[xwiki-devs] [UX][Consistency][Vote] "Page" vs. "Document" consistent naming
Hi, We are using mixed naming when referring to a document/page, not only on different pages, but also in the same context (Rename step for example). There is also an issue referring to this problem XWIKI-5401<http://jira.xwiki.org/jira/browse/XWIKI-5401>and we need to find an answer in order to move forward consistency. So the question is which version we prefer: "Page" or "Document" ? I'm voting +1 for "Page". "Page" is more used IMO, especially in the "Space"/"Page" context. "Page" is more general than "Document" and better fitted for a platform that encapsulates all kind of content (not just documents). Please cast your vote. Thanks, Caty
+1 for page This is only because my own maneer of understanding words : When I think to a document, I think more to an attached file. Thibaut DEVERAUX Tel : 06 75 51 20 80 [email protected] http://www.thib-d.com Skype : thibaut.deveraux @ Bricks, design et accompagnement projet [email protected] Découvrir Bricks : bricks-studio.com L'actualité du studio sur notre blog : bricks-it.com Se renseigner sur le design : design-keys.org 2011/1/7 Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <[email protected]>
Hi,
We are using mixed naming when referring to a document/page, not only on different pages, but also in the same context (Rename step for example). There is also an issue referring to this problem XWIKI-5401<http://jira.xwiki.org/jira/browse/XWIKI-5401>and we need to find an answer in order to move forward consistency.
So the question is which version we prefer: "Page" or "Document" ?
I'm voting +1 for "Page".
"Page" is more used IMO, especially in the "Space"/"Page" context. "Page" is more general than "Document" and better fitted for a platform that encapsulates all kind of content (not just documents).
Please cast your vote. Thanks, Caty _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
+1 page That is also consistent with the general HTML context that a page is displayed in a browser Cheers Peter On 08/01/2011, at 5:25 AM, Thibaut DEVERAUX wrote:
+1 for page
This is only because my own maneer of understanding words : When I think to a document, I think more to an attached file.
Thibaut DEVERAUX Tel : 06 75 51 20 80 [email protected] http://www.thib-d.com Skype : thibaut.deveraux
@ Bricks, design et accompagnement projet [email protected] Découvrir Bricks : bricks-studio.com L'actualité du studio sur notre blog : bricks-it.com Se renseigner sur le design : design-keys.org
2011/1/7 Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <[email protected]>
Hi,
We are using mixed naming when referring to a document/page, not only on different pages, but also in the same context (Rename step for example). There is also an issue referring to this problem XWIKI-5401<http://jira.xwiki.org/jira/browse/XWIKI-5401>and we need to find an answer in order to move forward consistency.
So the question is which version we prefer: "Page" or "Document" ?
I'm voting +1 for "Page".
"Page" is more used IMO, especially in the "Space"/"Page" context. "Page" is more general than "Document" and better fitted for a platform that encapsulates all kind of content (not just documents).
Please cast your vote. Thanks, Caty _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Hi, +1 for 'page' in the UI(as a dev I still prefer to call XWiki's core entity a 'document'). Thanks, Florin Ciubotaru On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 5:53 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <[email protected]
wrote:
Hi,
We are using mixed naming when referring to a document/page, not only on different pages, but also in the same context (Rename step for example). There is also an issue referring to this problem XWIKI-5401<http://jira.xwiki.org/jira/browse/XWIKI-5401>and we need to find an answer in order to move forward consistency.
So the question is which version we prefer: "Page" or "Document" ?
I'm voting +1 for "Page".
"Page" is more used IMO, especially in the "Space"/"Page" context. "Page" is more general than "Document" and better fitted for a platform that encapsulates all kind of content (not just documents).
