14 May
2009
14 May
'09
11:01 a.m.
Hi there,
Right now the new WYSIWYG editor allows us to create simple lists like
the following:
----------8<----------
* plants
* animals
** invertebrates
** vertebrates
---------->8----------
By pressing just Enter when the caret is inside a list item we create a
new list item. This is the basic mechanism. It's simple and it should
remain so.
If I want to make the previous list a bit more complex:
----------8<----------
* (((= Plants =
Plants are living organisms belonging to the kingdom Plantae.)))
* (((= Animals =
Animals are a major group of mostly multicellular, eukaryotic organisms
of the kingdom Animalia or Metazoa.
They are divided into:)))
** (((== Invertebrates ==
An invertebrate is an animal lacking a vertebral column.)))
** (((== Vertebrates ==
Vertebrates are members of the subphylum Vertebrata, chordates with
backbones or spinal columns.)))
---------->8----------
I have to be able to insert new lines inside a list item using the Enter
key but without creating a new list item. Let's consider the following
state:
----------8<----------
* (((= Plants =)))
---------->8----------
We have a level 1 heading inside a list item. The caret is inside the
heading, at the end. Pressing Enter can have the following three outcomes:
1. Continue editing in the heading, but on a new line:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1
x =)))
---------->8----------
2. Continue editing in the same list item but after the heading, in a
paragraph:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1 =
x)))
---------->8----------
3. Create a new list item:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1 =)))
* x
---------->8----------
For the first outcome I think we all agree that the user has to press
Shift+Enter. For the second and third outcomes I see two options:
A) Enter for 2 and CTRL/META+Enter for 3
B) Enter for 3 and CTRL/META+Enter for 2
(if you see any other options please step up)
I'm +1 for A) for the following reason: if the user has inserted a
heading in a list item then he will surely want to add more content
after that heading, thus pressing just Enter is the natural way of doing
this. From a technical POV the caret is first inside a heading and then
inside a list item so the heading should have the priority of handling
the Enter key.
NOTE: Choosing A) or B) doesn't affect the way simple lists are created,
which is using just Enter.
Please cast your votes and sorry for the long mail,
Marius
14 May
14 May
11:06 a.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] [xwiki-devs] [VOTE] Creating complex lists with the new WYSIWYG editor
You can follow a discussion on this topic between be and Guillaume here
http://jira.xwiki.org/jira/browse/XWIKI-3773
Thanks,
Marius
Marius Dumitru Florea wrote:
Hi there,
Right now the new WYSIWYG editor allows us to create simple lists like
the following:
----------8<----------
* plants
* animals
** invertebrates
** vertebrates
---------->8----------
By pressing just Enter when the caret is inside a list item we create a
new list item. This is the basic mechanism. It's simple and it should
remain so.
If I want to make the previous list a bit more complex:
----------8<----------
* (((= Plants =
Plants are living organisms belonging to the kingdom Plantae.)))
* (((= Animals =
Animals are a major group of mostly multicellular, eukaryotic organisms
of the kingdom Animalia or Metazoa.
They are divided into:)))
** (((== Invertebrates ==
An invertebrate is an animal lacking a vertebral column.)))
** (((== Vertebrates ==
Vertebrates are members of the subphylum Vertebrata, chordates with
backbones or spinal columns.)))
---------->8----------
I have to be able to insert new lines inside a list item using the Enter
key but without creating a new list item. Let's consider the following
state:
----------8<----------
* (((= Plants =)))
---------->8----------
We have a level 1 heading inside a list item. The caret is inside the
heading, at the end. Pressing Enter can have the following three outcomes:
1. Continue editing in the heading, but on a new line:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1
x =)))
---------->8----------
2. Continue editing in the same list item but after the heading, in a
paragraph:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1 =
x)))
---------->8----------
3. Create a new list item:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1 =)))
* x
---------->8----------
For the first outcome I think we all agree that the user has to press
Shift+Enter. For the second and third outcomes I see two options:
A) Enter for 2 and CTRL/META+Enter for 3
B) Enter for 3 and CTRL/META+Enter for 2
(if you see any other options please step up)
I'm +1 for A) for the following reason: if the user has inserted a
heading in a list item then he will surely want to add more content
after that heading, thus pressing just Enter is the natural way of doing
this. From a technical POV the caret is first inside a heading and then
inside a list item so the heading should have the priority of handling
the Enter key.
NOTE: Choosing A) or B) doesn't affect the way simple lists are created,
which is using just Enter.
Please cast your votes and sorry for the long mail,
Marius
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
12:11 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] [VOTE] Creating complex lists with the new WYSIWYG editor
On May 14, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Marius Dumitru Florea wrote:
Hi there,
Right now the new WYSIWYG editor allows us to create simple lists like
the following:
----------8<----------
* plants
* animals
** invertebrates
** vertebrates
---------->8----------
By pressing just Enter when the caret is inside a list item we
create a
new list item. This is the basic mechanism. It's simple and it should
remain so.
If I want to make the previous list a bit more complex:
----------8<----------
* (((= Plants =
Plants are living organisms belonging to the kingdom Plantae.)))
* (((= Animals =
Animals are a major group of mostly multicellular, eukaryotic
organisms
of the kingdom Animalia or Metazoa.
They are divided into:)))
** (((== Invertebrates ==
An invertebrate is an animal lacking a vertebral column.)))
** (((== Vertebrates ==
Vertebrates are members of the subphylum Vertebrata, chordates with
backbones or spinal columns.)))
---------->8----------
I have to be able to insert new lines inside a list item using the
Enter
key but without creating a new list item. Let's consider the following
state:
----------8<----------
* (((= Plants =)))
---------->8----------
We have a level 1 heading inside a list item. The caret is inside the
heading, at the end. Pressing Enter can have the following three
outcomes:
1. Continue editing in the heading, but on a new line:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1
x =)))
---------->8----------
2. Continue editing in the same list item but after the heading, in a
paragraph:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1 =
x)))
---------->8----------
3. Create a new list item:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1 =)))
* x
---------->8----------
For the first outcome I think we all agree that the user has to press
Shift+Enter. For the second and third outcomes I see two options:
A) Enter for 2 and CTRL/META+Enter for 3
B) Enter for 3 and CTRL/META+Enter for 2
(if you see any other options please step up)
I don't think we need META.
