12 Nov
2014
12 Nov
'14
4:21 p.m.
On 12 Nov 2014 at 12:27:09, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
(valicac@gmail.com(mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
* I don't agree with the rules defined at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428%28v=vs.85%…
What don’t you agree with?
and I certainly wouldn't want to have that link in
our documentation.
Why not? (Although I didn’t suggest to have the link but the content of the link - we
should cite our sources though).
* I don't agree that we want to vote a standard
just for a SPECIFIC
language.
Wy not?
I would prefer to find some rules that apply to all
the
languages.
You can wish as much as you want but this is just plain daydreaming… Each language has
different rules. Period.
But more importantly it’s not up to us (XWiki Dev Team) to decide on this as we don’t want
to maintain translations. We only maintain the English version. The rest is done by the
community and each community around a language should define the rules they wish to use
for that language.
There are some provisioned pages on l10n for discussing language-specific rules.
This being said:
* Each sentence should start with the first letter of the word in uppercase
(Sentence cap).
I’m not even sure this is true for all languages but let’s assume it is for now.
This means that LiveTable actions like
'delete', etc. needs
to be fixed.
* The rule about first and last doesn't sound very well to me (Title cap),
Why not?
and anyway it means we would need to do it manually,
so it's a case by case
scenario.
It’s not a case by case, the rule is simple and defined here:
"Capitalize the first letter of all words in between, with the exception of articles
(a, an, and the); coordinating conjunctions (and, but, for, nor, or, so, and yet); and
prepositions of four letters or fewer (at, for, with, into, etc.).”
What I would do instead is: instead of capitalizing
random words
in headings, I would capitalize just entity names (Wiki, Space, Page,
Comment, etc.), examples:
- 'Add Page' - add is the first word in the sentence it's uppercase; page
is an entity is capitalized
but even this 'rule' can be misleading and confusing.
So you don’t agree to follow what seems to be commonly accepted in English? (that’s what
i’ve personally always used for labels/titles) Instead you prefer something arbitrary that
you personally make up and that you consider yourself misleading and confusing?
So actually here we are not discussing Capitalization,
but 'Title cap'
rule, since Capitalization is definitely a no.
Sorry you lost me again…. Why is Capitalization a no?
Capitalization: http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/capital.asp
"Capitalization is the writing of a word with its first letter in uppercase and the
remaining letters in lowercase."
I would prefer a 'Sentence cap' rule with some
exceptions for entities as
described above.
For example for the “More action” menu entry we currently have:
- Export
- Print preview
- View Source
- Share by email
…
And for the Edit menu:
- Wiki
- WYSIWYG
- Inline form
- Access Rights
...
From your answer I understand you wouldn't like having the following:
- Print Preview
- View Source
- Share by Email
- Inline Form
- Access Rights
but instead you’d prefer:
- Print preview
- View source
- Share by email
- Inline form
- Access rights
Is that correct?
Thanks
-Vincent
PS: I’d also suggest that you look around on your computer in menu entries/labels (in
chrome/firefox etc) and you’ll quickly see that it’s a commonly accepted rule to use
“Title Caps” in menu entries, labels, titles, etc. I really don’t understand what you
don’t like about it (you didn’t explain).
Thanks,
Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:08 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:55:52, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com(mailto:
> enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
>
> > The whole side-discussion started because we can not agree to those rules
> > before we agree how we do it: manually or automatically. If we agree on
> > automatically, then we can not, implicitly, agree on those rules.
>
> The fact that it’s automatic or manual doesn’t change a single thing about
> the rule.
>
> This is about the English language and how it’s applied to web pages,
> nothing to do with XWiki specifically. Do we want to follow the English
> language best practices, yes or no? I was expecting it to be a no brainer
> and everyone saying yes of course.
>
> I’m asking a last time: do you agree about following the Capitalization
> rules defined at
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).a…
> for the English language and make that our rule and publish it?
>
> I personally agree about it.
>
> Once we agree about it then:
> - We will publish it at dev.xwiki.org and on l10n.xwiki.org too
> - When translators write translations in English they’ll need to follow it
> (if they don’t it’ll be called a bug that will need to be fixed)
> - We can optionally (if possible, ATM it’s not) decide to automatically
> implement it using CSS
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > Thanks,
> > Eduard
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:52 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Let’s backtrack!
> > >
> > > The question I asked was NOT how do it!
> > >
> > > I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined
> at
> > >
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).a…
> and
> > > make that our own rule ad publish it.
> > >
> > > Please try to answer that question.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > -Vincent
> > >
> > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com
> (mailto:
> > > enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the
translation's
> > > > concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have
> a
> > > lot
> > > > of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a
> CSS
> > > > rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent.
> > > >
> > > > Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri
> skin, as
> > > > Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start
> modifying
> > > > all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new
> translations
> > > > (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do
> that. We
> > > > don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.
> > > >
> > > > Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple
> of
> > > > strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise
> CSS
> > > > itself is useless.
> > > >
> > > > +1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels,
> button
> > > > labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need
> to
> > > > come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and
> what CSS
> > > > classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will
> still
> > > > be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can
> not
> > > > catch with CSS.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Eduard
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> > > > valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in
the
> > > skin
> > > > > and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your
> > > solution we
> > > > > would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just
use the new
> > > format.
> > > > > Is a lengthy process.
> > > > >
> > > > > If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one
> > > language,
> > > > > thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally.
> > > > > The problem with changing just English is that according to
> Emanuel,
> > > all
> > > > > the other languages will look 'less professional'.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were
uppercase.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Caty
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Caty,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (
> > > valicac(a)gmail.com
> > > > > > (mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when
writing
> the
> > > > > > > Translations?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone
doesn't
> > > like it,
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase,
etc.
> Also
> > > note
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > certain languages (german for example) have meaning
problems
> > > > > capitalizing
> > > > > > > all the words.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In your example:
> > > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > > > > > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all
the
> words or
> > > > > none,
> > > > > > > we cannot skip one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I’d be -1 for CSS since:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * extra CPU work not required
> > > > > > * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to
Default"
> > > > > > * it’s not something optional that the user should be
allowed to
> > > change!
> > > > > > If they really want they’ll just need to override the
> translations
> > > > > (similar
> > > > > > use case than if they wish to change some wording)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m
not
> > > proposing
> > > > > > anything for other languages (each language has its own
rules
> > > regarding
> > > > > > Capitalization).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > Caty
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria
wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Here's my +1.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more
professional
> :)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > Manuel
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM,
vincent(a)massol.net
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi devs,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing
button labels (
> > > > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265)
and I think
> it’s a
> > > good
> > > > > > idea
> > > > > > > > > that we decide some rules about
capitalization indeed.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).a…
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content
as our rule for
> > > > > > Capitalization
> > > > > > > > > and to document that in our dev best
practices on
> > > dev.xwiki.org.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Example of labels:
> > > > > > > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment”
> > > > > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to
Default”
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > WDYT?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > -Vincent