30 Sep
2014
30 Sep
'14
1:20 p.m.
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:56 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
Hi Edy,
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:07 AM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
button
his
I fully agree with this. However, I see organizations using XWiki every day
that
Again, it's not about preventing users from creating new wikis. My proposal
is about moving an infrequent action (at least compared to the "create
page" action) to a better-suited location. I don't see how that's not
empowering users.
Also, XWiki is a tool that is supposed to improve collaboration, not
I'm calling it an infrequent action because it IS an infrequent action.
Look at how we use it ourselves on the XWiki.org family of sites for
instance: how often do you create a new sub-wiki, as opposed to adding new
pages?
XWiki.org is a knowledge base flavor that is not open to the public, i.e.
as opposed to something like wikia[1] or any other open wiki hosting
provider. It is not a good example. Don`t forget that XWiki is, after all
and among many others, a wiki. You are talking here about the default
behavior and features and, IMO, by default it should respect its nature.
Perhaps a better example would be an intranet where people collaborate on
projects, creating a wiki for each new project.
Anyway, to put it short, all the valid reasons for which we went along with
"Workspaces". Are you suggesting it was a bad idea and we should have just
kept the old wiki manager which was perfectly fine for creating use-cases
like the ones you describe?
[1] http://www.wikia.com/Wikia
Hi,
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
keep
> the "Add space" action in there, with the improvements suggested by
Edy,
Hi Caty,
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
re-add
Hi,
So I think is a good idea to provide the ability to create
wikis/spaces/page on their Indexes pages. In the case of Wiki Manager
this
> was removed in http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9490 but if we it
> we could standardize the creation of entities in their context (just
like
we do it
on ColorThemes WebHome or on on Blog.WebHome).
Exactly :-) I'm +1 for this.
But even if we make this improvement, I still
would want to have the
ability to create wikis/spaces/pages in the Add menu.
As I've said before, I don't agree with this. Though I might be ok to I
Again,
strongly believe that the "Create new
wiki" feature shouldn't be there.
It's an infrequent action with strong consequences. It should be
available
> as a tool from the main wiki, but definitely not from every page. > how often does any user create a new wiki?
Even for a large
organization,
> it will be mostly admins, and it will happen
maybe a couple times a
week
> after XWiki is launched internally.
> So in the end we have an action that
is performed by *very few people,
a
handful
of times*, and we put it on *every single page in the main wiki
and
> all sub-wikis*. I'm afraid that keeping all 3 actions in the same is
its
consistency for consistency's sake, but it
just doesn't match XWiki
users'
behavior, nor their expectations.
Besides consistency, what is the rationale for having all 3 actions in
one
place? How do you back up your reasoning with
actual user behavior? In
your
> personal experience, how often do you use the "create wiki" button in
current
location?
Big -1 for this!
It`s the *whole point why we`ve introduced Workspaces* (or wikis, or call
it whatever you like). The whole idea is to empower the user to create workspace where he can freely collaborate with
his peers and install
whatever applications they want. You do have to consider the fact that
you
may have been exposed to tight organizational
usages of XWiki where its
users are the slaves of the admin and don`t/can`t really do anything
without his approval. However, I personally (and hope am not alone here),
want to make XWiki more than this and to allow it to be used by more
open-minded organizations that empower their users and their
collaboration.
diminish it into "misticism" by calling
the simple task of creating a
wiki
> (which is part of XWiki's data model and, with a new model implementation
> could be even more seamlessly integrated without using primitive/rigid
> storage solutions such as databases) "an infrequent action with strong
> consequences".
There's nothing mystic about looking at basic data
points.
Oh, and don`t forget flavors, that are supposed to build even more on the
That was the whole point of the Add button, to mask all this complexity and
keep it away from the main UI. If you ask me, we risk failing a bit at this
with the new App Bar/Panel, but that's another topic. :)
If you read again my message, my only focus was on CRUD operations on
XWiki's model, which is what we were doing until this point and which I
would really like to keep doing since it is, IMO, the best way to go.
Thanks,
Eduard
above mentioned, so yes, you do need to create
wikis easily and yes, you
do
need to promote that in the UI so that user's
discover it and not bury it
in some livetable in a space/page that users are intimidated by.
Not bury it, put it in a logical place: the create button next to the list
of items of the same type that already exist.
According to the "promote it in the UI" logic, why not give every single
option in XWiki a button on all pages? It would be amazing.
<
http://colemancountyinstitute.wikispaces.com/file/view/microsoft.jpg/146633…
Thanks,
Guillaume
Perhaps it's just a problem of perception at this point.
treated
> > > > differently.
> > > >
> > > > Regarding your actual proposal, I`d be inclined to -1 it, as IMO
it
where
wouldn't
admin
search
would
options
for a
the
page,
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Thanks,
Eduard
cases.
