Re: [xwiki-devs] [VOTE] Start supporting IE10 and IE11

On 9 Sep 2014 at 15:23:35, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002@gmail.com(mailto:enygma2002@gmail.com)) wrote: > +1 for Thomas' logic. If its own maker dropped support for it, there is no > logic in us supporting it. "simple and easy to defend”. -1 because: A) it’s very difficult to know which support you’re talking about (see below for examples of the 4 dates for IE6.0.x) B) it has never worked like this and never will… It all depends on our use base and what they are using... C) Based on your rule we should still support IE6 SP3 since it’s still supported by MS on Windows Server 2003! (see below)

D) Based on your rule we wouldn’t be able to stop supporting IE8 now if we wanted since it’s still supported on all windows versions except XP More elaborate answer for point B): You seem to forget for how long we’ve kept support for IE6 even though it wasn’t supported anymore… If 90% of users are using a not supported browser, I say we should still support it. Another good example is windows XP which has been widely successful long after its successors were released because it was just better in several domains... FTR (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_6#Release_history): - Support for IE6.0 ended September 30, 2004 - Support for IE6.0 SP1 ended October 10, 2006 - Support for IE6.0 SP2 ended July 13, 2010 - Support for IE6.0 SP3 ended on April 8, 2014. However it’s still supported till July 14, 2015 for Windows Server 2003. So I prefer my proposal which is simply to collectively decide when we wish to drop support for a given version (for example I’m probably going to send soon a mail to propose dropping IE8 support for the 7.x cycle). Thanks -Vincent > Thanks, > Eduard > > On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:17 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) > > wrote: > > > My vote goes to: > > +1 to support IE11(IE10) for Flamingo > > -1 to support IE8 for Flamingo > > +1 to support IE8 for Colibri > > > > My rationale: > > - Flamingo should be viewed as a modern skin and should be displayed on > > modern browsers. > > - Although Bootstrap states that it support IE8/IE9 (see > > http://getbootstrap.com/getting-started/#support-ie8-ie9 ) the support is > > partial. Some properties are not fully supported and also you need a > > third-party JS dependency. > > - We will dedicate development time to fix issues on a browser that will > > die soon (and as you said is not supported by Microsoft and I don't even > > mention other companies) > > - IE8 works with Flamingo, but is not perfect (for me supporting a browser > > means assuring all the functionality is working and displaying perfectly on > > it). If an user really needs a perfect skin to work with IE8 they should > > pick Colibri > > > > Thanks, > > Caty > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 6:11 PM, Thomas Mortagne > > > > > wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Thomas Mortagne > > > wrote: > > > > On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Thomas Mortagne > > > > wrote: > > > >> Ok let me rephrase that a bit, what I would like to apply is what MS > > > >> plan to upgrade: "only the most current version of Internet Explorer > > > > > > > > s/upgrade/apply/ > > > > > > > >> available for a supported operating system". So based on what's on > > > >> http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/lifecycle. > > > > > > Right now this mean dropping support for 8 and 9. > > > > > > >> > > > >> On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:57 PM, Thomas Mortagne > > > >> wrote: > > > >>> On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:45 PM, vincent(a)massol.net < > > vincent(a)massol.net&gt; > > > wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On 4 Sep 2014 at 16:43:42, Thomas Mortagne ( > > thomas.mortagne(a)xwiki.com > > > (mailto:thomas.mortagne@xwiki.com)) wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> IMO we should modify > > > >>>>> > > http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/BrowserSupportStrategy > > > >>>>> with something like "we support what Microsoft support". It's > > simple > > > >>>>> and easy to defend IMO (why the hell would we do what Microsoft > > does > > > >>>>> not ?). > > > >>>> > > > >>>> I don’t like this too much because there are various levels of > > > support. General support and the companies take specific IE support for > > > older versions. > > > >>> > > > >>> I'm talking about general support (what MS call "mainstream support" > > > >>> on http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/lifecycle) of course > > > >>> since that's what we are talking about here. > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> And then I don’t necessarily agree to support old versions of IE > > even > > > if MS support them. For me it’s our choice to make. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Thanks > > > >>>> -Vincent > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>> > +1 for IE9/10/11 > > > >>>>> > +0 for IE8 (there is a lot of users but even Microsoft does not > > > support it!) > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> > 2014-09-04 16:11 GMT+02:00 Thomas Mortagne : > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> >> On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Thomas Mortagne > > > >>>>> >> wrote: > > > >>>>> >> > What about supporting what Microsoft support ? That means not > > > IE9/10/11 > > > >>>>> >> only. > > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> >> Remove the "not" of course. > > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> >> > > > > >>>>> >> > See > > > >>>>> >> > > > > > http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2014/08/07/stay-up-to-date-with-internet… > > > >>>>> >> . > > > >>>>> >> > > > > >>>>> >> > IMO we should not do more that the own browser editor does. > > > >>>>> >> > > > > >>>>> >> > On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 3:40 PM, vincent(a)massol.net > > > >>>>> >> wrote: > > > >>>>> >> >> Reviving this thread since we need to decide and lots of > > > committers > > > >>>>> >> haven’t voted yet! > > > >>>>> >> >> > > > >>>>> >> >> I’ve updated > > > >>>>> >> > > > http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/BrowserSupportStrategy > > with > > > >>>>> >> recent market share. > > > >>>>> >> >> > > > >>>>> >> >> Note that there are various other sources and they don’t seem > > > to show > > > >>>>> >> similar data: > > > >>>>> >> >> - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers > > > >>>>> >> >> - > > > http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parts_de_march%C3%A9_des_navigateurs_web > > > >>>>> >> >> - http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php > > > >>>>> >> >> > > > >>>>> >> >> However I think they all show that if we wish to support 80% > > > of users > > > >>>>> >> we have to support about the 10 top browsers used and AFAICS > > this > > > includes: > > > >>>>> >> >> - IE8/9/10/11 > > > >>>>> >> >> - FF latest > > > >>>>> >> >> - Chrome latest > > > >>>>> >> >> - Safari latest > > > >>>>> >> >> > > > >>>>> >> >> It seems market shared for IE8/9 are still high. However IE10 > > > is less > > > >>>>> >> high (probably because those who upgraded to it quickly upgraded > > > to IE11)? > > > >>>>> >> >> > > > >>>>> >> >> So far we have the following votes: > > > >>>>> >> >> - Andrea: +1 to support IE10/11 > > > >>>>> >> >> - Vincent: +1 to support IE10/11 > > > >>>>> >> >> - Marius: +1 to support IE11, +0 to support IE8/9/10 > > > >>>>> >> >> > > > >>>>> >> >> Thanks > > > >>>>> >> >> -Vincent > > > >>>>> >> >> > > > >>>>> >> >> > > > >>>>> >> >> On 10 Jun 2014 at 09:08:43, vincent(a)massol.net ( > > > vincent(a)massol.net > > > >>>>> >> (mailto:vincent@massol.net)) wrote: > > > >>>>> >> >> > > > >>>>> >> >>> Hi Andrea/all, > > > >>>>> >> >>> > > > >>>>> >> >>> On 10 Jun 2014 at 08:46:45, Andreea Popescu ( > > > andreea.popescu(a)xwiki.com > > > >>>>> >> (mailto:andreea.popescu@xwiki.com)) wrote: > > > >>>>> >> >>> > > > >>>>> >> >>> > Hello all, > > > >>>>> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> >> >>> > Following the "Start supporting IE10 and IE11" thread I’d > > > like to > > > >>>>> >> propose > > > >>>>> >> >>> > to vote if we will support IE10 and IE11. > > > >>>>> >> >>> > > > >>>>> >> >>> FTR the thread in question is at > > > >>>>> >> http://markmail.org/message/zjlbcfkl5cqnrwfk > > > >>>>> >> >>> > > > >>>>> >> >>> > The most important reasons for supporting these versions > > > are: > > > >>>>> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> >> >>> > - Internet Explorer 8 and Internet Explorer 9 are still > > > widely used > > > >>>>> >> by > > > >>>>> >> >>> > users, but many of them are currently choosing to update > > to > > > IE10 and > > > >>>>> >> IE11. > > > >>>>> >> >>> > - according to netmarketshare.com (Browsers -> Desktop > > > Share by > > > >>>>> >> Version) > > > >>>>> >> >>> > from a total of 100%, IE10 is used by 6.85% users and IE11 > > > by 16.61% > > > >>>>> >> users. > > > >>>>> >> >>> > It’s true that IE10 is not as popular as the older > > versions > > > (IE8 - > > > >>>>> >> 20.85% > > > >>>>> >> >>> > and IE9 - 8.89%), but its usage percentage is still > > > significant. > > > >>>>> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> >> >>> > Here’s my +1. > > > >>>>> >> >>> > > > >>>>> >> >>> On the above-mentioned thread Marius had proposed to support > > > only the > > > >>>>> >> latest version of each browser, which is basically what we’re > > > doing except > > > >>>>> >> for IE. The rationale is that it takes time to support all > > > browsers and the > > > >>>>> >> community can only do so much. Companies offering paid services > > > on top of > > > >>>>> >> XWiki could support the other browser versions for their > > > customers. > > > >>>>> >> >>> > > > >>>>> >> >>> While I understand that, my POV is a bit different: I’d like > > > that we > > > >>>>> >> support the top browsers/versions used by the majority of > > people, > > > because I > > > >>>>> >> feel XWiki will be successful if the majority of people can use > > > it without > > > >>>>> >> problems. > > > >>>>> >> >>> > > > >>>>> >> >>> Looking at the graph at > > > >>>>> >> > > > http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/BrowserSupportStrategy if > > > >>>>> >> we were to support at least the top 6 browser/versions we would > > > cover 70% > > > >>>>> >> of the user base. For IE this means supporting IE8-11. Note that > > > strangely > > > >>>>> >> IE8 is the top browser in market shares, way above most of the > > > others… Not > > > >>>>> >> supporting it ATM would mean “loosing" 20%+ of users. If we have > > > problems > > > >>>>> >> supporting, say the top 10 browsers, then we can drop to top 6, > > > if that’s > > > >>>>> >> an issue, then to top 5, etc. ATM we’re supporting 5 browsers > > and > > > with > > > >>>>> >> IE10-11, this would mean raising to 7 browsers. I propose that > > we > > > try it > > > >>>>> >> with the additional 2 browsers (IE10-11) and see if it’s a > > burden > > > for us or > > > >>>>> >> it’s manageable. > > > >>>>> >> >>> > > > >>>>> >> >>> So there are 2 questions in here: > > > >>>>> >> >>> - Starting the support for IE10-11: I’m +1 for that > > > >>>>> >> >>> - Deciding if we want to support only one version for each > > > browser or > > > >>>>> >> instead support the highest browsers in marketshare. I’m +1 for > > > the > > > >>>>> >> marketshare approach. > > > >>>>> >> >>> > > > >>>>> >> >>> Thanks > > > >>>>> >> >>> -Vincent > > > >>>>> >> >>> > > > >>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ > > > >>>>> >> >> devs mailing list > > > >>>>> >> >> devs(a)xwiki.org > > > >>>>> >> >> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > >>>>> >> > > > > >>>>> >> > > > > >>>>> >> > > > > >>>>> >> > -- > > > >>>>> >> > Thomas Mortagne > > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> >> -- > > > >>>>> >> Thomas Mortagne > > > >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ > > > >>>>> >> devs mailing list > > > >>>>> >> devs(a)xwiki.org > > > >>>>> >> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > >>>>> >> > > > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ > > > >>>>> > devs mailing list > > > >>>>> > devs(a)xwiki.org > > > >>>>> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> -- > > > >>>>> Thomas Mortagne > > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>>>> devs mailing list > > > >>>>> devs(a)xwiki.org > > > >>>>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>>> devs mailing list > > > >>>> devs(a)xwiki.org > > > >>>> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> -- > > > >>> Thomas Mortagne > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> Thomas Mortagne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Thomas Mortagne > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Thomas Mortagne > > > _______________________________________________ > > > devs mailing list > > > devs(a)xwiki.org > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > devs mailing list > > devs(a)xwiki.org > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs > > > _______________________________________________ > devs mailing list > devs(a)xwiki.org > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs