[xwiki-devs] Status about Hidden pages + Future direction
Hi everyone, I wasn’t sure about current rule for hiding pages so I researched it and I’m listing below what I believe is our current status. I’d like to document it on dev.xwiki.org if we’re ok with this status. Current rules: ============== * Technical documents must be hidden * Technical apps must be hidden and not appear in the Document Tree. These are apps that don’t generate content data. For example the following apps (not exhaustive list) have their pages hidden (including WebHome): ** Stats app ** Active Installs app ** AWM app ** Color Themes app (it generates data but not content data) ** Dashboard app ** Scheduler app * Apps that generate content pages (ie pages that should be appear in global search results) must have their WebHome page not hidden (and the generated content pages must also not be hidden). As a consequence these apps will appear in the Document Tree. Future: ======= It would also be nice to discuss if in the future we wish to separate more Apps from Content and hide all Application pages (including Webhome), so that it is less confusing for users who would: * Use the App bar to navigate to applications * Use the Document Tree to navigate to content pages I personally would like this I think but the current problem is that generated content pages won’t be found in global search results. Each app can provide a specialized search ofc but it’s not good enough. Thus we’d need to find a way for the entries to appear in the global search results even though they are hidden. One solution would be to have a way to mark a space as an application space and exclude those from the DocumentTree (for example). Before we dive into the solutions in details, would you agree that it would be good to better separate Apps from Content? Some Links: =========== * Currently documented best practices about hiding technical documents: http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/ApplicationDevelopmentBestPrac... * Mail thread: http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble.com/Brainstorming-Rules-for-hidden-documents-n... * JIRA issue: http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/MOCCACAL-85 Thanks -Vincent
IMO, the App bar is not very reliable nor scalable solution. Sure, it looks nice in the vanilla distribution because we have a handful of apps, but once the admin starts installing more, it does not scale. To fix that, the admin would edit the list of displayed apps and limit it to a smaller set, but then the additionally installed apps will no longer be discoverable by the users if we plan to stop showing them in the documentsTree as well. What would be nice would be to have a "more applications" button in the app bar for regular users as well, that would lead them to a page with a livetable of installed apps that they can use (which are not necessarily listed in the app bar nor in the documentsTree macro). +1 for the distinction between content apps vs no-content apps when deciding to hide or not the entry page of the application. Sounds like a good rule. Personally, I don`t really agree to go further with the separation of apps and content for the simple reason that some apps really generate content (reports, events, tasks, etc.) which are wiki pages/documents and on which users want to interract/collaborate. I believe that hiding these app generated content pages from the general navigation / documentTree would only hinder the collaboration. Thanks, Eduard On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 1:18 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I wasn’t sure about current rule for hiding pages so I researched it and I’m listing below what I believe is our current status. I’d like to document it on dev.xwiki.org if we’re ok with this status.
Current rules: ==============
* Technical documents must be hidden * Technical apps must be hidden and not appear in the Document Tree. These are apps that don’t generate content data. For example the following apps (not exhaustive list) have their pages hidden (including WebHome): ** Stats app ** Active Installs app ** AWM app ** Color Themes app (it generates data but not content data) ** Dashboard app ** Scheduler app * Apps that generate content pages (ie pages that should be appear in global search results) must have their WebHome page not hidden (and the generated content pages must also not be hidden). As a consequence these apps will appear in the Document Tree.
Future: =======
It would also be nice to discuss if in the future we wish to separate more Apps from Content and hide all Application pages (including Webhome), so that it is less confusing for users who would: * Use the App bar to navigate to applications * Use the Document Tree to navigate to content pages
I personally would like this I think but the current problem is that generated content pages won’t be found in global search results. Each app can provide a specialized search ofc but it’s not good enough. Thus we’d need to find a way for the entries to appear in the global search results even though they are hidden. One solution would be to have a way to mark a space as an application space and exclude those from the DocumentTree (for example).
Before we dive into the solutions in details, would you agree that it would be good to better separate Apps from Content?
Some Links: ===========
* Currently documented best practices about hiding technical documents: http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/ApplicationDevelopmentBestPrac... * Mail thread: http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble.com/Brainstorming-Rules-for-hidden-documents-n... * JIRA issue: http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/MOCCACAL-85
Thanks -Vincent
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
On 23 Oct 2015 at 13:10:09, Eduard Moraru ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
IMO, the App bar is not very reliable nor scalable solution. Sure, it looks nice in the vanilla distribution because we have a handful of apps, but once the admin starts installing more, it does not scale. To fix that, the admin would edit the list of displayed apps and limit it to a smaller set, but then the additionally installed apps will no longer be discoverable by the users if we plan to stop showing them in the documentsTree as well.
