1 Oct
2014
1 Oct
'14
5:40 p.m.
On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 6:12 PM, Denis Gervalle <dgl(a)softec.lu> wrote:
:)
Thanks,
Caty
in
bottom),
vincent(a)massol.net
button.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hrxlj6n6pztigic/AddButton-Search.png
addition
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s119/sh/b8803c9b-4ea7-43dd-a2ed-1226080074f2…
Lerouge
> <
> > >> >> > > > > > > guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > > Hi again,
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25,
2014 at 12:39 PM, Guillaume
> > >> >> "Louis-Marie"
> > >> >> > > > > > Delhumeau <
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >
gdelhumeau(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> Hi Eddy,
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> 2014-09-25
11:59 GMT+02:00 Eduard Moraru <
> > >> >> > > > enygma2002(a)gmail.com
> > >> >> > > > > >:
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > Hi
devs,
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > I`m not
sure if we already have a discussion
lot
File
http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/File+Manager+Applicati…
by
entity
it
http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/Unique+Identification+…
it
located
want
On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 2:11 PM, Ecaterina Moraru
(Valica) <
valicac(a)gmail.com
It was always in the initial proposal
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Skin4x
and more explicitly in the Menus section
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Skin4xMenus
wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 2:33 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I kind of like this proposal. As Jeremie pointed out, we`re more or
less
> back where we started from, with the
"improvement" that the "Add"
button
is
'concerns'
now in the middle of the page, hard to miss :)
Now, if we also rename "Add" to "Create", the only downside is that
awkward
feeling of more or less cloning Atlassian's
UI. However, it's never a
question of UI ownership or copying, but just of what works best in
practice and what makes sense.
Hi,
Denis asked some days ago why some things changed from the original
Flamingo proposal "which we all agreed on". Apparently this is the reason
some of the things changed: listening to different opinions.
One of the reasons I'm a bit upset with these discussions is that when we
proposed Flamingo, a prototype was also available, so all these should have been noticed earlier, not in 6.2.1.
These kind of discussions
should happen in the Proposal phase, not in the Testing phase.
I completely agree with you on that point. And this is true for UI, as well
as anything else on this project. We always need it realized to received
criticisms. This probably a consequence of the fact that we are all very
busy. That said, I do not remember seing a proposal that look like the
current result. And your initial proposal does not exhibit the issue we are
actually discussing, which have been mainly started because of the add wiki
option.
Also all the changes proposed in Flamingo, where
discussed before. We
used
'Add' naming because 'Create' was
less used 'in the wild', was shorter,
etc. We moved the Add (from the Colibri position) because some users find
it difficult to locate, wanted to improve the actions grouping, etc.
I agree, what I am proposing actually only came from the current discussion
and the evolution of it. It is not always easy to imagine good UI without
tasting it for real. I think we should not care too much, and we should
look forward to finally getting the best UI ever, even if the process is
not academic.
----
I liked the Colibri's 'Add' position and I just want us to make this
change
because we think that is the best place for it,
not because we are
influenced and think another product might have the magic solution to our
problems.
If you consider that after a 'period of testing' that location is not the
best place for the 'Add' button to be, than I agree we can 'revert' the
change. IMO the menus are still not optimal, but I guess only testing
could
give us an impartial answer. I would have liked a
bit more time to test
this solution with 'normal' users, and I hope we don't do this change
because regular/advanced users had a hard time to adapt to it. I will
repeat myself, I think skins are allowed to have differences (but maybe
testing different solutions would be more acceptable if we had more skins
or changed them more often).
I do not think we are complaining because we are advance, only because it
mixup "out of context" and "in context" actions. Which is for the end
user,
surely a source of confusion.
Cathy, do not feel too upset of all these changes, you have made a great
job preparing this new skin, it just need polishing as any of what we do. I
know it is frustrating that preview are not look at carefully enough, but
that's life :)
Thanks,
Caty
either,
Regarding the addition of yet another "Add" button for page-related
entries, as suggested by Denis, I`m not sure it's such a good idea. I
never
> did like modals that much in web interfaces and, AFAIK, they are not
> recommended that much in HCI (Human-Computer Interaction) classes for the
simple reason that they are too volatile and are not friendly
with
> the browser's "Back" button. I think we already have enough shortcuts
> the 'More Actions' section and the
'Edit' dropdown.