Please cast your vote. Thanks, Caty _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
We've had this discussion in the past (unfortunately I cannot find the mail thread again). AFAIR this was my POV: * A page is the whole UI associated with a URL: content + skin + panels + etc * A document is the metadata about the entity represented by the URL. It's a non visual object. For ex "Document Index" is thus valid if you consider not the visual thing but that it's an index about the metadata. "Document Information" is also very valid. Thanks -Vincent On Jan 7, 2011, at 4:53 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) wrote:
Hi,
We are using mixed naming when referring to a document/page, not only on different pages, but also in the same context (Rename step for example). There is also an issue referring to this problem XWIKI-5401<http://jira.xwiki.org/jira/browse/XWIKI-5401>and we need to find an answer in order to move forward consistency.
So the question is which version we prefer: "Page" or "Document" ?
I'm voting +1 for "Page".
"Page" is more used IMO, especially in the "Space"/"Page" context. "Page" is more general than "Document" and better fitted for a platform that encapsulates all kind of content (not just documents).
Please cast your vote. Thanks, Caty
What is "the metadata about the entity represented by the URL. / not a visual object" ?? I think this discussion should be replaced in the average user persona point of view. - Can the average user understand what it is ? - Will understanding what it is change his maneer of using the interface ? Should this be simplified in the user side ? Thibaut DEVERAUX Tel : 06 75 51 20 80 [email protected] http://www.thib-d.com Skype : thibaut.deveraux @ Bricks, design et accompagnement projet [email protected] Découvrir Bricks : bricks-studio.com L'actualité du studio sur notre blog : bricks-it.com Se renseigner sur le design : design-keys.org 2011/1/8 Vincent Massol <[email protected]>
We've had this discussion in the past (unfortunately I cannot find the mail thread again).
AFAIR this was my POV: * A page is the whole UI associated with a URL: content + skin + panels + etc * A document is the metadata about the entity represented by the URL. It's a non visual object.
For ex "Document Index" is thus valid if you consider not the visual thing but that it's an index about the metadata. "Document Information" is also very valid.
Thanks -Vincent
On Jan 7, 2011, at 4:53 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) wrote:
Hi,
We are using mixed naming when referring to a document/page, not only on different pages, but also in the same context (Rename step for example). There is also an issue referring to this problem XWIKI-5401<http://jira.xwiki.org/jira/browse/XWIKI-5401>and we need to find an answer in order to move forward consistency.
So the question is which version we prefer: "Page" or "Document" ?
I'm voting +1 for "Page".
"Page" is more used IMO, especially in the "Space"/"Page" context. "Page" is more general than "Document" and better fitted for a platform that encapsulates all kind of content (not just documents).
Please cast your vote. Thanks, Caty
devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
On Jan 8, 2011, at 4:07 PM, Thibaut DEVERAUX wrote:
What is "the metadata about the entity represented by the URL. / not a visual object" ??
I'll list some: - content data - creation date - last modified date - tags - objects - class - versions etc
I think this discussion should be replaced in the average user persona point of view.
A document is NOT a page. For example when you the XMLRPC or REST API you don't get a "page" as a result. A page is a user-oriented representation of a document. In some cases it makes sense to talk about pages (especially when you refer to HTML representations of documents), in other cases you should talk about documents. They're both valid and just don't represent the same thing IMO.
- Can the average user understand what it is ? - Will understanding what it is change his maneer of using the interface ?
I'm not sure what you are asking. Are you implying that I've said that we shouldn't use page in user documentation or UI? I've definitely not said this. All I've said is that I would be -1 to say that we never use document and that we always use page everywhere since they're not the same thing again. Again in a page you'll have for ex skin & panels that you have in a document. Regarding "Document Index" both are valid: "Document Index" or "Page Index". And I'm fine to use Page Index if that's what we want. To summarize: * In most cases when we're doing user documentation we'll refer to pages * In some cases, when we write developer documentation we'll refer to documents when we don't mean the page but the document... :) Thanks -Vincent
Should this be simplified in the user side ?
