (4)
-
Alex Busenius -
Denis Gervalle -
Ecaterina Valica -
Raluca Stavro