29 Sep
2014
29 Sep
'14
3:35 p.m.
Hi Caty,
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 3:14 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Guillaume Lerouge
<guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
keep
I'm not sure how you're coming to this conclusion. I never suggested moving
an action that is related to a given page away from that page.
If class "a" is stored in page "A", I don't see why the "Edit
class a"
button should be anywhere but on page "A". Theoretically, if XClasses were
not a specific concept in XWiki we wouldn't need the multi-select "Edit"
button (a single "Edit" button would automatically trigger class edition on
a XWiki page holding a XClass definition), but that's another debate
entirely.
However, I don't see how creating the wiki "SomeWiki" would be related to
page "A", which is why I'm suggesting moving the button some place else.
Hi Caty,
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
re-add
Hi,
So I think is a good idea to provide the ability to create
wikis/spaces/page on their Indexes pages. In the case of Wiki Manager
this
> was removed in http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9490 but if we it
> we could standardize the creation of entities in their context (just
like
we do it
on ColorThemes WebHome or on on Blog.WebHome).
Exactly :-) I'm +1 for this.
But even if we make this improvement, I still
would want to have the
ability to create wikis/spaces/pages in the Add menu.
As I've said before, I don't agree with this. Though I might be ok to the "Add space" action in there, with
the improvements suggested by Edy,
I
strongly believe that the "Create new
wiki" feature shouldn't be there.
It's an infrequent action with strong consequences. It should be
available
as a tool from the main wiki, but definitely not
from every page. Again,
how often does any user create a new wiki? Even for a large organization,
it will be mostly admins, and it will happen maybe a couple times a week
after XWiki is launched internally.
So in the end we have an action that is performed by *very few people, a
handful of times*, and we put it on *every single page in the main wiki
and
all sub-wikis*. I'm afraid that keeping all 3
actions in the same button
is
consistency for consistency's sake, but it
just doesn't match XWiki
users'
behavior, nor their expectations.
Besides consistency, what is the rationale for having all 3 actions in
one
place? How do you back up your reasoning with
actual user behavior? In
your
personal experience, how often do you use the
"create wiki" button in its
current location?
With this logic, why do we have the 'Edit Class' in the same
'Edit' menu?
We should be able to edit the Class just from the page that lists the
existing classes.
The logic is that I want to be able to perform RAPIDLY
an action, without
needing to go on a particular page.
Wikis/Space/Pages are BASIC entities in XWiki, is not something optional or
rarely used.
How often do you need to RAPIDLY create a new wiki, an action which takes
routinely takes several minutes to complete?
Thanks,
Guillaume
Thanks,
Caty
structure
> > > their content.
> > >
> > > Right now, when looking at existing installs, I often see cases
where
search
with
have
value
> > of
> > > > > 'Add'.
> > > > >
> > > > > Having all the option (Create Wiki, Create Space, Create Page)
in
wikis
about
IMO is not one way or the other (and I don't
agree with the duplication
Homepages/Indexes)
argument). One way of creating entries (the Add
menu way) is more
generic,
> while the other way (contextual form placement on the is
treated
specific to the entity type.
I don't mind having more that one button for an action in specific cases.
But I don't think the "Create wiki" action is one of those cases.
Thanks,
Guillaume
Thanks,
Caty
On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Eduard Moraru <
enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Guillaume,
> > >
> > > I have started a new discussion [1] on the topic of the new
location
> of
> > > the
> > > > Add menu in Flamingo which is, IMO, the real problem here.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'll answer on this thread.
> > >
> > > However, I stand by my point that creating a wiki or a space are
> > different
> > > actions compared from adding a new page and as thus should be > differently.
>
> Regarding your actual proposal, I`d be inclined to -1 it, as IMO it
makes
> > basic CRUD operations on the wiki model
harder to perform (i.e.
harder
> to
> > > find), and what we`d like to do is help people create content and
> > > structure, not the other way around.
> > >
> >
> > I agree with the logic but I'm not sure I'm 100% in line with the
> > conclusion. As you said, the goal is to help users create and > > users
> > > created several spaces with similar names (which doesn't really
help
> > > structure information). This is
mainly because they didn't know
that
a
the
the
> > space with a similar name already
existed. Similarly, you wouldn't
want
>
someone to create a "Communication" wiki if the
"MarketingCommunication"
> > wiki already exists.
> >
>
> What I read from your example above is that we can improve the create
> page/space/wiki UIs to have a section that does a kind of suggest to > user based on the name of the new entry he
wants to create. We could
have
> something like "The
pages/spaces/wikis/etc. above already exist. Are
you
> > sure you want to create a new <userEnteredEntityName>
> page/space/wiki/etc.
> > instead of using one of the above?"
> >
> > We could go as far as to force the user to check a checkbox before > > "Create" button becomes
enabled/clickable. This could either be a
> > configuration option, based on the desire/intent/wishes of the admin
of
> > that wiki/space.
> >
> > With a bit of effort, this could be done consistently for the entire
> > "/create/" action and its plugged-in template providers.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > This is why I'm proposing to place "Create" buttons in
context. I
see
at
they
> > > would actually be easier to find and understand for end-users.
> > >
> >
> > This will not solve anything if the user is already too lazy to > least 3 places where this could be useful:
>
> - "Create wiki" button on http://
<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/
> > - "Create space" button on hypothetical
> > http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/SpacesIndex
> > (similar to what we already have on the Dashboard)
> > - "Create user" button on http://<server>
> > /xwiki/bin/view/Main/UserDirectory
> >
> > So from my point of view, by putting those buttons on those pages > for
> > existing entries before creating one. The one he wishes to create
might
be
> on the second page of the livetable and the lazy user will just go
ahead
> > and create the similar entry.
> >
> > For this to be relatively effective in reducing duplication, we would
> have
> > to implement something on the lines of what I have described above > the
> > "reuse sugestion".
> >
> > I`m not particularly against this approach (of adding create options
in
the
> list), since we were already doing this at some point and in some
places,
> > but I`m still -1 for scattering the create logic in various locations
> > instead of using the centralized "Add" menu. If we don`t, we will
99999 pages all inside the Main space and that's
it. How`s that for a
wiki
> gardening nightmare? :)
>
> Thanks,
> Eduard
>
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Guillaume
> >
> > Thanks,
> > > Eduard
> > >
> > > ----------
> > > [1] http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/jqbcj4p4ryc56sms
> > >
> > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> > > valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > We improved the things a bit by implementing
> > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928
> > > > Now users can more rapidly create pages by using the implicit > the
> > > > menu
> > > > > is important IMO since you can create spaces (and wikis) from
> > anywhere
> > > in
> > > > > the wiki. You don't need to be in a certain location to do
this
> > action.
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree about having a Space Index of some sort and have a
> consistent
> > > way
> > > > > of localizing/navigating Wikis/Spaces/Pages. Something similar
to
> > this
> > > > idea
> > > > > was the Explorer proposal
> > > > >
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/ExplorerApp
> > > > >
> > > > > Another related issue to this subject is
> > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9440, but again I think
> > XWIKI-10928
> > > > > <http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928> improved the
problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Caty
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
> > > guillaume(a)xwiki.com
> > > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Devs,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm currently testing XE 6.2, it's a great release,
I love
the
new
> > > look a
> > > > > lot - well done guys!
> > > > >
> > > > > I have a quick remark that is related to the new location of
the
> > > > "Create"
> > > > > > button. I think we should move the "create wiki"
and "create
> space"
> > > > > options
> > > > > > from where they are located now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The "Create wiki" button could be moved under the
list of > on
> > > this
> > > > > > page: http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We would probably need a similar "space index"
page with the
> > "Create
> > > > > space"
> > > > > > button there, a bit like what we have on the dashboard
now:
> http://
> > > > > > <server>/xwiki/bin/view/Dashboard/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The objective being that when doing those create actions,
they
> > would
> > > be
> > > > > > done with the context of the wikis / spaces that already
exist.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What is also a bit confusing for users is that since
creating a
new
> > > wiki
> > > > is
> > > > > much much bigger and less frequent than creating a new page,
the
> > action
> > > > > should not be available from every single page.
> > > > >
> > > > > This issue has become much more salient than before to me
because
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > new location of the "Create" button. What's
your opinion > > this?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Guillaume