22 Nov
2016
22 Nov
'16
12:33 p.m.
I don't think using a Forum would make much improvements. Yes, maybe it
would be easier for new contributors, but for the old ones (accustomed with
a certain way to communicate) would be harder.
In practice we won't be able to remove the mails since it's the core of the
communication. All the JIRA changes send e-mails, every commit sends an
e-mail, build, etc.
Now I agree that regarding design proposals (and one example is
http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-13070) I found it also hard to follow
the conversation since there were answers and proposals on the mailinglist
and in parallel on the JIRA.
We are using the mails for more purposes:
- Communication (of releases, events): instead of using creating a blog
post
- Votes: you cannot actually create JIRA entries for votes, since this is
not development related
- Brainstorming: again cannot create JIRA since there is nothing final,
just requesting opinions. Usually people use chats for this, but in mails
we have archives and it's async.
- Design proposals: here it's not ideal to create layouts in mails, since
there is no advanced styling support and we don't have additional macros
like gallery, etc. that can control the way we make the proposal. Other
organizations use GitHub dedicated Design issues for this topic, but if we
were to start using GitHub we would then question the usage of JIRA.
Design.xwiki.org is needed since it collects all the topics on design +
allows prototyping areas + it's dedicated to the topic.
- other?
Regarding your options:
A - I don't think I would like to use the app for this purpose + we don't
have the concept of NEW/Not read + I would still need mail notifications
B - php? :) still not thrilled with the change
C - this would be interesting, to try to have all things in one place. We
would need to add more issue types or separate somehow the ideas and tasks
from the normal development issues. But still JIRA is not ideal when it
comes to design proposals, since it's so hard to know what is the latest
image we need to discuss and we cannot really delete/hide old images.
So, I understand the issue and I feel it too sometimes (depending on the
type of mail - but mostly for design proposals), but I don't know if using
a Forum is the solution.
Thanks,
Caty
On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 1:13 PM, Guillaume Delhumeau <
guillaume.delhumeau(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
Hi everybody.
Today I would like to speak about an issue that annoys me for years.
We are working on a tool whose one of the objectives is to stop scattering
information in multiple places. It's even the main argument explained in
the video integrated on the home page of XWiki:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QTWrZ7OfzI.
But on the other hand, we, developers of XWiki, do the opposite in
practice. We discuss on mailing lists that are archived on Markmail, we
report issues on Jira and we do investigations on design.xwiki.org, and I
don't even count Github. A newcomer have to understand the role and the
functioning of each tool. It's quite complex.
I don't think we should give up Jira because it is the best tool available
in its domain and there is no serious competitor.
However, concerning the mailing lists, it's very different. Let me list
some problems:
- We recently had troubles with some emails that were lost because of
subtleties in the email protocols.
- Someone who just want to discuss once have to register to the mailing
list and then receive thousands of emails every year.
- Some emails are lost in the SPAM catchers.
- You cannot use serious text formatting. As far as I know, HTML is not
supported on the ML nor in Markmail.
- You cannot send attachments.
- People looking at messages on Markmail do not always understand how to
answer (I've seen some people trying to answer directly on Markmail because
they believe it WAS the messaging tool).
- This is "so 90s"!
It still have some advantages:
- Users can use their beloved email client.
- Mail lists are quite standards in the Open Source world.
However it does not balance the drawbacks.
To fix this, I see several options:
A - Evaluate and improve the Forum Application (
http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/ForumApplication) and
use our own Dog Food.
B - If it is too costly, use any PHP forum that the Open Source world have.
phpBB for example is the common choice. However, it does not centralize
everything but it replaces the couple ML/Markmail and these tools are very
well-known.
C - Use JIRA tickets with a certain label for development discussions
because sometime the debates are spread between issues and threads, so it
could be better to have everything directly on the issue. (FTR I don't
think JIRA is the right tool for that but I wanted to list all options).
This is not an action plan but a first step in that direction. Let me hear
what you think.
Thanks,
Guillaume
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