>
> Thanks,
> Eduard
>
> On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea <
> mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 1:07 PM, Denis Gervalle <dgl(a)softec.lu>
wrote:
> > > On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 11:04 AM,
Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
<
> >
gdelhumeau(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Even better:
> >>
http://tof.canardpc.com/view/19c9c68f-9dae-440e-ad82-3b8a6cc4623a.jpg
> >
> >
> > Yes that one looks very cool to me but... :)
> >
> > I wonder if the name would not be better to be "Create".
> >
> > Since, I think we still need an another button in the page called
"Add"
to
> add to the page:
> * annotations using modal (you may select, than use the button
normally)
> > * comment using a modal (without having to scroll to the bottom)
> > * attachement using a modal (without having to scroll to the > > * objects using a modal (without
necessarily needing to load all
> existing
> > objects for edit, so a page could show objects without having to
manage
> > > addition of new ones, AWSeconds)
> > >
> >
> > > This way, the extradoc tabs could be hidden, independently of the
> > > comment/attachment functionality, and the pain of scrolling to the
> bottom
> > > is removed.
> >
> > Adding a comment or uploading a file using a modal box is fine.
> > Viewing the comments/attachments in a modal box is not a good idea
> > IMO. The user expects to see the comments/attachments after the
> > content. I don't think we can hide the extradoc tabs. Or maybe I
> > misunderstood.
> >
> > > It give also some logic to those button, with a non-contextual
> > > create button, and a contextual add button. We could then allow
> > application
> > > to hook both of them depending on their needs.
> > >
> > > Another, a bit off-topic, remarks, is that in the More actions,
> > annotation
> > > should be isolated, and work like a toggle to display/hide them
> > (including
> > > the author filter box and the tooltips), without needing to click a
> > > seperate checkbox.
> > >
> > > WDYT ?
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >> 2014-10-01 10:59 GMT+02:00 Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau
<
> > >> gdelhumeau(a)xwiki.com>gt;:
> > >>
> > >> > So basically, you want:
> > >> >
> http://tof.canardpc.com/view/25ad0704-563e-41cd-bbf2-72c371912245.jpg
> > >> >
> > >> > 2014-10-01 10:46 GMT+02:00 vincent(a)massol.net < 
:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> On 1 Oct 2014 at 10:09:00, Guillaume Lerouge (
guillaume(a)xwiki.com
> > >> (mailto:
> > >> >> guillaume(a)xwiki.com)) wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > Hi,
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > after discussing with Vincent this morning we came to a
> suggestion
> > >> that
> > >> >> > would fix my issue with the current location of the add
The
> >> idea
> >> >> > would be to move the search bar to the left of the menu, and
put
> > the
> > >> >> "Add"
> > >> >> > button in its place.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Crude image explanation here:
> > >> >> > 
>
>> >> >
> >> >> > This way the "Add" button is back in a global menu,
not in a
menu
> > that
> > >> >> is
> > >> >> > contextual to the page, yet it stays very visible. In
to
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s119/sh/948c4f24-2485-4b33-8452-1e6e1a2d6c74…
> >> this,
> >> >> > since "Create wiki" is visible only to authorized
users, it's
not
> too
> >> >> much
> >> >> > in the way. Last item: this solves the issue of having the
"Edit"
and
>> >> "More
>> >> > actions" buttons separated from one another.
>> >> >
>> >> > WDYT?
>> >>
>> >> Sounds the best to me! :) I never really liked the move of the
Create
>> >> button in the page contextual
menu (doesn’t make sense to me).
>> >>
>> >> FYI here’s what they have for:
>> >> - confluence:
>> >>
>>
>> >> - jira:
>> >>
>>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Thanks
> > >> >> -Vincent
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > Guillaume
> > >> >> > ᐧ
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 9:12 AM, Eduard Moraru wrote:
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:37 PM, Guillaume Lerouge
> > >> >> > > wrote:
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > > Hi,
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 3:28 PM, Ecaterina
Moraru
(Valica)
<
> > >> >> > > > valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:24 PM,
Guillaume Lerouge <
> > >> >> > > > > me(a)guillaumelerouge.com>
> > >> >> > > > > wrote:
> > >> >> > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > Hi,
> > >> >> > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 3:08 PM,
Ecaterina Moraru
> (Valica)
> > <
> > >> >> > > > > > valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 3:48
PM, Guillaume Lerouge
<
>> >> > > > >
guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
>> >> > > > > > > wrote:
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > Hi Marius,
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 3:54 PM,
Marius Dumitru
Florea
> <
> >> >> > > > > > > >
mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
> >> >> > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at
1:58 PM, Guillaume > > >> started
> > >> >> on
> > >> >> > > this
> > >> >> > > > > > > topic,
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > but
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> in
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > my
opinion, it's long overdue. I see
people
> > start
> > >> >> being
> > >> >> > > > > confused
> > >> >> > > > > > > and
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >
questions like this [1] start to be asked.
