Re: [xwiki-users] display page title and name(url) while creating a page

On 21 Apr 2017, at 15:36, Miroslav Galajda <miroslav.galajda(a)gmail.com> wrote: Hi, the solution I've described is javascript based and runs on client-side. From what I know, the component-based solution, which you propose, would require to have url-friendly conversion component usable in java and not as javascript code. Am I right?

On 21 April 2017 at 15:28, Vincent Massol &lt;vincent(a)massol.net&gt; wrote: > Hi Miroslav, > >> On 21 Apr 2017, at 15:05, Miroslav Galajda &lt;miroslav.galajda(a)gmail.com&gt; > wrote: >> >> Hi, let me enter into this conversion. >> Some time ago I've asked for help how to solve problem with diacritics > (or >> accents) in page names when creating new pages so that the have >> url-friendly names. You can search for "strip accents from page name used >> in url" in xwiki users mailing list. I've got no hint or solution from >> xwiki community till today. >> >> I've come with solution that ensures for simple users, creating >> url-friendly names without requiring them to think about the concept of > the >> page name or page title. They simple enter the desired human readably > page >> name, and in the code behind of the page creation, I have made some >> modifications in createinline.vm to hook into page creation process. The >> modifications are mainly javascript based, where I've attache to submit >> event of the "form#create", where I replace the entered "title" with the >> one for url-friendly. And for url-friendly name I've used this javascript >> based solution on https://pid.github.io/speakingurl/. >> I've integrated this principle also into page creation process of FAQ and >> Blog applications, which we are using in our xwiki installation. >> >> It would be nice if you could integrate this principle into xwiki so that >> everyone can have nice url-friendly urls without worring about it. It is >> also suitable for english speaking users. You don't have to worry about >> entering spaces or other non-url allowed characters, which make url look >> ugly. > > That looks very nice! > > One way forward I could think about: > * We provide some Create script service to return a URL-friendly string. > We introduce a component role for this. We refactor createinline.vm to use > it and to display the URL. > * You could then contribute your code as an extension that we make > available on extensions.xwiki.org for users to install > * We decide later on if we want to bundle it by default > > If we don’t agree about displaying the URL by default all the time then an > option is to introduce a UIX in createinline.vm for that. And this could be > implemented in your extension too for example or by default in XWiki > (possibly with an Admin setting). > > WDYT? > > Thanks > -Vincent > >> >> Thank you >> >> Best regards >> Miroslav Galajda >> >> On 21 April 2017 at 14:02, Vincent Massol &lt;vincent(a)massol.net&gt; wrote: >> >>> >>>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 13:52, Marius Dumitru Florea < >>> mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com&gt; wrote: >>>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 2:16 PM, Vincent Massol &lt;vincent(a)massol.net&gt; >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Caty, >>>>> >>>>>> On 21 Apr 2017, at 12:44, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < > valicac(a)gmail.com >>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Let's see what variants we have: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Instead of displaying "Title", display the "Name" instead. >>>>>> This won't solve anything. There is no difference between Page Name > and >>>>>> Page Title for the normal users. Seeing "Name" instead of "Title", > will >>>>> not >>>>>> stop the users to enter spaces if they want, so the URL will still > have >>>>>> those spaces. We don't force the Page Names to trim spaces. >>>>>> >>>>>> One quick solution here is indeed to use "URL" label instead of > "Name". >>>>> For >>>>>> the reasons Vincent mentioned this might not end up in the product > for >>>>> now, >>>>> >>>>> What did I mention? :) What’s preventing us from having it in the >>> product >>>>> rather soon than later (except workload ofc)? >>>>> >>>>>> so you will need to do some custom development (changing some >>>>> translations) >>>>>> to have this change. If you want to be "hackish" you can even change >>> the >>>>>> translation for "Title" to "URL" instead and hope that your users > will >>>>>> enter shorter URLs (since we generate the name from the title). >>>>>> >>>>>> Displaying just Name / URL, means users will still have to go and >>> change >>>>>> the title manually. >>>>> >>>>> This could be better (with URL name) since when you create a page > you’re >>>>> offered the ability to change the title after you click Create. >>>>> >>>>>> The only way to cut a step in the flow is to >>>>>> autogenerate the page names (which we currently do). But for your use >>>>> case >>>>>> you shoyld write a shorting/trimming algorithm, but this is custom, >>> since >>>>>> you mentioned you want just the initials and no spaces, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2. Displaying both "Title" and "Name". This will create confusion and >>>>> need >>>>>> for explanations. >>>>> >>>>> This is not exactly what is suggested either by Vishal nor by me :) > What >>>>> we suggested is to let the user enter the URL name and title. >>>>> >>>>> Actually and to be more precise what I was suggesting was to continue > to >>>>> let the user enter the title but to show the generated URL as it’s > done >>> in >>>>> AWM. And, importantly to allow the user to change the last part of the >>> URL >>>>> (it would change the page name). >>>>> >>>>>> That's why we display these options just for advanced and >>>>>> long-time users of XWiki, since they are used to the concepts. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Yes but URLs don't need an advanced user to understand the concept > and I >>>>> agree with Vishal that we’re now causing a very large number of pages > to >>>>> have %25 in their URLs by default which is quite bad… Of course > someone >>> can >>>>> spend their time monitoring what users are doing and renaming pages >>>>> thereafter or educate their users to do that but we’re not helping and >>>>> we’re making it difficult. >>>>> >>>> >>>> If your web site is not in English then you're forced to use special >>>> characters like diacritics which makes it hard to avoid URL encoded >>>> characters (the browser location bar displays the URL nicely but if you >>>> copy the URL the result is not nice). >>> >>> Agreed. So I’d say it’s even more important to allow the user to be able >>> to easily view and change the resulting URL when they’re not in English. >>> >>> Thanks >>> -Vincent >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> ----- >>>>>> >>>>>> IMO what you are describing is advanced user behavior. Normal users >>> don't >>>>>> generally care about their URLs and SEO. >>>>> >>>>> I don’t fully agree with you. I have the feeling (can’t prove it) > that a >>>>> good number of our users care about the generated URLs. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Also I think that simple users may care about URL without being > advanced >>>>> users. Making them advanced users will expose them to a lot more >>> complexity >>>>> than they need to know. >>>>> >>>>>> But the beauty of XWiki is that >>>>>> you can customize it locally to perfectly match your needs. >>>>> >>>>> That’s not exactly true (and it’s far from being easy, just check >>>>> createinline.vm): It means overriding large portions of vm code and >>> having >>>>> to do manual merges whenever you upgrade. A major PITA. >>>>> >>>>>> Vincent mentioned something about AWM. I don't see much difference > from >>>>> the >>>>>> Create Page. We generate the names from title here too. We display > them >>>>> in >>>>>> the breadcrumb, but in a more simple way. Displaying the >>>>> "localhost"/server >>>>>> part is not simple user behavior. AWM is more complex. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- >>>>>> >>>>>> So I would not change anything on the product side, since I believe >>> these >>>>>> should be solved as custom changes for your instance. >>>>>> We want to encourage users to use page titles (with spaces in them >>> since >>>>>> they are more readable and supported), while we are preserving the > page >>>>>> name behavior for advances users (but we don't enforce it). >>>>> >>>>> I don’t agree with this sentence: We definitely don’t want to > encourage >>>>> users to use titles in URLs. >>>>> >>>>>> If users made >>>>>> mistakes they can always change the title or rename the page. >>>>>> On the product side the only change I would like us to do is using > the >>>>> URL >>>>>> naming, but this was debated in the past and dropped for Vincent's >>>>> reasons. >>>>> >>>>> What reasons, I don’t remember a discussion about using URL name > instead >>>>> of page name? >>>>> >>>>> So our main disagreement is that I consider that favouring encoded >>>>> characters in URLs is not a good thing while you think it’s not a > large >>>>> enough problem to do something about it. >>>>> >>>>> Would it make our UI too complex to use for simple users if we were >>>>> showing a URL and the ability to change the last part of it? IMO > what’s >>>>> complex is when we have Page name and Page Title. But I don’t feel >>> there’d >>>>> be confusion between URL and Page title. >>>>> >>>>> What do others think? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> -Vincent >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Caty >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 11:57 PM, Vincent Massol &lt;vincent(a)massol.net >> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 20 Apr 2017, at 22:51, Vincent Massol &lt;vincent(a)massol.net&gt; > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Vishal, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ok, I misunderstood you in your first email. I understood the >>> opposite. >>>>>>> I thought you were complaining that have 2 notions (page name + page >>>>> title) >>>>>>> was confusing but it’s actually the opposite! What you find > confusing >>> is >>>>>>> the fact that it’s not easy for your users to set both the page name >>> and >>>>>>> page titles! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It’s funny (or not :)) since this is exactly what we had in past >>>>>>> versions of XWiki and we had several complaints that it was > confusing >>> to >>>>>>> have the 2 notions and this is why he hid the page name only for >>>>> advanced >>>>>>> users. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Actually, if I remember well, what we were doing was to ask for the >>> page >>>>>>> name and we were setting the title to the same as the page name by >>>>> default >>>>>>> and then the user could edit the title before saving the page. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We’ve now done the opposite (user deciding on the title and page > name >>>>>>> being derived from it) but leading to the issue you’re raising about >>> URL >>>>>>> SEO… >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>> -Vincent >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> See below. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 20 Apr 2017, at 14:20, Vishal &lt;thewikinoteorg(a)gmail.com&gt; > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks Vincent for your thorough reply.. >>>>>>>>> You guessed it right. We intend to have clean and short urls for > SEO >>>>>>>>> reasons. >>>>>>>>> Current scheme creates two problems: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 1) The Page name is fetched automatically from the Title. Often > the >>>>>>> titles >>>>>>>>> have spaces which translate as *percent characters *in url which >>> makes >>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> somewhat unclean :) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Indeed you’re right. By hiding the page name we’re now incitating > to >>>>>>> have longer URLs and encoded characters showing up in URLs which is >>> not >>>>>>> nice I agree. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Maybe one solution is to do something similar to what we do in AWM, >>>>> i.e. >>>>>>> generate automatically the URL from the title entered by the user > and >>>>> show >>>>>>> the resulting URL to the user and give the user the opportunity to >>>>> change >>>>>>> the URL. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> See http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Extension/ >>>>>>> App%20Within%20Minutes%20Application/AppWithinMinutes-Step1.png >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2) Secondly, to have the shorter url, we use only the short forms > of >>>>>>>>> complete title. >>>>>>>>> Ex. For title 'Pune University' we use name PU. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hey, you’re from Pune? :) I’ve been there about 15 times! That was >>> in a >>>>>>> previous job where my company and KPIT Cummins were partners. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Otherwise in this hierarchy of pages, the url would be much > longer. >>>>>>>>> Ex. We have page 'Electronics and Telecommunications' branch under >>>>> page >>>>>>>>> 'Pune University'. We should not have such a long url. Instead > here >>> we >>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>> PU/ENTC or Pune-University/ENTC >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To avoid all this, what we currently do: >>>>>>>>> 1) On create page dialog, use PU as title.. This will create url > as >>>>> PU. >>>>>>>>> If full name is used here as title, we need to use - instead of >>> spaces >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> avoid percent characters in url. >>>>>>>>> 2) While in edit mode, change the title back to Pune University. >>>>> Remove >>>>>>> any >>>>>>>>> - characters to make title clean. >>>>>>>>> This is where confusion creeps in. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If these two terms create confusion, why I need to show them both: >>>>>>>>> I guess the *confusion is due to term Name*. It doesn't reflect >>> actual >>>>>>> usage >>>>>>>>> of the term. URL or weblink or link or web address would be more > apt >>>>>>> terms >>>>>>>>> to use to instead of Name. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regarding Page name vs Page URL. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A bit of history: The reason we used page name and not page URL >>>>>>> originally is because what the user is creating is a document in the >>>>>>> database and initially it was called Document Name. Since that was a >>> bit >>>>>>> confusing for users, we had decided to call it Page Name. It just >>>>> happened >>>>>>> that the URL used was directly derived from the document/page name. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In practice the 3 concepts could have different values: >>>>>>>> * a value for the document’s name in the DB >>>>>>>> * another value for the document’s title >>>>>>>> * yet another value used in the URL. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We’ve had discussions so that we could let the user provide shorter >>>>> URLs >>>>>>> for pages in the future. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now for the time being and since we don’t have this ATM, I think I >>>>> agree >>>>>>> with you that we could decide to display to the user the URL that > will >>>>> be >>>>>>> generated (the encoded URL) and allow the user to change it. >>> Internally >>>>> the >>>>>>> user would change the document name. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My users can differentiate between Title and URL. But the whole >>>>>>> procedure we >>>>>>>>> follow is certainly not understandable by all. And we definitely >>> need >>>>> to >>>>>>>>> follow this whole long procedure, just to have short and clean > urls. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes, if you’re asking your users to care about the URLs that get >>>>>>> generated, right now they need to be advanced users to be able to > edit >>>>> the >>>>>>> page name in the Create Page UI (since changing the title afterwards >>> is >>>>> too >>>>>>> cumbersome). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So, by showing both fields at the first place itself, I would like >>> to >>>>>>>>> shorten the procedure and url length. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I’m in agreement with you. Let’s see what others think. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for this interesting discussion! >>>>>>>> -Vincent >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> View this message in context: http://xwiki.475771.n2.nabble. >>>>>>> com/Page-Title-and-Name-confusion-tp7603546p7603551.html >>>>>>>>> Sent from the XWiki- Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>> >>> > >