I'd go with the simplest:
* when inside a group, use the normal enter behavior for the
underlying element. If you're in a header then enter create a new
paragraph, etc)
* you need to position the cursor after the group in the list item and
press enter to get a new list item
Note: another solution could allow to get out of the group by pressing
tab but we said we wanted to keep the standard browser tab behavior.
If we really want to introduce a new META+Enter then I'd definitely
vote +1 for A).
BTW how are groups represented visually in the editor? Maybe this is
the real problem?
Thanks
-Vincent
I'm +1 for A) for the following reason: if the user has inserted a
heading in a list item then he will surely want to add more content
after that heading, thus pressing just Enter is the natural way of
doing
this. From a technical POV the caret is first inside a heading and
then
inside a list item so the heading should have the priority of handling
the Enter key.
NOTE: Choosing A) or B) doesn't affect the way simple lists are
created,
which is using just Enter.
Please cast your votes and sorry for the long mail,
Marius
12:47 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] [xwiki-devs] [VOTE] Creating complex lists with the new WYSIWYG editor
Hi Vincent,
Vincent Massol wrote:
On May 14, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Marius Dumitru Florea
wrote:
The problem is that the list item wraps the group and there's no (easy)
way to place the caret after the group but in the list item. In fact the
WYSIWYG editor is not aware of a group: it simply sees a list item with
content inside. But since the caret is inside a heading the Enter key is
treated accordingly, even if the heading is inside a list item. That's
why I think we need a META+Enter to be able to get out of the list item.
Hi there,
Right now the new WYSIWYG editor allows us to create simple lists like
the following:
----------8<----------
* plants
* animals
** invertebrates
** vertebrates
---------->8----------
By pressing just Enter when the caret is inside a list item we
create a
new list item. This is the basic mechanism. It's simple and it should
remain so.
If I want to make the previous list a bit more complex:
----------8<----------
* (((= Plants =
Plants are living organisms belonging to the kingdom Plantae.)))
* (((= Animals =
Animals are a major group of mostly multicellular, eukaryotic
organisms
of the kingdom Animalia or Metazoa.
They are divided into:)))
** (((== Invertebrates ==
An invertebrate is an animal lacking a vertebral column.)))
** (((== Vertebrates ==
Vertebrates are members of the subphylum Vertebrata, chordates with
backbones or spinal columns.)))
---------->8----------
I have to be able to insert new lines inside a list item using the
Enter
key but without creating a new list item. Let's consider the following
state:
----------8<----------
* (((= Plants =)))
---------->8----------
We have a level 1 heading inside a list item. The caret is inside the
heading, at the end. Pressing Enter can have the following three
outcomes:
1. Continue editing in the heading, but on a new line:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1
x =)))
---------->8----------
2. Continue editing in the same list item but after the heading, in a
paragraph:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1 =
x)))
---------->8----------
3. Create a new list item:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1 =)))
* x
---------->8----------
For the first outcome I think we all agree that the user has to press
Shift+Enter. For the second and third outcomes I see two options:
A) Enter for 2 and CTRL/META+Enter for 3
B) Enter for 3 and CTRL/META+Enter for 2
(if you see any other options please step up)
I don't think we need META.
I'd go with the simplest:
* when inside a group, use the normal enter behavior for the
underlying element. If you're in a header then enter create a new
paragraph, etc)
* you need to position the cursor after the group in the list item and
press enter to get a new list item
Note: another solution could allow to get out of the group by pressing
tab but we said we wanted to keep the standard browser tab behavior.
I don't see how we could use the Tab key.
If we really want to introduce a new META+Enter then I'd definitely
vote +1 for A).
BTW how are groups represented visually in the editor? Maybe this is
the real problem?
Groups are not represented visually in a special way. As I said, the
editor is not aware of them right now. I don't see how drawing a border
around the group would help (through CSS). Also, in this case the XWiki
2.0 syntax user is forced to use the group notation in order to add
complex content inside a list item because there's no other means of
doing this so I don't think he would expect to see a border around the
content in the WYSIWYG editor.
Thanks,
Marius
Thanks
-Vincent
I'm +1 for A) for the following reason: if the user has inserted a
heading in a list item then he will surely want to add more content
after that heading, thus pressing just Enter is the natural way of
doing
this. From a technical POV the caret is first inside a heading and
then
inside a list item so the heading should have the priority of handling
the Enter key.
NOTE: Choosing A) or B) doesn't affect the way simple lists are
created,
which is using just Enter.
Please cast your votes and sorry for the long mail,
Marius
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
1:12 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] [xwiki-devs] [VOTE] Creating complex lists with the new WYSIWYG editor
On May 14, 2009, at 12:47 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea wrote:
I don't agree. For your description above of the different uses case
you *do* want to differentiate where you're inside a group or not
since the behaviors are not the same. So it makes sense to me to have
some visual clue of a group so that the user knows what behavior he'll
get.
Thanks
-Vincent
Hi Vincent,
Vincent Massol wrote:
That's why I suggested a visual way to identify the group so it's easy
to see if the caret is inside or outside the group (ie. before the </
div> or after).
On May 14, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Marius Dumitru
Florea wrote:
The problem is that the list item wraps the group and there's no
(easy)
way to place the caret after the group but in the list item. Hi there,
Right now the new WYSIWYG editor allows us to create simple lists
like
the following:
----------8<----------
* plants
* animals
** invertebrates
** vertebrates
---------->8----------
By pressing just Enter when the caret is inside a list item we
create a
new list item. This is the basic mechanism. It's simple and it
should
remain so.