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > The new
location of the Add menu in
Flamingo
is
> >> >> > > problematic
> >> >> > > > > IMO
> >> >> > > > > > > for
> >> >> > > > > > > > a
> >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > various
number of reasons:
> >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > - It falsely
gives the impression that it
adds
> > >> >> > > page-related
> > >> >> > > > > > > entries
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > (i.e.
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > related
to the current page), due to its
> current
> > >> >> location
> > >> >> > > > > (i.e.
> > >> >> > > > > > in
> > >> >> > > > > > > > the
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> page
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >
content)
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > - It
conflicts with AWM`s "Add new Entry"
> button
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > > More generally
speaking, this is true for a > of
> > >> >> > > livetables.
> > >> >> > > > We
> > >> >> > > > > > > would
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > > need a generic
"Create" button to be
available
when we
>> >> > > > > instantiate
>> >> > > > > > a
>> >> > > > > > > > > > livetable. This could be
useful for the wiki
index
> >> >> page, for
> >> >> > > > the
> >> >> > > > > > user
> >> >> > > > > > > > > > directory, for all
the AWM homepages...
> >> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > > I guess you like the files
live table from the >>
>> Manager
>> >> > > then
>> >> > > > :)
>> >> > > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > >
>> >>
>>
>
>> >> > > > > > > > > . Would be interesting to have
such a toolbar
(with
> > >> >> support for
> > >> >> > > > > > custom
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > buttons) before the
live table don't you think?
> > >> >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > > IMO the toolbar's
functionality is already covered the
is
> > that
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> > > > Actions
> > >> >> > > > > column was used as an intermediate
solution because we
> didn't
> > >> had
> > >> >> bulk
> > >> >> > > > > actions in livetable (the ability to make
multiple >> >> > > 'Actions'
>> >> > > > > > column
>> >> > > > > > > in the livetable. The only thing missing
is the
'Create'
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > I'm not sure this is the same use case. I
can see at
least
> 3
> >> >> reasons
> >> >> > > > why:
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > IMO it's exactly the same use case, the
only difference > > >> >> selection
> > >> >> > > > > (checkbox) - that's why we duplicate
the entries on
each
> > row).
> > >> >> > > > >
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > > Great, this means that we agree on the fact
that the
> "Actions"
> > >> >> column
> > >> >> > > > should be replaced by a "Select"
column with checkboxes
in
it,
> and
> >> >> also
> >> >> > > > that Marius' horizontal livetable toolbar
should be
expanded
> to be
> >> >> used
> >> >> > > in
> >> >> > > > a generic fashion by all livetables :-)
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Not completely replaced because not all
operations/actions
can
be
> >> >> performed
> >> >> > > in bulk fashion. Take the 'edit' action and
notice that it
is a
> > >> single
> > >> >> > > element action compared to 'delete'.
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > A different situation exists for the
'rename' action since > is
> > >> more
> > >> >> of a
> > >> >> > > single element action, but can be presented as a
bulk
action
as
> > well
> > >> >> if you
> > >> >> > > provide some kind of renaming template like
'_'.
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > In other words, both the bulk operations toolbar
and the
> actions
> > >> >> column
> > >> >> > > have their right place in the livetable IMO and
having a
> checkbox
> > >> >> column
> > >> >> > > like Marius did for the FM livetable looks like the
right
way
> to
> > go.
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > Thanks,
> > >> >> > > Eduard
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > > Guillaume
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > > > Thanks,
> > >> >> > > > > Caty
> > >> >> > > > >
> > >> >> > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > 1/ The "create" button
would generate a new entry,
> whereas
> > the
> > >> >> > > > "actions"
> > >> >> > > > > > column is for actions that are
related to individual
> > entries
> > >> >> that
> > >> >> > > > already
> > >> >> > > > > > exist
> > >> >> > > > > > 2/ The "actions" column
can be removed by the
livetable
> > >> creator
> > >> >> > > > > > 3/ The toolbar would also be useful
to handle bulk
> actions
> > on
> > >> >> pages
> > >> >> > > > such
> > >> >> > > > > as
> > >> >> > > > > > "delete selected entries"
(as in the file manager)
> > >> >> > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > Best,
> > >> >> > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > Guillaume
> > >> >> > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > Thanks,
> > >> >> > > > > > > Caty
> > >> >> > > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > > > Yes and yes :-)
> > >> >> > > > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > > > Guillaume
> > >> >> > > > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > > >
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > > Basically the
button would let the user
create
a
a
> new
> >> >> item of
> >> >> > > > the
> >> >> > > > > > same
> >> >> > > > > > > > > type
> >> >> > > > > > > > > > than the items
displayed in the livetable.
Right
> > now
> > >> we
> > >> >> do
> > >> >> > > this
> > >> >> > > > > in
> > >> >> > > > > > an
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > > ad-hoc fashion,
so it would be great to have >
generic
> >> >> > > > solution.
> >> >> > > > > > It's
> >> >> > > > > > > > > also
> >> >> > > > > > > > > > related to the
automatic page name generation
> module
> >> >> (that we
> >> >> > > > > don't
> >> >> > > > > > > > have
> >> >> > > > > > > > > in
> >> >> > > > > > > > > > the core yet, though
there's an extensions
doing
it
>> >> > > > > > >
> > > <
>> >> > > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > >
>> >>
>>
>
>> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > > > ).
> >> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > > > Guillaume
> >> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > - from my
POV, looking at the page from a
far,
> the
> >> >> new
> >> >> > > > > location
> >> >> > > > > > > > looks
> >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > completely
randomly selected:
> >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > -- It's
not on the left/top (as
left-to-right
> > >> >> language
> > >> >> > > > > specific
> > >> >> > > > > > > > brains
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> are
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > trained
to follow)
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > --
it's not exactly at the top either
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > --
it's not at the right
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > --
it's not next to the type of elements >
creates
> >> >> (i.e.
> >> >> > > > next
> >> >> > > > > > to
> >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >
WIKI/SPACE/PAGE)
> >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > -- it
basically is almost in the middle of
the
> >> screen
> >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > - etc. (i.e.
others that don`t come right
now
> > to my
> > >> >> mind)
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> Personally,
I like the fact that it is > near
> >> >> the Edit
> >> >> > > > > > button,
> >> >> > > > > > > > > even
> >> >> > > > > > > > > >> if it does not
concern the current page.
Because
> > it
> > >> >> groups
> > >> >> > > the
> > >> >> > > > > > most
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > basic
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> and useful
actions that you need when you > to
> > >> >> > > contribute:
> > >> >> > > > > > EDIT,
> > >> >> > > > > > > > ADD.
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> To me, it
makes sense.
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > I`d
like to open a discussion on this,
since
> > it's
> > >> >> quite an
> > >> >> > > > > > > important
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> aspect
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > of the
UI and, due to it's shiny green
color
> > (which
> > >> >> I like
> > >> >> > > > > :)),
> > >> >> > > > > > > it`s
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > hard
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > to
miss.
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > Is it
just me who's resistant to change,
or
do
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--
Denis Gervalle
SOFTEC sa - CEO
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>>
>> others see
>> >> > > a
>> >> > > > > > > problem
>> >> > > > > > > > > here
>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > with this as
well?
>> >> > > > > > > > > >> >
>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > Thanks,
>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > Eduard
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> devs mailing list
>> >> devs(a)xwiki.org
>> >> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Guillaume Delhumeau (gdelhumeau(a)xwiki.com)
>> > Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
>> > Committer on the XWiki.org project
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Guillaume Delhumeau (gdelhumeau(a)xwiki.com)
>> Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
>> Committer on the XWiki.org project
>> _______________________________________________
>> devs mailing list
>> devs(a)xwiki.org
>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Denis Gervalle
> SOFTEC sa - CEO
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> devs(a)xwiki.org
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
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