What would be nice would be to have a "more applications" button in the app bar for regular users as well, that would lead them to a page with a livetable of installed apps that they can use (which are not necessarily listed in the app bar nor in the documentsTree macro).
Yep I definitely agree and I think we’ve already agreed about this in the past (there might even be a jira issue; if not we need to create one). I envision a new "Application Index” Drawer entry. I wouldn’t put it in the App Bar since: 1) the goal of the app bar is to only display the list of apps selected by the admin 2) the user can remove the app bar and configure his/her wiki with different panels and we should still be able to access the App Index Thanks -Vincent
+1 for the distinction between content apps vs no-content apps when deciding to hide or not the entry page of the application. Sounds like a good rule.
Personally, I don`t really agree to go further with the separation of apps and content for the simple reason that some apps really generate content (reports, events, tasks, etc.) which are wiki pages/documents and on which users want to interract/collaborate. I believe that hiding these app generated content pages from the general navigation / documentTree would only hinder the collaboration.
Thanks, Eduard
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 1:18 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Hi everyone,
I wasn’t sure about current rule for hiding pages so I researched it and I’m listing below what I believe is our current status. I’d like to document it on dev.xwiki.org if we’re ok with this status.
Current rules: ==============
* Technical documents must be hidden * Technical apps must be hidden and not appear in the Document Tree. These are apps that don’t generate content data. For example the following apps (not exhaustive list) have their pages hidden (including WebHome): ** Stats app ** Active Installs app ** AWM app ** Color Themes app (it generates data but not content data) ** Dashboard app ** Scheduler app * Apps that generate content pages (ie pages that should be appear in global search results) must have their WebHome page not hidden (and the generated content pages must also not be hidden). As a consequence these apps will appear in the Document Tree.
Future: =======
It would also be nice to discuss if in the future we wish to separate more Apps from Content and hide all Application pages (including Webhome), so that it is less confusing for users who would: * Use the App bar to navigate to applications * Use the Document Tree to navigate to content pages
I personally would like this I think but the current problem is that generated content pages won’t be found in global search results. Each app can provide a specialized search ofc but it’s not good enough. Thus we’d need to find a way for the entries to appear in the global search results even though they are hidden. One solution would be to have a way to mark a space as an application space and exclude those from the DocumentTree (for example).
Before we dive into the solutions in details, would you agree that it would be good to better separate Apps from Content?
Some Links: ===========
* Currently documented best practices about hiding technical documents: http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/ApplicationDevelopmentBestPrac... * Mail thread: http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble.com/Brainstorming-Rules-for-hidden-documents-n... * JIRA issue: http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/MOCCACAL-85
Thanks -Vincent
2015-10-23 13:09 GMT+02:00 Eduard Moraru <[email protected]>:
IMO, the App bar is not very reliable nor scalable solution. Sure, it looks nice in the vanilla distribution because we have a handful of apps, but once the admin starts installing more, it does not scale. To fix that, the admin would edit the list of displayed apps and limit it to a smaller set, but then the additionally installed apps will no longer be discoverable by the users if we plan to stop showing them in the documentsTree as well.
What would be nice would be to have a "more applications" button in the app bar for regular users as well, that would lead them to a page with a livetable of installed apps that they can use (which are not necessarily listed in the app bar nor in the documentsTree macro).
That was part of the original Caty's proposal. I just have not been implemented yet. Jira: http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11423
+1 for the distinction between content apps vs no-content apps when deciding to hide or not the entry page of the application. Sounds like a good rule.
Personally, I don`t really agree to go further with the separation of apps and content for the simple reason that some apps really generate content (reports, events, tasks, etc.) which are wiki pages/documents and on which users want to interract/collaborate. I believe that hiding these app generated content pages from the general navigation / documentTree would only hinder the collaboration.
Thanks, Eduard
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 1:18 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I wasn’t sure about current rule for hiding pages so I researched it and I’m listing below what I believe is our current status. I’d like to document it on dev.xwiki.org if we’re ok with this status.