If I want to make the previous list a bit more complex:
----------8<----------
* (((= Plants =
Plants are living organisms belonging to the kingdom Plantae.)))
* (((= Animals =
Animals are a major group of mostly multicellular, eukaryotic
organisms
of the kingdom Animalia or Metazoa.
They are divided into:)))
** (((== Invertebrates ==
An invertebrate is an animal lacking a vertebral column.)))
** (((== Vertebrates ==
Vertebrates are members of the subphylum Vertebrata, chordates with
backbones or spinal columns.)))
---------->8----------
I have to be able to insert new lines inside a list item using the
Enter
key but without creating a new list item. Let's consider the
following
state:
----------8<----------
* (((= Plants =)))
---------->8----------
We have a level 1 heading inside a list item. The caret is inside
the
heading, at the end. Pressing Enter can have the following three
outcomes:
1. Continue editing in the heading, but on a new line:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1
x =)))
---------->8----------
2. Continue editing in the same list item but after the heading,
in a
paragraph:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1 =
x)))
---------->8----------
3. Create a new list item:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1 =)))
* x
---------->8----------
For the first outcome I think we all agree that the user has to
press
Shift+Enter. For the second and third outcomes I see two options:
A) Enter for 2 and CTRL/META+Enter for 3
B) Enter for 3 and CTRL/META+Enter for 2
(if you see any other options please step up)
I don't think we need META.
I'd go with the simplest:
* when inside a group, use the normal enter behavior for the
underlying element. If you're in a header then enter create a new
paragraph, etc)
* you need to position the cursor after the group in the list item
and
press enter to get a new list item In fact the
WYSIWYG editor is not aware of a group: it simply sees a list item
with
content inside. But since the caret is inside a heading the Enter
key is
treated accordingly, even if the heading is inside a list item. That's
why I think we need a META+Enter to be able to get out of the list
item.
It would have the same effect as your META+Enter and would go to the
next list item for example. But again since we don't want to us Tab
it's moot.
Note: another solution could allow to get out of the group by
pressing
tab but we said we wanted to keep the standard browser tab behavior.
I don't see how we could use the Tab key. If we really
want to introduce a new META+Enter then I'd definitely
vote +1 for A).
BTW how are groups represented visually in the editor? Maybe this is
the real problem?
Groups are not represented visually in a special way. As I said, the
editor is not aware of them right now. I don't see how drawing a
border
around the group would help (through CSS). Also, in this case the
XWiki
2.0 syntax user is forced to use the group notation in order to add
complex content inside a list item because there's no other means of
doing this so I don't think he would expect to see a border around the
content in the WYSIWYG editor. Thanks,
Marius
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>>
>> I'm +1 for A) for the following reason: if the user has inserted a
>> heading in a list item then he will surely want to add more content
>> after that heading, thus pressing just Enter is the natural way of
>> doing
>> this. From a technical POV the caret is first inside a heading and
>> then
>> inside a list item so the heading should have the priority of
>> handling
>> the Enter key.
>>
>> NOTE: Choosing A) or B) doesn't affect the way simple lists are
>> created,
>> which is using just Enter.
>>
>> Please cast your votes and sorry for the long mail,
>> Marius
2:26 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] [xwiki-devs] [VOTE] Creating complex lists with the new WYSIWYG editor
Hi,
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
On May 14, 2009, at 12:47 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea wrote:
I don't agree. For your description above of the different uses case
you *do* want to differentiate where you're inside a group or not
since the behaviors are not the same. So it makes sense to me to have
some visual clue of a group so that the user knows what behavior he'll
get.
Well, there is no representation of a group per se in the WYSIWYG (you don't
have a visual clue as to whether the caret is **here|** or **here**| ) and
since you don't know where you are you can't get the caret in / out of the
group using the left / right arrow keys.
I'm not aware of any WYSIWYG editor that has such a way of displaying where
exactly the caret is in relation to groups (either in desktop or web WYSIWYG
editors). Additionally, I'm not sure we want to go into this direction since
it poses numerous UI & technical issues.
I've tested the behavior of OpenOffice Writer and it's the following: when a
list item is also a heading, hitting enter when the caret is at the end of
the line gets the caret out of the list and creates a new paragraph. In
DekiWiki, hitting enter when the caret is at the end of the heading item
creates a new list item.
As I pointed it out in the JIRA comment, the most common behavior will be
for users to expect a new list item to be created when they hit the enter
key, whatever the content located in the list item. If we implement A) ,
users will have no clue about what they need to do to get out of the list if
they put a heading in a list since they won't know about CTRL/META + ENTER.
Choosing A) would result in making the most intuitive / most used option
hard to reach. I really don't think that's what we want.
Thus I'm strongly in favor of B) Enter for 3 and CTRL/META+Enter for 2
Guillaume
Hi Vincent,
Vincent Massol wrote:
That's why I suggested a visual way to identify the group so it's easy
to see if the caret is inside or outside the group (ie. before the </
div> or after).
On May 14, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Marius Dumitru
Florea wrote:
The problem is that the list item wraps the group and there's no
(easy)
way to place the caret after the group but in the list item. Hi there,
Right now the new WYSIWYG editor allows us to create simple lists
like
the following:
----------8<----------
* plants
* animals
** invertebrates
** vertebrates
---------->8----------
By pressing just Enter when the caret is inside a list item we
create a
new list item. This is the basic mechanism. It's simple and it
should
remain so.
If I want to make the previous list a bit more complex:
----------8<----------
* (((= Plants =
Plants are living organisms belonging to the kingdom Plantae.)))
* (((= Animals =
Animals are a major group of mostly multicellular, eukaryotic
organisms
of the kingdom Animalia or Metazoa.
They are divided into:)))
** (((== Invertebrates ==
An invertebrate is an animal lacking a vertebral column.)))
