So basically you want to introduce the "Program Files" of XWiki ? +1 for A other important pros IMO: already protected against edition by anyone else than admin, allow extension to do have to deal with that with some hypothetical "XWikiAdminGroup" group that may or may not exist On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Denis Gervalle <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Devs,
Appart from the “conventional” application that manage their own data subset, there is more general application, that are either providing wiki-wide feature without data, or that are managing data in the whole wiki, providing additional features. For example, the Administration application, the CKEditor, … and other application actually mixed in the XWiki space.
For those applications, the code/data space separation has no real meaning, but I think it would also be nice to have the code of those applications under a common root, in place of having all of them creating a space at the root of the wiki. For example, currently the UI of the CKEditor is in a CKEditor space at the root, and I have no easy way to distinguish it from a normal space (except that it is invisible), and it is also holding a space name. I agree, there is little chance that a user wants to create an editorial space by the name, but it could happen, and depends on the application space name, there could be more common cases.
My proposal is to put such application inside a common space. There is several options for the name of that space:
A) Reuse the existing “XWiki” space Pros: - not holding a new name at root - always available - nice place to move application already mixup in that space to their own space Cons: - it is currently a mess - it holds users (but shouldn’t we move them to Users space ? I know it is not easy)
B) Create a new space for this purpose B1) XWikiApplications B2) XWikiExtensions B3) WikiApplications B4) WikiExtensions B5) Wiki B6) … ?
wdyt ?
On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 9:53 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Ludovic,
On 20 Nov 2015 at 19:30:26, Ludovic Dubost ([email protected](mailto: [email protected])) wrote:
On this subject, while showing 7.3 in an internal meeting, we saw that the Data page/space is the parent of all content pages in an AWM, but does not actually exist, so in the breadcrumb if you click on "Data" you get an error.
Thanks for reporting, see http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-12836#
-Vincent
Ludovic
--*Ludovic Dubost* *Founder and CEO* [email protected] skype: ldubost Blog: http://blog.ludovic.org
On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Anca Luca wrote:
On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 3:17 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Hi Anca, On 14 Nov 2015 at 10:57:24, Marius Dumitru Florea ( [email protected]) wrote:
Hi Anca,
On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 8:51 PM, Anca Luca wrote:
Hello all,
my 2 cents on the "Data" or "Entries" subspace. ( But too late, since I see the issue was already closed :( ) Thanks for taking the time to participate.
I'm afraid that, even if technically it seems like a nice idea, it's not that nice for a "regular non-developer user" which perceive an application as only having data.
They don't need to and won't know that the code of that application is also stored on the wiki, in another subspace that is called "Code".
The Code space is still hidden so a regular user doesn't see it. There's no change in this regard.
There is complaint about the size and the amount of bloat in the XWiki URLS (the /xwiki/bin/view/ part) and this would be an extra one, for the case of applications. I don't think url rewrite should be considered so easily as an option because it's technically not so easy to achieve and I think that there can be an issue with colision (e.g. between MyApp/WebPreferences and MyApp/Data/WebPreferences).
So you think having MyApp and MyAppCode is better? You need to read the whole discussion thread and see that we’ve discussed about what you said already and we’ve weighted pros and cons to decide in the end that all things considered the Code and Data subspaces were probably the best solution.
If you think they are not, please make a proposal that you think would be better (ideally taking into account the arguments that we’ve already discussed) and we can discuss updating what’s been already done.
Actually, I read the discussion and I re-read it now. And, depending on how the "delete application data" is implemented (IIRC In the UI now) we could more go for detailed delete options (by default and in the app withim minutes itself). All the arguments that were brought in the discussion are correct, I just think that in some of them the 80-20 rule was wrongly estimated: * deleting a whole application data is frequent, but not _that_ frequent (20%). * it was said that a url rewrite should be doable (people really bothered by the Data particle should be able to do it). No, it's not that easy (less than 20% of the people bothered by the Data particle can do it). * less than 20% of usecases have an application within minutes that has two data spaces. Actually, I am wondering how is that an app within minutes still, because out of my knowledge this is not a known feature of app within minutes, and it means that some customization has been done to that application. For me, if an application was customized, it's still an application but not "within minutes" anymore. * if we're talking about applications in general, I think just as frequent is the case when the same application has multiple data spaces (e.g. having multiple blogs, each in a different space, in a different point in the hierarchy). Having multiple subspaces in the application space would not help much in this case. * for the rights issue, in 80% of the cases the code authors are data authors as well, there are just additional rights on the code (sub) space, so it's normal that code space inherits from app space. * deleting a space without some of its subspaces is a larger problem than app within minutes, so a more generic solution for that could be interesting. Also, I think it would be a frequent problem (80%), so having a flexible solution for it can be interesting.
Actually, the only thing on which I have a doubt that it would affect 80% of the usecases is the Data particle itself in the url :) (maybe more like 50-50 :D) . However, from the discussions in the thread I kind of had the feeling that it being annoying is considered to fall in the 20% bucket, compared to the other arguments which would be 80. I have the opposite feeling, as I explained above in the bullet list.