Thibaut DEVERAUX Tel : 06 75 51 20 80 [email protected] http://www.thib-d.com Skype : thibaut.deveraux
@ Bricks, design et accompagnement projet [email protected] Découvrir Bricks : bricks-studio.com L'actualité du studio sur notre blog : bricks-it.com Se renseigner sur le design : design-keys.org
2011/1/8 Vincent Massol <[email protected]>
We've had this discussion in the past (unfortunately I cannot find the mail thread again).
AFAIR this was my POV: * A page is the whole UI associated with a URL: content + skin + panels + etc * A document is the metadata about the entity represented by the URL. It's a non visual object.
For ex "Document Index" is thus valid if you consider not the visual thing but that it's an index about the metadata. "Document Information" is also very valid.
Thanks -Vincent
On Jan 7, 2011, at 4:53 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) wrote:
Hi,
We are using mixed naming when referring to a document/page, not only on different pages, but also in the same context (Rename step for example). There is also an issue referring to this problem XWIKI-5401<http://jira.xwiki.org/jira/browse/XWIKI-5401>and we need to find an answer in order to move forward consistency.
So the question is which version we prefer: "Page" or "Document" ?
I'm voting +1 for "Page".
"Page" is more used IMO, especially in the "Space"/"Page" context. "Page" is more general than "Document" and better fitted for a platform that encapsulates all kind of content (not just documents).
Please cast your vote. Thanks, Caty
On 01/07/2011 04:53 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) wrote:
Hi,
We are using mixed naming when referring to a document/page, not only on different pages, but also in the same context (Rename step for example). There is also an issue referring to this problem XWIKI-5401<http://jira.xwiki.org/jira/browse/XWIKI-5401>and we need to find an answer in order to move forward consistency.
So the question is which version we prefer: "Page" or "Document" ?
I'm voting +1 for "Page".
"Page" is more used IMO, especially in the "Space"/"Page" context. "Page" is more general than "Document" and better fitted for a platform that encapsulates all kind of content (not just documents).
Internally it will always be Document. Page is Visual. Document is Data. Sure, Page sounds simpler and more familiar to users, but using the wrong term models one's way of thinking. Q: What is bin/login/XWiki/XWikiLogin ? Semantically, it's an action. Internally, there's no document there. Visually, I'd say it's a page, but there's no Document to manipulate, there's no copy, rename, delete, edit. Q: What is bin/Search?text=gold ? Semantically, it's still an action. Internally, there is a document. Visually, it's again a page, but you can reach the document behind it. Q: What is bin/Search?text=love ? It's a different page, but it's the same document. A document can appear as many pages, but when you act on it (edit/copy/delete), you act on the document, not on the page. Q: What is bin/get/XWiki/LiveTableResults?some=params ? Semantically, it's a service. Internally, there's a document. Visually, it doesn't appear at all, since it's used behind the scenes, but you can "see" it as a plain document when using the /view/ action. Q: What is bin/Blog/BlogIntroduction ? Semantically, it's data stored inside a document. Internally, it's data stored in a document. Visually, you can see it either as a page or a document, and the term that is used throughout the wiki will move the balance one way or the other. Page and Document are not the same thing. It may seem that they are initially, but the more you understand the difference, the better you can understand how XWiki works, and you better understand the XWiki way of working. When you browse XWiki *web pages*, you navigate through XWiki documents. +1 for Document. -- Sergiu Dumitriu http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
So it is a question about the dev documentation only ? Is it ok to say this : - end user will always see "page", - devs will see "page" for user interface and "document" for data ? As long as the end user does not have to deal with complicated concepts it is ok for me. Thx Thibaut DEVERAUX Tel : 06 75 51 20 80 [email protected] http://www.thib-d.com Skype : thibaut.deveraux @ Bricks, design et accompagnement projet [email protected] Découvrir Bricks : bricks-studio.com L'actualité du studio sur notre blog : bricks-it.com Se renseigner sur le design : design-keys.org 2011/1/9 Sergiu Dumitriu <[email protected]>
On 01/07/2011 04:53 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) wrote:
Hi,
We are using mixed naming when referring to a document/page, not only on different pages, but also in the same context (Rename step for example). There is also an issue referring to this problem XWIKI-5401<http://jira.xwiki.org/jira/browse/XWIKI-5401>and we need to find an answer in order to move forward consistency.