** (((== Vertebrates ==
Vertebrates are members of the subphylum Vertebrata, chordates with
backbones or spinal columns.)))
---------->8----------
I have to be able to insert new lines inside a list item using the
Enter
key but without creating a new list item. Let's consider the
following
state:
----------8<----------
* (((= Plants =)))
---------->8----------
We have a level 1 heading inside a list item. The caret is inside
the
heading, at the end. Pressing Enter can have the following three
outcomes:
1. Continue editing in the heading, but on a new line:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1
x =)))
---------->8----------
2. Continue editing in the same list item but after the heading,
in a
paragraph:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1 =
x)))
---------->8----------
3. Create a new list item:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1 =)))
* x
---------->8----------
For the first outcome I think we all agree that the user has to
press
Shift+Enter. For the second and third outcomes I see two options:
A) Enter for 2 and CTRL/META+Enter for 3
B) Enter for 3 and CTRL/META+Enter for 2
(if you see any other options please step up)
I don't think we need META.
I'd go with the simplest:
* when inside a group, use the normal enter behavior for the
underlying element. If you're in a header then enter create a new
paragraph, etc)
* you need to position the cursor after the group in the list item
and
press enter to get a new list item In fact the
WYSIWYG editor is not aware of a group: it simply sees a list item
with
content inside. But since the caret is inside a heading the Enter
key is
treated accordingly, even if the heading is inside a list item. That's
why I think we need a META+Enter to be able to get out of the list
item.
It would have the same effect as your META+Enter and would go to the
next list item for example. But again since we don't want to us Tab
it's moot.
Note: another solution could allow to get out of the group by
pressing
tab but we said we wanted to keep the standard browser tab behavior.
I don't see how we could use the Tab key. If we
really want to introduce a new META+Enter then I'd definitely
vote +1 for A).
BTW how are groups represented visually in the editor? Maybe this is
the real problem?
Groups are not represented visually in a special way. As I said, the
editor is not aware of them right now. I don't see how drawing a
border
around the group would help (through CSS). Also, in this case the
XWiki
2.0 syntax user is forced to use the group notation in order to add
complex content inside a list item because there's no other means of
doing this so I don't think he would expect to see a border around the
content in the WYSIWYG editor. Thanks
-Vincent
--
Guillaume Lerouge
Product Manager - XWiki
Skype ID : wikibc
http://guillaumelerouge.com/
Thanks,
Marius
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>>
>> I'm +1 for A) for the following reason: if the user has inserted a
>> heading in a list item then he will surely want to add more content
>> after that heading, thus pressing just Enter is the natural way of
>> doing
>> this. From a technical POV the caret is first inside a heading and
>> then
>> inside a list item so the heading should have the priority of
>> handling
>> the Enter key.
>>
>> NOTE: Choosing A) or B) doesn't affect the way simple lists are
>> created,
>> which is using just Enter.
>>
>> Please cast your votes and sorry for the long mail,
>> Marius
_______________________________________________
users mailing list
users(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
2:45 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] [xwiki-devs] [VOTE] Creating complex lists with the new WYSIWYG editor
Guillaume Lerouge wrote:
Hi,
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
I fully agree with you Guillaume on this.
On May 14, 2009, at 12:47 PM, Marius Dumitru
Florea wrote:
I don't agree. For your description above of
the different uses case
you *do* want to differentiate where you're inside a group or not
since the behaviors are not the same. So it makes sense to me to have
some visual clue of a group so that the user knows what behavior he'll
get.
Well, there is no representation of a group per se in the WYSIWYG (you don't
have a visual clue as to whether the caret is **here|** or **here**| ) and
since you don't know where you are you can't get the caret in / out of the
group using the left / right arrow keys.
I'm not aware of any WYSIWYG editor that has such a way of displaying where
exactly the caret is in relation to groups (either in desktop or web WYSIWYG
editors). Additionally, I'm not sure we want to go into this direction since
it poses numerous UI & technical issues. Hi Vincent,
Vincent Massol wrote:
That's why I
suggested a visual way to identify the group so it's easy
to see if the caret is inside or outside the group (ie. before the </
div> or after).
On May 14, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Marius Dumitru
Florea wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> Right now the new WYSIWYG editor allows us to create simple lists
> like
> the following:
>
> ----------8<----------
> * plants
> * animals
> ** invertebrates
> ** vertebrates
> ---------->8----------
>
> By pressing just Enter when the caret is inside a list item we
> create a
> new list item. This is the basic mechanism. It's simple and it
> should
> remain so.
>
> If I want to make the previous list a bit more complex:
>
> ----------8<----------
> * (((= Plants =
>
> Plants are living organisms belonging to the kingdom Plantae.)))
> * (((= Animals =
>
> Animals are a major group of mostly multicellular, eukaryotic
> organisms
> of the kingdom Animalia or Metazoa.
>
> They are divided into:)))
> ** (((== Invertebrates ==
>
> An invertebrate is an animal lacking a vertebral column.)))
> ** (((== Vertebrates ==
>
> Vertebrates are members of the subphylum Vertebrata, chordates with
> backbones or spinal columns.)))
> ---------->8----------
>
> I have to be able to insert new lines inside a list item using the
> Enter
> key but without creating a new list item. Let's consider the
> following
> state:
>
> ----------8<----------
> * (((= Plants =)))
> ---------->8----------
>
> We have a level 1 heading inside a list item. The caret is inside
> the
> heading, at the end. Pressing Enter can have the following three
> outcomes:
>
> 1. Continue editing in the heading, but on a new line:
>
> ----------8<----------
> * (((= Title 1
> x =)))
> ---------->8----------
>
> 2. Continue editing in the same list item but after the heading,
> in a
> paragraph:
>
> ----------8<----------
> * (((= Title 1 =
>
> x)))
> ---------->8----------
>
> 3. Create a new list item:
>
> ----------8<----------
> * (((= Title 1 =)))
> * x
> ---------->8----------
>
> For the first outcome I think we all agree that the user has to
> press
> Shift+Enter. For the second and third outcomes I see two options:
>
> A) Enter for 2 and CTRL/META+Enter for 3
> B) Enter for 3 and CTRL/META+Enter for 2
> (if you see any other options please step up)
I don't think we need META.
I'd go with the simplest:
* when inside a group, use the normal enter behavior for the
underlying element. If you're in a header then enter create a new
paragraph, etc)
* you need to position the cursor after the group in the list item
and
press enter to get a new list item
The problem is that the list item wraps the
group and there's no
(easy)
way to place the caret after the group but in the list item. In fact the
WYSIWYG editor is not aware of a group: it simply sees a list item
with
content inside. But since the caret is inside a heading the Enter
key is
treated accordingly, even if the heading is inside a list item. That's
why I think we need a META+Enter to be able to get out of the list
item.
It would have the same effect as your META+Enter
and would go to the
next list item for example. But again since we don't want to us Tab
it's moot.
Note: another solution could allow to get out of
the group by
pressing
tab but we said we wanted to keep the standard browser tab behavior.
I don't
see how we could use the Tab key. If we
really want to introduce a new META+Enter then I'd definitely
vote +1 for A).
BTW how are groups represented visually in the editor? Maybe this is
the real problem?
Groups are not represented visually in a special way. As I said,
the
editor is not aware of them right now. I don't see how drawing a
border
around the group would help (through CSS). Also, in this case the
XWiki
2.0 syntax user is forced to use the group notation in order to add
complex content inside a list item because there's no other means of
doing this so I don't think he would expect to see a border around the
content in the WYSIWYG editor.
I've tested the behavior of OpenOffice Writer and it's the following: when a
list item is also a heading, hitting enter when the caret is at the end of
the line gets the caret out of the list and creates a new paragraph. In
DekiWiki, hitting enter when the caret is at the end of the heading item
creates a new list item.
As I pointed it out in the JIRA comment, the most common behavior will be
for users to expect a new list item to be created when they hit the enter
key, whatever the content located in the list item. If we implement A) ,
users will have no clue about what they need to do to get out of the list if
they put a heading in a list since they won't know about CTRL/META + ENTER.
Choosing A) would result in making the most intuitive / most used option
hard to reach. I really don't think that's what we want.
Thus I'm strongly in favor of B) Enter for 3 and CTRL/META+Enter for 2
B) is fine for me, although I prefer A). I'd like to see more votes
before implementing one of them.
Thanks,
Marius
Guillaume
Thanks
-Vincent
Thanks,
Marius
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>> I'm +1 for A) for the following reason: if the user has inserted a
>> heading in a list item then he will surely want to add more content
>> after that heading, thus pressing just Enter is the natural way of
>> doing
>> this. From a technical POV the caret is first inside a heading and
>> then
>> inside a list item so the heading should have the priority of
>> handling
>> the Enter key.
>>
>> NOTE: Choosing A) or B) doesn't affect the way simple lists are
>> created,
>> which is using just Enter.
>>
>> Please cast your votes and sorry for the long mail,
>> Marius
_______________________________________________
users mailing list
users(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users
2:48 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] [xwiki-devs] [VOTE] Creating complex lists with the new WYSIWYG editor
Vincent Massol wrote:
I don't agree. For your description above of the different uses case
you *do* want to differentiate where you're inside a group or not
since the behaviors are not the same. So it makes sense to me to have
some visual clue of a group so that the user knows what behavior he'll
get.
Thanks
-Vincent
> Thanks,
> Marius
>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
>>
>>> I'm +1 for A) for the following reason: if the user has inserted a
>>> heading in a list item then he will surely want to add more content
>>> after that heading, thus pressing just Enter is the natural way of
>>> doing
>>> this. From a technical POV the caret is first inside a heading and
>>> then
>>> inside a list item so the heading should have the priority of
>>> handling
>>> the Enter key.
>>>
>>> NOTE: Choosing A) or B) doesn't affect the way simple lists are
>>> created,
>>> which is using just Enter.
>>>
>>> Please cast your votes and sorry for the long mail,
>>> Marius
--
Sergiu Dumitriu
http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
On May 14, 2009, at 12:47 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea
wrote:
And how many simple users won't be confused by this? Groups are
something technical, something related to the structure of the document.
WYSIWYG users don't care about the structure, they care about the
appearance. A box will only confuse them. "Why is there a box here? How
do I make it go away? I don't want this box in my document. This editor
is broken, I'll go buy another wiki."
We should offer a good default. There are ways around such problems for
those ingenious enough. I always have problems like this even when using
MS Office (no, *especially* when using MSO), but I mix in some
copy/paste, and in the end I'll make it work my way.
Hi Vincent,
Vincent Massol wrote:
That's why I suggested a visual way to identify the group so it's easy
to see if the caret is inside or outside the group (ie. before the </
div> or after). On May 14, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Marius Dumitru
Florea wrote:
The problem is that the list item wraps the
group and there's no
(easy)
way to place the caret after the group but in the list item. Hi there,
Right now the new WYSIWYG editor allows us to create simple lists
like
the following:
----------8<----------
* plants
* animals
** invertebrates
** vertebrates
---------->8----------
By pressing just Enter when the caret is inside a list item we
create a
new list item. This is the basic mechanism. It's simple and it
should
remain so.
If I want to make the previous list a bit more complex:
----------8<----------
* (((= Plants =
Plants are living organisms belonging to the kingdom Plantae.)))
* (((= Animals =
Animals are a major group of mostly multicellular, eukaryotic
organisms
of the kingdom Animalia or Metazoa.
They are divided into:)))
** (((== Invertebrates ==
An invertebrate is an animal lacking a vertebral column.)))
** (((== Vertebrates ==
Vertebrates are members of the subphylum Vertebrata, chordates with
backbones or spinal columns.)))