It's a good thing that it's configurable, though.
In what concerns the more generic topic of best practices: In the cases of larger customizations that I met so far (on non-nested spaces, though), the isolation was much more important: all the code for all the applications and all the customizations is in one space, in order to be able to manage it together as a group (rights, UI settings, deployment, search, etc), while the data was spread around in spaces that are dedicated exclusively to data, potentially more data spaces for all the different areas of applications coded by that code. Note that this would not fit in the case of a standard app within minutes anyway. I haven't thought yet about how this strategy would adapt for nested spaces, if each code space should be nested under its application space or still keep it all isolated...
Thanks, Anca
But I guess this is really too late now... It’ s not too late. This was done recently and we can still tune
things if
there’s a better proposal.
The location where the application stores its data is configurable. What we need (and the topic of this thread) is a best practice, ie. what’s used by default. We want apps by default to use these best practices, even if they’re configurable (that should be the exception). So it would be nice to have Anca and all the devs on this list to agree to use the best practices :)
Thanks
-Vincent
Thanks, Marius
Thanks, Anca
On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 11:34 AM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie"
Delhumeau <
[email protected]> wrote:
> Hello. > > Why not using "Entries" instead of "Data" for the name? It will be shown > both in the URL and in the breadcrumb, and fit with most of the use-cases. > > Users can still change the title of the "Entries" space to have a more > specific name such as "Ideas", "Meetings", etc... > > Just my 2 cents. > > 2015-10-26 10:45 GMT+01:00 Marius Dumitru Florea < > [email protected]>: > > > On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 5:06 PM, Clemens Klein-Robbenhaar < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 30, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau < > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > >> 2015-09-30 10:58 GMT+02:00 [email protected] < [email protected] >: > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >>> On 30 Sep 2015 at 10:53:48, Thomas Mortagne ( > > [email protected] > > > >>> (mailto:[email protected])) wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> I think what I like best is some option in the refactoring API to > > > >>>> indicate that you want to delete only final documents in the space > > (so > > > >>>> skipping space home page and spaces). > > > >>> > > > >>> That could be interesting for some use cases but it’s risky for > this > > > one. > > > >>> Several apps may generate terminal pages and users could create > > > terminal > > > >>> pages in app spaces too. So that would not just remove the app > > > technical > > > >>> pages, it could remove more. > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> The idea of Thomas is an option to only delete *terminal* pages > > located > > > in > > > >> the space with a depth of 1. Said differently, the direct and > terminal > > > >> children of the page. > > > >> > > > >> This way, you can delete all data located in the space without > > removing > > > the > > > >> code (because the code would be located in a deeper depth), but it > > works > > > >> only if the app generates data as terminal pages. It is the case > right > > > now, > > > >> but new apps should work differently and create their data as > regular > > > >> Nested Pages. > > > >> > > > > > > > > I don't agree at all on this later statement. New apps _may_ work > > > > differently and create nested pages, but it _should_ not. > > > > Anyway, this is why I am wondering about properly separating WebHome, > > > Code > > > > and Data. > > > > I do not think we need stable names, but the structure matter. If > Data > > > does > > > > not look nice, you may leave apps decide for themselves, the rules > > being > > > > put your data in subspaces, and code in the Code subspace, or > something > > > > like that. Please note that using "space" in the previous rules looks > > bad > > > > to me, since we do not have space anymore ;) > > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > > > > > > Just another random thought: some applications might really want to > have > > > two "data" spaces; > > > for example currently in the blog you cannot have a category and a blog > > > post with the same name. > > > If both end up in their respective "subfolders" "Blog.Posts" and > > > "Blog.Categories", the problem goes away. > > > > > > > Indeed, but I don't think it contradicts the rule. IMO the best practice > > should be to group the application data in one or more subspaces under > the > > application space. If the application generates only one type of data > (e.g. > > Events) then it makes sense to have only one Data subspace. If the > > application generates two or more types of data (Categories and Posts) > then > > it may need more subspaces. The only question is whether we should group > > these subspaces under a Data subspace, e.g. > > > > App / Data / Categories > > > > or leave them directly under the application space: > > > > App / Categories > > > > I prefer the second option. > > > > Another thing to decide is whether the Data space should be named "Data" > or > > some domain-specific name. Considering that we can set the title of the > > home page to anything we want, I prefer to use "Data" as name, so that > the > > code deals with a generic "Data" space, even though the user sees > "Events" > > in the breadcrumbs. > > > > > > > On the other hand if the application pages end up directly inside the > > main > > > page, then e.g. you cannot have a category "Code" in the Blog. > > > (You cannot have a blog post with it either, but that might be a > smaller > > > nuisance) > > > > > > > Good point, and another reason to group the application data in nested > > spaces under the application space. > > > > Thanks, > > Marius
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