So the question is which version we prefer: "Page" or "Document" ?
I'm voting +1 for "Page".
"Page" is more used IMO, especially in the "Space"/"Page" context. "Page" is more general than "Document" and better fitted for a platform that encapsulates all kind of content (not just documents).
Internally it will always be Document. Page is Visual. Document is Data. Sure, Page sounds simpler and more familiar to users, but using the wrong term models one's way of thinking.
Q: What is bin/login/XWiki/XWikiLogin ? Semantically, it's an action. Internally, there's no document there. Visually, I'd say it's a page, but there's no Document to manipulate, there's no copy, rename, delete, edit.
Q: What is bin/Search?text=gold ? Semantically, it's still an action. Internally, there is a document. Visually, it's again a page, but you can reach the document behind it.
Q: What is bin/Search?text=love ? It's a different page, but it's the same document. A document can appear as many pages, but when you act on it (edit/copy/delete), you act on the document, not on the page.
Q: What is bin/get/XWiki/LiveTableResults?some=params ? Semantically, it's a service. Internally, there's a document. Visually, it doesn't appear at all, since it's used behind the scenes, but you can "see" it as a plain document when using the /view/ action.
Q: What is bin/Blog/BlogIntroduction ? Semantically, it's data stored inside a document. Internally, it's data stored in a document. Visually, you can see it either as a page or a document, and the term that is used throughout the wiki will move the balance one way or the other.
Page and Document are not the same thing. It may seem that they are initially, but the more you understand the difference, the better you can understand how XWiki works, and you better understand the XWiki way of working.
When you browse XWiki *web pages*, you navigate through XWiki documents.
+1 for Document. -- Sergiu Dumitriu http://purl.org/net/sergiu/ _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Hello, IMO, "Page" and "Document" have different meanings and are both valid. "Page" is related to the layout and "Document" is related to the entity containing data that is behind the "Page". I would prefer to keep both terms, and depending on the context and on the target user, we should use the one that fits better. A regular user will probably not understand what a document means and will confuse it with a file, an attachment or other things. But an advanced user will understand for sure this term. Renaming is an action made both on the "Page" (from a regular user point of view, the page is being referenced from other pages, from the same page or by the URL with another name) and on the "Document" (the document entity is being referenced with another name - its name property is being changed in the database). Raluca. On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 5:53 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi,
We are using mixed naming when referring to a document/page, not only on different pages, but also in the same context (Rename step for example). There is also an issue referring to this problem XWIKI-5401<http://jira.xwiki.org/jira/browse/XWIKI-5401>and we need to find an answer in order to move forward consistency.
So the question is which version we prefer: "Page" or "Document" ?
I'm voting +1 for "Page".
"Page" is more used IMO, especially in the "Space"/"Page" context. "Page" is more general than "Document" and better fitted for a platform that encapsulates all kind of content (not just documents).
Please cast your vote. Thanks, Caty _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
+1 also for page, for the same reasons raised by others BUT : could we have it as a variable in the admin ? We could imagine situations where it is important for the user to name it document, and to name a space as "folder", or "application". More : as we have page type management, could we have generic page types (page, document, code, etc.) with specific icon in the UI ? Same with spaces (space, project, application, etc.) Best Gregory Le 7 janv. 2011 à 16:53, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) a écrit :
Hi,
We are using mixed naming when referring to a document/page, not only on different pages, but also in the same context (Rename step for example). There is also an issue referring to this problem XWIKI-5401<http://jira.xwiki.org/jira/browse/XWIKI-5401>and we need to find an answer in order to move forward consistency.
So the question is which version we prefer: "Page" or "Document" ?
I'm voting +1 for "Page".
"Page" is more used IMO, especially in the "Space"/"Page" context. "Page" is more general than "Document" and better fitted for a platform that encapsulates all kind of content (not just documents).
