21 Oct
2014
21 Oct
'14
7:48 p.m.
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 7:47 PM, Anca Luca <lucaa(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
Hi Edi,
I sort of understand from this mail that you think I am "defending" the
dashboard on the homepage. I cannot figure out how you got that idea.
The only thing I was saying in the previous mail is that 2 dashboards by
default don't make sense for me, because dashboard means to me overview and
I think we should rather make it easy for users to turn their homepage in a
proper overview rather than have 2 overviews. Because if we have the
dashboard separately (as today), then the Alices will create on the
homepage their own overview of the wiki, and then Bob, Billy and Bogdan
will have 2 of them. This is not necessarily bad, to be able to have
multiple dashboards, because you can imagine multiple facets of the same
wiki, but I think for a default wiki user is confusing (seeing the homepage
which is an overview and having a link on the right that takes to an
overview).
When I said that the 2 personas need to be analyzed together it was more
about what kind of customization we promote to the admin (Alice). E.g.
explaining as a generic thing that they could include another page and they
could customize could be too generic for the need of Alice, which is to
create a proper welcome page for the B-boys. If we knew / decided on what
is a proper welcome page for the B-boys, then we could make a choice about
how to allow Alice to take ownership, encourage editing, etc AND, in
addition, go towards the "users oriented homepage".
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
(corresponds to my option 2 expressed in my initial mail on this thread)
-- just to make all crystal clear
Hi Anca,
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 12:38 PM, Anca Luca <lucaa(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
purpose
That would be proposal 1 here:
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal1Keepcurren…
rather than a UC.
Since I don't know anymore what this mail is about and I am sure we're
gonna get lost in details, here is my proposal (corresponsad to by option
2) expressed in the initial mail):
Hello Edi,
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 7:26 PM, Anca Luca <lucaa(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello all,
> >
> > so on the topic of "removing the dashboard from the homepage" and if
> people
> > need it they can access it independently.
> >
> > In my opinion, this dashboard does not really exist or have any
value
> > beyond the homepage. I mean, what does
it mean, what is it used for
> besides
> > the homepage? What would the dashboard be used other than having an
> > overview of the wiki? And if people remove it from the homepage of
the
> > wiki, what would they put instead? An
overview of the wiki? Isn't
that
> what
> > dashboard means?
> >
>
> The idea of this proposal was that the homepage should be customized
by
the
> admin. It should be a homepage. Instead of a Dashboard, it should
contain
> information about the purpose of the wiki,
information for newcomers,
> information about the organization, some video, etc. All of this we
plan
to
> encourage the admins to customize so that they "take ownership" of
their
> wiki instead of seeing it as just a tool
with default settings. Some
may
> see disadvantages to this, and prefer
default tools, but others may
see
the
> value of getting the user/admin involved.
>
> The Dashboard should be seen as a place to go to in order to see what
is
> going on. Dashboards in the wild also tend
to be customizable per
users
(we
> technically support that as well, but it could be improved, i.e. have
a
> default user dashboard in the 'My
dashboard' section in the user
profile
instead
of the empty space that is right now in view mode, promote it
more,
etc.). They also tend to be used by more
technical people
Once the admin is involved and now aware of how to do things, he can
easily
> include the dashboard on the homepage if that is his view on the of
> his wiki. We can even propose it in the default content of the
homepage.
>
> What you choose depends a lot on the usecase you have for your wiki,
i.e.
> what flavor you`re using. For example, a
dashboard is good for
> intranet/groupware but not that good for public websites. We are
> considering here what we want the default experience to
offer/encourage
and
thing.
maybe we should not really focus on/be influenced
by any of the
flavors/use
> cases we are having in mind.
>
>
> >
> > By this logic, I would find it strange to have a homepage and a
> dashboard,
> > as 2 separate entities, because for me they would mean the same So
> > multiple possibilities:
> > 1/ our _default_ dashboard displayed on the homepage (included or
not,
I
> don't care) is not good enough because
it does not offer a good
_default_
> overview of the wiki. We need to change the
dashboard.