Current rules: ==============
* Technical documents must be hidden * Technical apps must be hidden and not appear in the Document Tree. These are apps that don’t generate content data. For example the following apps (not exhaustive list) have their pages hidden (including WebHome): ** Stats app ** Active Installs app ** AWM app ** Color Themes app (it generates data but not content data) ** Dashboard app ** Scheduler app * Apps that generate content pages (ie pages that should be appear in global search results) must have their WebHome page not hidden (and the generated content pages must also not be hidden). As a consequence these apps will appear in the Document Tree.
Future: =======
It would also be nice to discuss if in the future we wish to separate more Apps from Content and hide all Application pages (including Webhome), so that it is less confusing for users who would: * Use the App bar to navigate to applications * Use the Document Tree to navigate to content pages
I personally would like this I think but the current problem is that generated content pages won’t be found in global search results. Each app can provide a specialized search ofc but it’s not good enough. Thus we’d need to find a way for the entries to appear in the global search results even though they are hidden. One solution would be to have a way to mark a space as an application space and exclude those from the DocumentTree (for example).
Before we dive into the solutions in details, would you agree that it would be good to better separate Apps from Content?
Some Links: ===========
* Currently documented best practices about hiding technical documents:
http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/ApplicationDevelopmentBestPrac...
* Mail thread:
http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble.com/Brainstorming-Rules-for-hidden-documents-n...
* JIRA issue: http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/MOCCACAL-85
Thanks -Vincent
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
-- Guillaume Delhumeau ([email protected]) Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS Committer on the XWiki.org project
Hi everyone,
I wasn’t sure about current rule for hiding pages so I researched it and I’m listing below what I believe is our current status. I’d like to document it on dev.xwiki.org if we’re ok with this status.
Current rules: ==============
* Technical documents must be hidden * Technical apps must be hidden and not appear in the Document Tree. These are apps that don’t generate content data. For example the following apps (not exhaustive list) have their pages hidden (including WebHome): ** Stats app ** Active Installs app ** AWM app ** Color Themes app (it generates data but not content data) ** Dashboard app ** Scheduler app * Apps that generate content pages (ie pages that should be appear in global search results) must have their WebHome page not hidden (and the generated content pages must also not be hidden). As a consequence these apps will appear in the Document Tree.
I have not been aware of that rule. If this is indeed the case then it would decide the issue which has triggered the discussion ;)
Future: =======
It would also be nice to discuss if in the future we wish to separate more Apps from Content and hide all Application pages (including Webhome), so that it is less confusing for users who would: * Use the App bar to navigate to applications * Use the Document Tree to navigate to content pages
I personally would like this I think but the current problem is that generated content pages won’t be found in global search results. Each app can provide a specialized search ofc but it’s not good enough. Thus we’d need to find a way for the entries to appear in the global search results even though they are hidden. One solution would be to have a way to mark a space as an application space and exclude those from the DocumentTree (for example).
Before we dive into the solutions in details, would you agree that it would be good to better separate Apps from Content?
After thinking about it for a moment I tend to say "mostly yes, but it might depend" More specifically: yes for navigation, not so for search. For the example of the mocca calendar (which triggered this discussion) or any calendar app I feel it is likely that events should not show in the general "navigation", A navigation treating them as pages will most likely only be able to list then alphabetically by name; the special "navigation" in the calendar view does a much better job, especially if you think about very old events which just happen to start with 'a'. The same reasoning applies e.g. to the task manager (might have lots of resolved issues in the navigation), and with somewhat lesser force to the blog. Btw, I feel it a bit odd to currently have the "XWiki" Space in the navigation, which can be expanded to show (mostly, but not exclusively) the users of the wiki. I am not sure if the same apples for e.g. the "Ideas" application, and I know some small "App within minutes" application which have only a few pages and navigating them might make sense (e.g. book inventory lists - not for a library, but "about these book shelves in both of our rooms that have some" ;) ). However about the search, most likely users want the application data in the search result, and only filter them optionally (especially true with blog entries, maybe less with Task Manager (think about old tasks) or calendar events). It is maybe a bit too specific, and technically non-trivial to implement efficiently, but what about a flag "hide my child pages from navigation"? (Just a Friday afternoon idea) Or maybe it is a property of the object on the page? E.g. calendar: show calendar pages (there are only a few), but hide events (there are many); for task manager: show project pages, but hide task pages; do not show user pages as "navigation" (as there is the user directory which does a better job), etc Or maybe we need two flags: "Hide from navigation" and "hide from search". (I know about users who tend to hide the "WebHome" of their content spaces, to avoid it showing up in the navigation - and I know about these users because they call me and complain that their WebHome-pages do not show up in search ;))