---------->8----------
I have to be able to insert new lines inside a list item using the
Enter
key but without creating a new list item. Let's consider the
following
state:
----------8<----------
* (((= Plants =)))
---------->8----------
We have a level 1 heading inside a list item. The caret is inside
the
heading, at the end. Pressing Enter can have the following three
outcomes:
1. Continue editing in the heading, but on a new line:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1
x =)))
---------->8----------
2. Continue editing in the same list item but after the heading,
in a
paragraph:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1 =
x)))
---------->8----------
3. Create a new list item:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1 =)))
* x
---------->8----------
For the first outcome I think we all agree that the user has to
press
Shift+Enter. For the second and third outcomes I see two options:
A) Enter for 2 and CTRL/META+Enter for 3
B) Enter for 3 and CTRL/META+Enter for 2
(if you see any other options please step up)
I don't think we need META.
I'd go with the simplest:
* when inside a group, use the normal enter behavior for the
underlying element. If you're in a header then enter create a new
paragraph, etc)
* you need to position the cursor after the group in the list item
and
press enter to get a new list item In fact the
WYSIWYG editor is not aware of a group: it simply sees a list item
with
content inside. But since the caret is inside a heading the Enter
key is
treated accordingly, even if the heading is inside a list item. That's
why I think we need a META+Enter to be able to get out of the list
item.
It would have the same effect as your META+Enter and would go to the
next list item for example. But again since we don't want to us Tab
it's moot.
Note: another solution could allow to get out of
the group by
pressing
tab but we said we wanted to keep the standard browser tab behavior.
I don't
see how we could use the Tab key. If we
really want to introduce a new META+Enter then I'd definitely
vote +1 for A).
BTW how are groups represented visually in the editor? Maybe this is
the real problem?
Groups are not represented visually in a special way. As I said,
the
editor is not aware of them right now. I don't see how drawing a
border
around the group would help (through CSS). Also, in this case the
XWiki
2.0 syntax user is forced to use the group notation in order to add
complex content inside a list item because there's no other means of
doing this so I don't think he would expect to see a border around the
content in the WYSIWYG editor.
2:57 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] [VOTE] Creating complex lists with the new WYSIWYG editor
Marius Dumitru Florea wrote:
Hi there,
Right now the new WYSIWYG editor allows us to create simple lists like
the following:
----------8<----------
* plants
* animals
** invertebrates
** vertebrates
---------->8----------
By pressing just Enter when the caret is inside a list item we create a
new list item. This is the basic mechanism. It's simple and it should
remain so.
If I want to make the previous list a bit more complex:
----------8<----------
* (((= Plants =
Plants are living organisms belonging to the kingdom Plantae.)))
* (((= Animals =
Animals are a major group of mostly multicellular, eukaryotic organisms
of the kingdom Animalia or Metazoa.
They are divided into:)))
** (((== Invertebrates ==
An invertebrate is an animal lacking a vertebral column.)))
** (((== Vertebrates ==
Vertebrates are members of the subphylum Vertebrata, chordates with
backbones or spinal columns.)))
---------->8----------
I have to be able to insert new lines inside a list item using the Enter
key but without creating a new list item. Let's consider the following
state:
----------8<----------
* (((= Plants =)))
---------->8----------
We have a level 1 heading inside a list item. The caret is inside the
heading, at the end. Pressing Enter can have the following three outcomes:
1. Continue editing in the heading, but on a new line:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1
x =)))
---------->8----------
2. Continue editing in the same list item but after the heading, in a
paragraph:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1 =
x)))
---------->8----------
3. Create a new list item:
----------8<----------
* (((= Title 1 =)))
* x
---------->8----------
For the first outcome I think we all agree that the user has to press
Shift+Enter. For the second and third outcomes I see two options:
A) Enter for 2 and CTRL/META+Enter for 3
B) Enter for 3 and CTRL/META+Enter for 2
(if you see any other options please step up)
I'm +1 for A) for the following reason: if the user has inserted a
heading in a list item then he will surely want to add more content
after that heading, thus pressing just Enter is the natural way of doing
this. From a technical POV the caret is first inside a heading and then
inside a list item so the heading should have the priority of handling
the Enter key.
NOTE: Choosing A) or B) doesn't affect the way simple lists are created,
which is using just Enter.
Please cast your votes and sorry for the long mail,
Marius
Normally we would choose the most obvious behavior, but here I'd say
that we must choose the least confusing one.
Having "embedded blocks" is something not so common, and users don't
always do things with structure in mind. Most users won't put a title in
the list because they want to make a structured/complex list item, but
because they want a bigger font. So, they will press enter, and then
they won't get a new list item, but a paragraph. So far they always
pressed enter to get a new list item, and suddenly it doesn't work
anymore. If they don't know about Ctrl+Enter, they'll keep adding
content to the list item. The content will be indented, and they don't
seem to be able to outdent it without removing the list item.
Again, users don't think in structure, they think in appearance. Having
a consistent key behavior is the best choice, and so far creating a new
list item is the most consistent behavior.
I vote B).
And we need good documentation for this feature, as otherwise it will be
hidden.
Btw, AFAIR Ctrl+Enter is PageBreak in MSO. Since we don't have
pagebreaks on web, it's OK to reassign this key.
--
Sergiu Dumitriu
http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
3:26 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] [xwiki-devs] [VOTE] Creating complex lists with the new WYSIWYG editor
On May 14, 2009, at 2:26 PM, Guillaume Lerouge wrote:
Hi,
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net>
wrote:
I don't think they're doing it right. The WYMEditor is probably the
closest but I tried it and it doesn't work with tables inside lists
for ex.
http://files.wymeditor.org/wymeditor/trunk/src/examples/01-basic.html
I don't agree with it being confusing but I'm in the minory apparently
so I'll shut up.
On May 14, 2009, at 12:47 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea wrote:
I don't agree. For your description above of the different uses case
you *do* want to differentiate where you're inside a group or not
since the behaviors are not the same. So it makes sense to me to have
some visual clue of a group so that the user knows what behavior
he'll
get.
Well, there is no representation of a group per se in the WYSIWYG
(you don't
have a visual clue as to whether the caret is **here|** or
**here**| ) and
since you don't know where you are you can't get the caret in / out
of the
group using the left / right arrow keys.
I'm not aware of any WYSIWYG editor that has such a way of
displaying where
exactly the caret is in relation to groups (either in desktop or web
WYSIWYG
editors). Hi Vincent,
Vincent Massol wrote:
That's why I suggested a visual way to identify the group so it's
easy
to see if the caret is inside or outside the group (ie. before the </
div> or after).
On May 14, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Marius Dumitru
Florea wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> Right now the new WYSIWYG editor allows us to create simple lists
> like
> the following:
>
> ----------8<----------
> * plants
> * animals
> ** invertebrates
> ** vertebrates
> ---------->8----------
>
> By pressing just Enter when the caret is inside a list item we
> create a
> new list item. This is the basic mechanism. It's simple and it
> should
> remain so.
>
> If I want to make the previous list a bit more complex:
>
> ----------8<----------
> * (((= Plants =
>
> Plants are living organisms belonging to the kingdom Plantae.)))
> * (((= Animals =
>
> Animals are a major group of mostly multicellular, eukaryotic
> organisms
> of the kingdom Animalia or Metazoa.
>
> They are divided into:)))
> ** (((== Invertebrates ==
>
> An invertebrate is an animal lacking a vertebral column.)))
> ** (((== Vertebrates ==
>
> Vertebrates are members of the subphylum Vertebrata, chordates
> with
> backbones or spinal columns.)))
> ---------->8----------
>
> I have to be able to insert new lines inside a list item using the
> Enter
> key but without creating a new list item. Let's consider the
> following
> state:
>
> ----------8<----------
> * (((= Plants =)))
> ---------->8----------
>
> We have a level 1 heading inside a list item. The caret is inside
> the
> heading, at the end. Pressing Enter can have the following three
> outcomes:
>
> 1. Continue editing in the heading, but on a new line:
>
> ----------8<----------
> * (((= Title 1
> x =)))
> ---------->8----------
>
> 2. Continue editing in the same list item but after the heading,
> in a
> paragraph:
>
> ----------8<----------
> * (((= Title 1 =
>
> x)))
> ---------->8----------
>
> 3. Create a new list item:
>
> ----------8<----------
> * (((= Title 1 =)))
> * x
> ---------->8----------
>
> For the first outcome I think we all agree that the user has to
> press
> Shift+Enter. For the second and third outcomes I see two options:
>
> A) Enter for 2 and CTRL/META+Enter for 3
> B) Enter for 3 and CTRL/META+Enter for 2
> (if you see any other options please step up)
I don't think we need META.
I'd go with the simplest:
* when inside a group, use the normal enter behavior for the
underlying element. If you're in a header then enter create a new
paragraph, etc)
* you need to position the cursor after the group in the list item
and
press enter to get a new list item
The problem is that the list item wraps the group and there's no
(easy)
way to place the caret after the group but in the list item. In fact the
WYSIWYG editor is not aware of a group: it simply sees a list item
with
content inside. But since the caret is inside a heading the Enter
key is
treated accordingly, even if the heading is inside a list item.
That's
why I think we need a META+Enter to be able to get out of the list
item.
It would have the same effect as your META+Enter and would go to the
next list item for example. But again since we don't want to us Tab
it's moot.
Note: another solution could allow to get out of the group by
pressing
tab but we said we wanted to keep the standard browser tab
behavior.
I don't see how we could use the Tab key. If we
really want to introduce a new META+Enter then I'd definitely
vote +1 for A).
BTW how are groups represented visually in the editor? Maybe this
is
the real problem?
Groups are not represented visually in a special way. As I said, the
editor is not aware of them right now. I don't see how drawing a
border
around the group would help (through CSS). Also, in this case the
XWiki
2.0 syntax user is forced to use the group notation in order to add
complex content inside a list item because there's no other means of
doing this so I don't think he would expect to see a border around
the
content in the WYSIWYG editor. Additionally, I'm not sure we want to go into this
direction since
it poses numerous UI & technical issues.
I've tested the behavior of OpenOffice Writer and it's the
following: when a
list item is also a heading, hitting enter when the caret is at the
end of
the line gets the caret out of the list and creates a new paragraph.
In
DekiWiki, hitting enter when the caret is at the end of the heading
item
creates a new list item.
It looks to me both are wrong... :)
As I pointed it out in the JIRA comment, the most
common behavior
will be
for users to expect a new list item to be created when they hit the
enter
key, whatever the content located in the list item.
After a header typing enter generates a new para so I'm not sure why
the most common behavior would be to get to a new list item. I don't
see the use case where the user will want to insert a header inside a
list item without wanting to type some text below it. Maybe a use case
would be to do that instead of using a larger Font but he'll get some
trouble anyway with style since headers have an underline for example.
However if we choose A) , as guillaume said the user won't know how to
create the next list item (if we're on the last list item already).
The only solution I can think of to have the best of both world is
again to have a highlight when you're in such a case... Otherwise it's
about displeasing a good percentage of users anyway (btw funnily we'll
only get complaints from users who don't like the behavior and those
who like it won't say anything so we'll end up listening to the
complainers to find later on that those who liked it have become
complainers after you change, etc ;)).
Conclusion:
* I prefer the highlight solution but it's quite more complex to
implement
* A) is my second choice
* B) is third choice
* I'll follow the majority and won't vote a -1
BTW if we have a table inside a list item I hope we get the table
behavior on Enters and not B) ... B) is really going to be a pain in
those cases.
Thanks
-Vincent
If we implement A) ,
users will have no clue about what they need to do to get out of the
list if
they put a heading in a list since they won't know about CTRL/META +
ENTER.
Choosing A) would result in making the most intuitive / most used
option
hard to reach. I really don't think that's what we want.
Thus I'm strongly in favor of B) Enter for 3 and CTRL/META+Enter for 2
Guillaume
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>> Thanks,
>> Marius
>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> -Vincent
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm +1 for A) for the following reason: if the user has inserted a
>>>> heading in a list item then he will surely want to add more
>>>> content
>>>> after that heading, thus pressing just Enter is the natural way of
>>>> doing
>>>> this. From a technical POV the caret is first inside a heading and
>>>> then
>>>> inside a list item so the heading should have the priority of
>>>> handling
>>>> the Enter key.
>>>>
>>>> NOTE: Choosing A) or B) doesn't affect the way simple lists are
>>>> created,
>>>> which is using just Enter.
>>>>
>>>> Please cast your votes and sorry for the long mail,
>>>> Marius
15 May
15 May
12:03 a.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] [VOTE] Creating complex lists with the new WYSIWYG editor
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 2:01 AM, Marius Dumitru Florea <
mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
For the first outcome I think we all agree that the user has to press
Shift+Enter. For the second and third outcomes I see two options:
A) Enter for 2 and CTRL/META+Enter for 3
B) Enter for 3 and CTRL/META+Enter for 2
(if you see any other options please step up)
Sounds like wikimacs (wiki+emacs) :-)
What about using a multiple-repeated enters. Kind of like a keyboard
equivalent of a double, triple click, with some visual way of suggesting
what level "upwards" in the DOM the return will create the next element (e.g
a "box insertion caret" like for drag-drop operations):
* a single enter in a list adds a paragraph or <br> within the current
element. It does not create a new list or table entry.
* double-enter, creates a new <li> <tr> etc (depending on if you're in a
table, list etc) within the current table/list.
* triple-enter, creates a new <li> <tr> <p> or <br> as the next
element
outside of the current list/table etc. (if in a nested table/list, it'll
correctly add the next element)
...
-- Niels
http://nielsmayer.com
PS: I got to deal with all these fun issues back in ~1995 when i designed
WWWeasel (reviewed at an early WWW conf
here<http://nielsmayer.com/L27933-1529TMP.pdf>
)
http://nielsmayer.com/wwweasel/node26.html<http://nielsmayer.com/wwwease…
http://nielsmayer.com/wwweasel/node27.html
It is very helpful for the user to be able to see what's going on
"structurally" at the same time as you're editing in WYSIWYG.... If you can
graphically depict where in the DOM structure the "return" is pointing, at
what level of scope, then it's a lot less confusing to the user.
11:23 a.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] [VOTE] Creating complex lists with the new WYSIWYG editor
Hi Niels,
thanks for your feedback.
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 12:03 AM, Niels Mayer <nielsmayer(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 2:01 AM, Marius Dumitru Florea
<
mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
We tried doing something similar for paragraphs (hit enter once to create
next line, twice for new paragraph) and the feedback we got from users was
pretty negative. It looks like the user's expectation about the enter key is
that it will create a new item (new paragraph, new list item, new whatever).
Thus the concept of double-enter similar to double-clicking doesn't seem to
work in practice so far. Thus I think we shouldn't reintroduce it.
-- Niels
For the first outcome I think we all agree that the user has to press
Shift+Enter. For the second and third outcomes I see two options:
A) Enter for 2 and CTRL/META+Enter for 3
B) Enter for 3 and CTRL/META+Enter for 2
(if you see any other options please step up)
Sounds like wikimacs (wiki+emacs) :-)
What about using a multiple-repeated enters. Kind of like a keyboard
equivalent of a double, triple click, with some visual way of suggesting
what level "upwards" in the DOM the return will create the next element
(e.g
a "box insertion caret" like for drag-drop operations):
* a single enter in a list adds a paragraph or <br> within the current
element. It does not create a new list or table entry.
* double-enter, creates a new <li> <tr> etc (depending on if you're in a
table, list etc) within the current table/list.
* triple-enter, creates a new <li> <tr> <p> or <br> as the next
element
outside of the current list/table etc. (if in a nested table/list, it'll
correctly add the next element) http://nielsmayer.com
PS: I got to deal with all these fun issues back in ~1995 when i designed
WWWeasel (reviewed at an early WWW conf
here<http://nielsmayer.com/L27933-1529TMP.pdf>
)
http://nielsmayer.com/wwweasel/node26.html<
http://nielsmayer.com/wwweasel/node26.html#SECTION00051000000000000000>
http://nielsmayer.com/wwweasel/node27.html
It is very helpful for the user to be able to see what's going on
"structurally" at the same time as you're editing in WYSIWYG.... If you
can
graphically depict where in the DOM structure the "return" is pointing, at
what level of scope, then it's a lot less confusing to the user.
The WYSIWYM concept is pretty interesting and powerful. I played around with
tools such as WYMeditor
http://files.wymeditor.org/wymeditor/trunk/src/examples/01-basic.html
and I definitely do like the concept. However, this is not the direction we
have taken so far with our new WYSIWYG editor. Changing it to make it a
WYSIWYM editor on top of what it currently does would require considerable
effort. Our focus right now is on eliminating quirks and bugs in all major
browsers to make the editor ready for production use. Therefore I think
we'll have to wait some time before even considering building a WYSIWYM
editor for XWiki.
However, please note that since you can store XWiki document contents as
XML, you could definitely try to plug WYMeditor on top of XWiki and make it
the default edition option. You'd lack the wiki-specific feature, but for
content insertion you'd benefit from the WYSIWYM interface :-)
Guillaume
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Guillaume Lerouge
Product Manager - XWiki
Skype ID : wikibc
http://guillaumelerouge.com/
5657
days inactive
5658
days old
11 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
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Guillaume Lerouge -
Marius Dumitru Florea -
Niels Mayer -
Sergiu Dumitriu -
Vincent Massol