This is not part of the use cases [1] extracted from previous
discussions.
Are you proposing that we add "offer a good
overview of the wiki" as a
new
> use case/goal or is this just a rewording of UC5 (navigation) ?
> * By default the home page is a regular wiki page,
with some text in it,
that demonstrates all the features of the wiki, something like a Sandbox
webhome. This should cover a couple of the usecases for Alice admin that
needs to understand how wiki works. Also, she will be able to edit the
homepage like a regular page.
* Next to the edit button of this page, we add a button with an
UIExtension which will say: "Turn this homepage in a dashboard with
gadgets". Upon click, we open a wizard where we explain a bit what's gonna
happen **and also that history rollback can always be used to fix whatever
we might have done**. The wizard will put a dashboard macro on the
homepage, force the default edit mode to be inline, add a couple of gadgets
already (some of the most used, etc) and will take the admin back to edit
mode of this page, which she will customize as she pleases.
* There is no link to a dashboard in the menu, the dashboard on
Dashboard.WebHome does not exist anymore. The homepage will be a dashboard
itself (and not include a dashboard).
Ideally, the way I see this used is that when the admin is done
experimenting and has full ownership, they will click this dashboard button
and create a dashboard for the wiki to give to B users. Why dashboard and
not any other thing, like a page include or free text? Mainly because I
think the dashboard is an interesting usecase for the users (B), with the
proper gadgets available, of course, and directing the Admin A towards that
usecase could help noob admins that don't want to understand all the
concepts of the wiki to have a nice homepage.
I just thought of another quite frequent usecase for the homepage for the
users B, which is the homepage of an application (when the wiki is fully
dedicated to an application). I think this should be a preference setting
for admin A, not an include. As in, the Main.WebHome will not include the
other application homepage, but the wiki will actually land on a different
page when accessed. This configuration could be done in the preferences of
the wiki. The case of including pages in the home could be limiting for the
panels or space specific skin (if the application has specific panels, like
the blog, then the same panels would need to be configured on the whole
wiki in order for the usecase "land directly in application blog" to be
fulfilled). This would mean
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal4Setthispag…
. Note that this proposal does not collide with the proposal I made above
about the dashboard.
Thanks,
Anca
and
the
because
easy
that
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
I need to think a little more about this in order to make a complete
answer, but I read the list of usecases and I remarked one thing:
In all UC1 to UC5, I think your "user" is more of an "admin" than a
user. I
see the following flow in working with a wiki:
Alice downloads the wiki and plays around with it locally, tests it and
checks its features. Then, she is convinced by the tool and decides to
move
this to the next level and install the wiki on a
server (or get it
installed) so that she can collaborate with her colleagues, Bob, Billy
and
Bogdan. To me Alice is not a user, she's more
like a wiki admin. Then
when
the wiki is installed on the server, the three B
boys are the users and
Alice might become a user as well, or might always stay a little more
admin. When she moves from her private tests to a public tool, Alice
prepares the homepage of the wiki so that it matches the purpose of the
wiki and the B boys. Alice will need to "UC3: The user needs to be able
to
easily replace the home page with his
content" but the B boys won't.
I think you`ve perfectly described what we want to do with the homepage
(*in this proposal*), and yes, the user we are interested in in this case
is the admin (Alice) that we want to encourage to take ownership of the
wiki she is going to present to the wiki's users (B-boys) instead of
offering them a vanilla "Untitled Document" experience :)
I think that the admin (Alice) homepage needs cannot be analysed
independently from the user (Bob, Billy and
Bogdan) homepage needs,
because
we risk to provide the admin with customization
tools that they will
never
need because the user will never need such a
customization.
In a way, that is exactly what the Dashboard is doing: it is *a tool* that
the user is presented with by default and which he might not need (and has
no idea how to get rid of).