Some Links: ===========
* Currently documented best practices about hiding technical documents: http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/ApplicationDevelopmentBestPrac... * Mail thread: http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble.com/Brainstorming-Rules-for-hidden-documents-n... * JIRA issue: http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/MOCCACAL-85
Thanks -Vincent
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
mit freundlichen Grüßen Clemens Klein-Robbenhaar -- Clemens Klein-Robbenhaar Software Development EsPresto AG Breite Str. 30-31 10178 Berlin/Germany Tel: +49.(0)30.90 226.763 Fax: +49.(0)30.90 226.760 [email protected] www.espresto.de HRB 77554 B - Berlin-Charlottenburg Vorstand: Maya Biersack, Peter Biersack Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Dipl.-Wirtsch.-Ing. Winfried Weber Zertifiziert nach ISO 9001:2008
On 23 Oct 2015 at 13:13:20, Clemens Klein-Robbenhaar ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
Hi everyone,
I wasn’t sure about current rule for hiding pages so I researched it and I’m listing below what I believe is our current status. I’d like to document it on dev.xwiki.org if we’re ok with this status.
Current rules: ==============
* Technical documents must be hidden * Technical apps must be hidden and not appear in the Document Tree. These are apps that don’t generate content data. For example the following apps (not exhaustive list) have their pages hidden (including WebHome): ** Stats app ** Active Installs app ** AWM app ** Color Themes app (it generates data but not content data) ** Dashboard app ** Scheduler app * Apps that generate content pages (ie pages that should be appear in global search results) must have their WebHome page not hidden (and the generated content pages must also not be hidden). As a consequence these apps will appear in the Document Tree.
I have not been aware of that rule.
It’s not an official rule that was discussed/voted, which is the reason I’m sending this email. However it’s what I see that we’ve done in practice when I analyzed existing apps. So if you agree about it for now please let us know so that I can officially document it as our current rules.
If this is indeed the case then it would decide the issue which has triggered the discussion ;)
Future: =======
It would also be nice to discuss if in the future we wish to separate more Apps from Content and hide all Application pages (including Webhome), so that it is less confusing for users who would: * Use the App bar to navigate to applications * Use the Document Tree to navigate to content pages
I personally would like this I think but the current problem is that generated content pages won’t be found in global search results. Each app can provide a specialized search ofc but it’s not good enough. Thus we’d need to find a way for the entries to appear in the global search results even though they are hidden. One solution would be to have a way to mark a space as an application space and exclude those from the DocumentTree (for example).
Before we dive into the solutions in details, would you agree that it would be good to better separate Apps from Content?
After thinking about it for a moment I tend to say "mostly yes, but it might depend" More specifically: yes for navigation, not so for search.
For the example of the mocca calendar (which triggered this discussion) or any calendar app I feel it is likely that events should not show in the general "navigation", A navigation treating them as pages will most likely only be able to list then alphabetically by name; the special "navigation" in the calendar view does a much better job, especially if you think about very old events which just happen to start with 'a'.
The same reasoning applies e.g. to the task manager (might have lots of resolved issues in the navigation), and with somewhat lesser force to the blog.
Btw, I feel it a bit odd to currently have the "XWiki" Space in the navigation, which can be expanded to show (mostly, but not exclusively) the users of the wiki.
Yep we need to do something at some point but it’s hard. We need to move all users to a User space for example (and change all the code that hardcode users to be in the XWiki space…).
I am not sure if the same apples for e.g. the "Ideas" application, and I know some small "App within minutes" application which have only a few pages and navigating them might make sense (e.g. book inventory lists - not for a library, but "about these book shelves in both of our rooms that have some" ;) ).
However about the search, most likely users want the application data in the search result, and only filter them optionally (especially true with blog entries, maybe less with Task Manager (think about old tasks) or calendar events).
Depends on the app, I don’t think they should see Scheduler jobs for example.
It is maybe a bit too specific, and technically non-trivial to implement efficiently, but what about a flag "hide my child pages from navigation"? (Just a Friday afternoon idea) Or maybe it is a property of the object on the page? E.g. calendar: show calendar pages (there are only a few), but hide events (there are many); for task manager: show project pages, but hide task pages; do not show user pages as "navigation" (as there is the user directory which does a better job), etc Or maybe we need two flags: "Hide from navigation" and "hide from search". (I know about users who tend to hide the "WebHome" of their content spaces, to avoid it showing up in the navigation - and I know about these users because they call me and complain that their WebHome-pages do not show up in search ;))
So yes I agree that in the end we should probably: * Have an Application Descriptor xobject * Have some xproperties of that descriptor that says whether the app generates content data and another that says whether the generated content should be displayed in search results Now the issue with this would probably be performance of implementation. AFAIR this is why we didn’t implement this with xobjects in the past and instead use a hidden field metadata in XWikiDocument (Jean-Vincent coded this and we had lots of discussion at the time). Now this could maybe be fixed with some Application Descriptor caching. Thanks -Vincent
Some Links: ===========
* Currently documented best practices about hiding technical documents: http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/ApplicationDevelopmentBestPrac... * Mail thread: http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble.com/Brainstorming-Rules-for-hidden-documents-n... * JIRA issue: http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/MOCCACAL-85
Thanks -Vincent
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
mit freundlichen Grüßen Clemens Klein-Robbenhaar
-- Clemens Klein-Robbenhaar Software Development EsPresto AG Breite Str. 30-31 10178 Berlin/Germany Tel: +49.(0)30.90 226.763 Fax: +49.(0)30.90 226.760 [email protected] www.espresto.de
HRB 77554 B - Berlin-Charlottenburg Vorstand: Maya Biersack, Peter Biersack Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Dipl.-Wirtsch.-Ing. Winfried Weber Zertifiziert nach ISO 9001:2008 _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 1:18 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I wasn’t sure about current rule for hiding pages so I researched it and I’m listing below what I believe is our current status. I’d like to document it on dev.xwiki.org if we’re ok with this status.
Current rules: ==============
* Technical documents must be hidden * Technical apps must be hidden and not appear in the Document Tree. These are apps that don’t generate content data. For example the following apps (not exhaustive list) have their pages hidden (including WebHome): ** Stats app ** Active Installs app ** AWM app ** Color Themes app (it generates data but not content data) ** Dashboard app ** Scheduler app * Apps that generate content pages (ie pages that should be appear in global search results) must have their WebHome page not hidden (and the generated content pages must also not be hidden). As a consequence these apps will appear in the Document Tree.
+1
Future: =======
It would also be nice to discuss if in the future we wish to separate more Apps from Content and hide all Application pages (including Webhome), so that it is less confusing for users who would: * Use the App bar to navigate to applications * Use the Document Tree to navigate to content pages
I personally would like this I think but the current problem is that generated content pages won’t be found in global search results. Each app can provide a specialized search ofc but it’s not good enough. Thus we’d need to find a way for the entries to appear in the global search results even though they are hidden. One solution would be to have a way to mark a space as an application space and exclude those from the DocumentTree (for example).
Before we dive into the solutions in details, would you agree that it would be good to better separate Apps from Content?
Some Links: ===========
* Currently documented best practices about hiding technical documents: http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/ApplicationDevelopmentBestPrac... * Mail thread: http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble.com/Brainstorming-Rules-for-hidden-documents-n... * JIRA issue: http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/MOCCACAL-85
Thanks -Vincent
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Hi everyone,
I wasn’t sure about current rule for hiding pages so I researched it and I’m listing below what I believe is our current status. I’d like to document it on dev.xwiki.org if we’re ok with this status.
Current rules: ==============
* Technical documents must be hidden * Technical apps must be hidden and not appear in the Document Tree. These are apps that don’t generate content data. For example the following apps (not exhaustive list) have their pages hidden (including WebHome): ** Stats app ** Active Installs app ** AWM app ** Color Themes app (it generates data but not content data) ** Dashboard app ** Scheduler app * Apps that generate content pages (ie pages that should be appear in global search results) must have their WebHome page not hidden (and the generated content pages must also not be hidden). As a consequence these apps will appear in the Document Tree.
+1
participants (5)
-
Clemens Klein-Robbenhaar -
Eduard Moraru -
Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau -
Marius Dumitru Florea -
vincent＠massol.net