Please cast your vote. Thanks, Caty _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
On 01/10/2011 12:49 PM, Gregory GUENEAU wrote:
+1 also for page, for the same reasons raised by others
BUT : could we have it as a variable in the admin ? We could imagine situations where it is important for the user to name it document, and to name a space as "folder", or "application".
No, this is going to do more harm than good. What do we write in the documentation? Do we make 2-3 sets of screenshots to show the possible display variants?
More : as we have page type management, could we have generic page types (page, document, code, etc.) with specific icon in the UI ? Same with spaces (space, project, application, etc.)
Valid idea for the future.
Le 7 janv. 2011 à 16:53, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) a écrit :
Hi,
We are using mixed naming when referring to a document/page, not only on different pages, but also in the same context (Rename step for example). There is also an issue referring to this problem XWIKI-5401<http://jira.xwiki.org/jira/browse/XWIKI-5401>and we need to find an answer in order to move forward consistency.
So the question is which version we prefer: "Page" or "Document" ?
I'm voting +1 for "Page".
"Page" is more used IMO, especially in the "Space"/"Page" context. "Page" is more general than "Document" and better fitted for a platform that encapsulates all kind of content (not just documents).
Please cast your vote. Thanks, Caty
-- Sergiu Dumitriu http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
Hello, I think that pages should be used for everything that is exposed to end users. From an end user perspective, there is no difference between a page and a document, so there is no point in using 2 different wordings. Page makes more sense IMO. Document should be used for XWik advanced users. -- Thibaut On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:34 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[email protected]> wrote:
On 01/10/2011 12:49 PM, Gregory GUENEAU wrote:
+1 also for page, for the same reasons raised by others
BUT : could we have it as a variable in the admin ? We could imagine situations where it is important for the user to name it document, and to name a space as "folder", or "application".
No, this is going to do more harm than good. What do we write in the documentation? Do we make 2-3 sets of screenshots to show the possible display variants?
More : as we have page type management, could we have generic page types (page, document, code, etc.) with specific icon in the UI ? Same with spaces (space, project, application, etc.)
Valid idea for the future.
Le 7 janv. 2011 à 16:53, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) a écrit :
Hi,
We are using mixed naming when referring to a document/page, not only on different pages, but also in the same context (Rename step for example). There is also an issue referring to this problem XWIKI-5401<http://jira.xwiki.org/jira/browse/XWIKI-5401>and we need to find an answer in order to move forward consistency.
So the question is which version we prefer: "Page" or "Document" ?
I'm voting +1 for "Page".
"Page" is more used IMO, especially in the "Space"/"Page" context. "Page" is more general than "Document" and better fitted for a platform
that
encapsulates all kind of content (not just documents).
Please cast your vote. Thanks, Caty
-- Sergiu Dumitriu http://purl.org/net/sergiu/ _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Hi, This vote has not be concluded. The majority of votants were in favor of the term 'Page', since it's easier for end users to understand. We should take this conclusion in consideration when doing changes to the translations, in order to assure consistency. Thanks, Caty On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Thibaut Camberlin < [email protected]> wrote:
Hello,
I think that pages should be used for everything that is exposed to end users. From an end user perspective, there is no difference between a page and a document, so there is no point in using 2 different wordings. Page makes more sense IMO.
Document should be used for XWik advanced users.
-- Thibaut
On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:34 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu <[email protected]> wrote:
On 01/10/2011 12:49 PM, Gregory GUENEAU wrote:
+1 also for page, for the same reasons raised by others
BUT : could we have it as a variable in the admin ? We could imagine situations where it is important for the user to name it document, and to name a space as "folder", or "application".
No, this is going to do more harm than good. What do we write in the documentation? Do we make 2-3 sets of screenshots to show the possible display variants?
More : as we have page type management, could we have generic page types (page, document, code, etc.) with specific icon in the UI ? Same with spaces (space, project, application, etc.)
Valid idea for the future.