This proposal was about promoting more the wiki itself (not customization
tools) and empowering the user that will deploy it so that he can provide
an optimum experience to his users. We can`t really do much for the
variety
of use cases and users out there that might be using XWiki, but the admin
can (*if he is able to*, and this is what this proposal is pushing for).
The Dashboard is nice, no argument there, but it is just *a tool*, among
others, that the admin could choose to use or not.
Still, this is currently just one proposal amongst others [1].
Thanks,
Eduard
----------
[1] http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals
Thanks,
Anca
>
> Thanks,
> Eduard
>
> [1] http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageUseCases
>
>
> > In this case, we
> > improve the way we modify this dashboard, to allow people to change
the
> > "default" overview which
guides the user through the wiki with an
> overview
> > that is more adapted to the user's usecase.
> > 2/ we change the homepage and we remove the dashboard from it and
> implement
> > an overview of the wiki differently (which would still be a
dashboard
at
> > the conceptual level but implemented differently). In this case, the
> > Dashboard.WebHome should be removed completely from the menu,
because
the
> > dashboard _is_ the home page (see my remark above) :) . We can make
the
>
homepage a regular page so that users can edit it very easily by
default,
> > but we also allow them to easily make it a dashboard with gadgets > drag
> > & drop, so that they can organize their content. I am thinking for
> example
> > of a button on the homepage, in view mode injected with javascript
or
UI
of
> extension or I don't know, which runs a
script that creates a new
version
> of the homepage which contains a dashboard
macro call and a default
gadget
> and the user is taken to the edit mode of the homepage, with the
dashboard
> editor in it.
>
> The only reason why the dashboard is separate now, in
Dashboard.WebHome,
> is
> > for legacy reasons, because it used to be included as the homepage all
> > sort of default spaces, so we needed something that can be re-used
for
>
spaces homes as well. Otherwise, from my point of view, it does not
need
> to
> > be a separate entity. I mean, one should be able to create as many
> > dashboards as they'd want (on any page they want), but by default >
dashboard of the wiki is only one, the homepage of the wiki.
>
> Anca
>
> On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 3:23 PM, vincent(a)massol.net <
vincent(a)massol.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi devs,
> > >
> > > As you know I started working on a Home Page Application, see:
> > > - JIRA with screenshots: http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10586
> > > - Discussion thread: http://markmail.org/message/ghelufamwucog46x
> > >
> > > I have it all done locally but I refrained from committing it > on
> > > the email thread some expressed their doubts.
> > >
> > > I started thinking about it and I expressed some idea in the
thread
> > > started by Caty about "Wiki -
Space - Page concepts pitch":
> > > http://markmail.org/message/jefze7nvprz36pkw
> > >
> > > I’m pasting it here again for discussion (with some edits):
> > >
> > > "
> > > BTW concerning the home page, I’m more and more leaning towards
> removing
> > > the dashboard from it (it’s accessible from the App panel anyway)
and
> > > instead have it contain:
> > > - explanation about how the wiki is organized (wikis, spaces,
pages)
> >
- explanation about base concepts (editing, saving, etc)
> > - encourage the user to edit this home page to make it his own and
put
> > the
> > > content he wishes instead
> > >
> > > I think this would solve the following issues:
> > > - users always want to customize the home page and this makes it > > > (it’s a standard page, no
dashboard). This is also a way for them
to
take
> > ownership of the wiki as theirs.
> > - explains the main concepts of wiki, space, page
> >
> > Of course, we also need to provide a navigation panel for easy
navigation
> > in the wiki/spaces/pages.
> > “
> >
> > If we agree about the idea of removing the dashboard and instead
have a
> > > simple page then we’ll need to discuss the exact content and for > I’m
> > > proposing to discuss with Caty/GuillaumeD and make a proposal for
> further
> > > discussion. Of course any idea in reply to this email would also
be
much
> > appreciated.
> >
> > But first things first! We first need to decide if this is a good
idea
or
> > not.
> >
> > WDYT?
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> > _______________________________________________
> > devs mailing list
> > devs(a)xwiki.org
> > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> devs(a)xwiki.org
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs