6 Apr
2007
6 Apr
'07
5:16 a.m.
Guillaume Lerouge wrote:
Hi Uwe,
I think the easiest way right now for you to get those rights and the
right
interface (the 1.0, not the old one which is still default on the farm)
would be to give us the address of the XWiki you are using so that we can
give it a look and help you a bit more effectively.
I am ok to do that, I will have some time tomorrow if you need a hand to
switch to the new skin and start doing some basic stuff.
>Guillaume, I am excited about your help if I just knew what exactly are
you
helping with?
On the "philosophical" side, I would say that XWiki's gut compared with
most
other wikis lie in the fact that you can create cookie cutters
and you do not need to cut all your cookies by hand.
A successful app is therefore first an application that has a well-defined
aim (ie, "I want to use a wiki as a contact manager in my company") and
then
one which builds on the tools and interface provided by XWiki to achieve
this aim more effectively than a traditional wiki would.
What does the object model provides you with? Basically, a way to automate
template duplication and modification. XWiki lets you separate form and
content, a bit like the distinction between html and css. You can let the
actual content to end-users and take care of the layout.
You can create elements that will operate on specific subsets (eg, only a
given value in the pages of a given space) to provide users with effective
ways to browse through content: for instance, a search searching only for
elements in FAQ objects in the FAQ space, or only in the content of
answers
field and not in the content of questions field for instance, which would
be
impossible with a standard wiki. Currently, learning how to do so depends
on
the availability of existing code... I think we can progressively change
this together.
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thanks for the introduction, we need to get some
crisp description out,
elevator speech like, let's pick up our idea of a use case page on the
wiki idea page, I'd like to defer any discussion about that to the idea
page, if yo don't mind.
As regards the documentation, right now it depends on user like you and
me,
who have the time and motivation to document new things as they come by
them.
> See that is what I can't really agree
with. I am still an engineer and
> think in concepts. I am not going to spend much time on figuring out how
> to put a nail in the beam with what hammer by asking the carpenter how
> he does it or worse try it myself WITHOUT asking the architect, how the
> house should be build and what this particular hammer or nail creates
> in terms of benefits. If any hammer or nail is good then fine too.
> Making sense?
The object/date model for the main constructs $doc, $xwiki,
$context and
others are critical and key objects as I understand and should be
explained first including their methods.
I am not sure any "general framework" or whatever would be that useful
here. It is more about everybody taking small, incremental steps, say 5
minutes a day to improve a page, add useful comments to the wiki and so
on.
> I agree that for incremental additions you
create incremental
> descriptions, I am at the root, I am looking at the API doc and see a
> lot of words w/o clear concept. If I start documenting this
> incrementally, I will delete as many of my comments as I add because I
> have to learn it the hard way and have incremental light bulbs coming
> on. I like a bigger light bulb in the beginning in more efficient way
> much better by having some time with one of the star archtects amongs
> the users/developers to make substantial progress.
I have started trying to do that, adding a FAQ, an application page, a
reference and so on when I could.
Hopefully if the wiki way paradigm holds any truth we should end up with
an
amazing, Wikipedia-like database of our own that would tell all the
secrets
of XWiki. My take is, let's give it a try and we'll see what happens next
:-)
Guillaume
PS: I do not mean to say that the killer app discussed before is not a
good
idea, only that (as I think Brian made the point earlier) it is easier to
spare 5 minutes than 5 hours to work on XWiki.org...
On 05/04/07, Sergiu Dumitriu <sergiu.dumitriu(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Well said!
You can ask the developers for assistance whenever you have difficulties
understanding something.
Sergiu
On 4/5/07, Oova < ping.scan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
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Guys,
I must be another breed, I barely follow you, 'these' users and 'those'
users, automatically generated comment pages for users to fill it out,
etc..... I am just lost or too old fashioned.
My humble opinion is as follows. In house building as in software, if
you
want to enable somebody else to build an application (house) you give
them a
description, what kind of particular applications (houses) you
especially
are qualified to help building FASTER and BETTER than usual (Benefits
overview and tools to gain those benefits). You also write, what kind
of
skill set might be useful to take advantage of the tools your provide.
Then
you provide the architecture (blueprint, ....) and explain what kind of
interfaces (for walls, windows, plumbing, roofing,...) you created to
enable
others to build. To expedite the break-in you give some sample
applications
illustrating how the architecture, interfaces and tools helped gain the
benefits for some use cases. And I am sorry, no offense, you do not ask
the
engineer who designed the software kit/ housing builder kit do document
it,
otherwise it becomes a kit from highly skilled engineers for other
highly
skilled engineers written in a highly specialized technise language,
which
the target audience might not speak. You normally ask a guinea pig out
of
the targeted audience to try to document, what it understands and let
it
build at least one application (house) using the
tools provided. And
you
nurture the guinea pig with enough food, encouragement and help, so the
snowball effect making the whole target audience aware of your great
stuff
can start and you as the engineer can go back cranking out the next
great SW
and tool for even better applications and houses. Making sense? Any
agreement?
I am a guinea pig, I am eager to use Xwiki, because for some reason, I
think
XWiki is a great concept (don't let me go into the 'Crossing the chasm
modeling, or the 4 steps of the epiphany', both great models of how to
establish innovation in the market place successfully and go beyond the
innovator's initial excitement). But you need to let the targeted
audience
pick-up the momentum.
Enough Philosophy, if there is any agreement on what I said before, let
me,
Guillaume and other 'users' spread the word in a lower level technise.
To
enable us we need to understand
- targeted user (groups)
- architecture
- concept of object model and API
- guts (and not only nice webpages) of successful applications of the
XWiki
(or is the XWikis main purpose to create nice looking webpages? I did
not
think so)
Uwe
THOMAS, BRIAN M (ATTSI) wrote:
haven't
>
> I wish this were true... I don't think a second that it'll
> work though as:
> 1) users will say that they cannot document if they don't
> know what it does
> 2) once users know what it does, they usually go away
> 3) users don't like to document anymore than developers like it
>
> :)
Your points are generally true, but when you talk of "users" you're
not
necessarily talking of these users. I'm
talking about people like me
who would have loved it if someone had just told them this or that
little tidbit of information, and gladly contribute it, especially
when
> it's in the context of the document
>
>> But I like the idea... and would be game to try it... if
>> someone else implements it... (all my time is currently used
>> for the 1.0
>> release)
>>
>
> The only reason I haven't already made a start of it is that I found an
HTML DOM parser. Is there one in the myriad of libraries
that
come with XWiki?