Le 7 janv. 2011 à 16:53, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) a écrit :
Hi,
We are using mixed naming when referring to a document/page, not only
on
different pages, but also in the same context (Rename step for example). There is also an issue referring to this problem XWIKI-5401<http://jira.xwiki.org/jira/browse/XWIKI-5401>and we need to find an answer in order to move forward consistency.
So the question is which version we prefer: "Page" or "Document" ?
I'm voting +1 for "Page".
"Page" is more used IMO, especially in the "Space"/"Page" context. "Page" is more general than "Document" and better fitted for a platform that encapsulates all kind of content (not just documents).
Please cast your vote. Thanks, Caty
-- Sergiu Dumitriu http://purl.org/net/sergiu/ _______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________ devs mailing list [email protected] http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
On 8 Sep 2015 at 15:50:33, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
Hi,
This vote has not be concluded.
The majority of votants were in favor of the term 'Page', since it's easier for end users to understand.
Note that in the VOTE results, we should count binding VOTEs (ie from committers) separately (even though other people’s VOTE should be taken into consideration by committers when they VOTE themselves).
We should take this conclusion in consideration when doing changes to the translations, in order to assure consistency.
I see you’ve gone ahead and replaced Documents by Pages everywhere. Personally this looks to me. Note that the same will need to be done in the documentation on xwiki.org(http://xwiki.org) probably. Even though in lots of cases Documents is more precise than Page, it’s probably simpler for users to read Pages. Said differently I’m in favor of using Pages when both Pages and Documents would fit, in order to make it simpler for users. Since Page = rendered(Document) + Panels + Skin, anything that talks about Document can be modified to talk about Pages I think (it’s just less precise). I couldn’t find a sentence where it would be plain wrong to talk about Pages instead of Document. For example, “the xobjects of this page” works IMO, since a page is more than a Document so it’s a short way of saying “the xobjects of the document contained by this page”. I can think of 2 exceptions: * Dev documentation. For example to explain the $xwiki.getDocument() API it’s probably better to mention Document instead of Page * For a Page definition… :) For example: “In XWiki a Page is the rendered version of a Document’s metadata (content, title, xobjects, etc), including Skin elements and Panels”. WDYT? Thanks -Vincent
Thanks, Caty
On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Thibaut Camberlin < [email protected]> wrote:
Hello,
I think that pages should be used for everything that is exposed to end users. From an end user perspective, there is no difference between a page and a document, so there is no point in using 2 different wordings. Page makes more sense IMO.
Document should be used for XWik advanced users.
-- Thibaut
On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:34 PM, Sergiu Dumitriu wrote:
On 01/10/2011 12:49 PM, Gregory GUENEAU wrote:
+1 also for page, for the same reasons raised by others
BUT : could we have it as a variable in the admin ? We could imagine situations where it is important for the user to name it document, and to name a space as "folder", or "application".
No, this is going to do more harm than good. What do we write in the documentation? Do we make 2-3 sets of screenshots to show the possible display variants?
More : as we have page type management, could we have generic page types (page, document, code, etc.) with specific icon in the UI ? Same with spaces (space, project, application, etc.)
Valid idea for the future.
Le 7 janv. 2011 à 16:53, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) a écrit :
Hi,
We are using mixed naming when referring to a document/page, not only
on
different pages, but also in the same context (Rename step for example). There is also an issue referring to this problem XWIKI-5401and we need to find an answer in order to move forward consistency.
So the question is which version we prefer: "Page" or "Document" ?
I'm voting +1 for "Page".
"Page" is more used IMO, especially in the "Space"/"Page" context. "Page" is more general than "Document" and better fitted for a platform that encapsulates all kind of content (not just documents).
Please cast your vote. Thanks, Caty
participants (10)
-
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) -
Florin Ciubotaru -
Gregory GUENEAU -
Peter McLarty -
Raluca Stavro -
Sergiu Dumitriu -
Thibaut Camberlin -
Thibaut DEVERAUX -
Vincent Massol -
vincent＠massol.net