IMO is not one way or the other (and I don't agree with the duplication
Homepages/Indexes)
> is
> > specific to the entity type.
> >
>
> I don't mind having more that one button for an action in specific argument). One way of creating entries (the Add
menu way) is more
generic,
> while the other way (contextual form placement on the But I
don't think the "Create wiki" action is one of those cases.
Thanks,
Guillaume
> Thanks,
> Caty
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com
wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Eduard Moraru <
enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Guillaume,
> > >
> > > I have started a new discussion [1] on the topic of the new
location
> of
> > > the
> > > > Add menu in Flamingo which is, IMO, the real problem here.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'll answer on this thread.
> > >
> > > However, I stand by my point that creating a wiki or a space are
> > different
> > > actions compared from adding a new page and as thus should be > > makes
> > > > > basic CRUD operations on the wiki model harder to perform (i.e.
> > harder
> > > to
> > > > > find), and what we`d like to do is help people create content
and
> > > structure, not the other way around.
> > >
> >
> > I agree with the logic but I'm not sure I'm 100% in line with the
> > conclusion. As you said, the goal is to help users create and
structure
> > > their content.
> > >
> > > Right now, when looking at existing installs, I often see cases > > users
> > > created several spaces with similar names (which doesn't really
help
> > > structure information). This is
mainly because they didn't know
that
> a
> > > > space with a similar name already existed. Similarly, you > want
> > > > someone to create a "Communication" wiki if the
> > "MarketingCommunication"
> > > > wiki already exists.
> > > >
> > >
> > > What I read from your example above is that we can improve the
create
> > > page/space/wiki UIs to have a
section that does a kind of suggest
to
> the
> > > user based on the name of the new entry he wants to create. We
could
> have
> > > something like "The pages/spaces/wikis/etc. above already exist.
Are
you
> > sure you want to create a new <userEnteredEntityName>
> page/space/wiki/etc.
> > instead of using one of the above?"
> >
> > We could go as far as to force the user to check a checkbox before
the
> > > "Create" button becomes enabled/clickable. This could either be
a
> > > configuration option, based on the desire/intent/wishes of the of
> > > that wiki/space.
> > >
> > > With a bit of effort, this could be done consistently for the
entire
> >
"/create/" action and its plugged-in template providers.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > This is why I'm proposing to place "Create" buttons in
context. I
see
at
> > least 3 places where this could be useful:
> >
> > - "Create wiki" button on http://
<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/
> > - "Create space" button on hypothetical
> > http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/SpacesIndex
> > (similar to what we already have on the Dashboard)
> > - "Create user" button on http://<server>
> > /xwiki/bin/view/Main/UserDirectory
> >
> > So from my point of view, by putting those buttons on those pages
they
> > > would actually be easier to find and understand for end-users.
> > >
> >
> > This will not solve anything if the user is already too lazy to > for
> > existing entries before creating one. The one he wishes to create
might
> > be
> > > on the second page of the livetable and the lazy user will just go
> ahead
> > > and create the similar entry.
> > >
> > > For this to be relatively effective in reducing duplication, we > have
> > to implement something on the lines of what I have described above
with
> > the
> > > "reuse sugestion".
> > >
> > > I`m not particularly against this approach (of adding create in
> > the
> > > list), since we were already doing this at some point and in some
> places,
> > > but I`m still -1 for scattering the create logic in various
locations
> >
instead of using the centralized "Add" menu. If we don`t, we will
have
> > > 99999 pages all inside the Main space and that's it. How`s that > > wiki
> > > gardening nightmare? :)
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Eduard
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Guillaume
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Eduard
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------
> > > > > [1] http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/jqbcj4p4ryc56sms
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> > > > > valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We improved the things a bit by implementing
> > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928
> > > > > > Now users can more rapidly create pages by using the
implicit
> value
> > > of
> > > > > > 'Add'.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Having all the option (Create Wiki, Create Space, Create
Page)
in
> > the
> > > > > menu
> > > > > > is important IMO since you can create spaces (and wikis)
from
> > > anywhere
> > > > in
> > > > > > the wiki. You don't need to be in a certain location to
do
this
> > > action.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree about having a Space Index of some sort and have a
> > consistent
> > > > way
> > > > > > of localizing/navigating Wikis/Spaces/Pages. Something
similar
to
of
> > this
> > > > idea
> > > > > was the Explorer proposal
> > > > >
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/ExplorerApp
> > > > >
> > > > > Another related issue to this subject is
> > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9440, but again I think
> > XWIKI-10928
> > > > > <http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928> improved the
problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Caty
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
> > > guillaume(a)xwiki.com
> > > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Devs,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm currently testing XE 6.2, it's a great release,
I love
the
> > new
> > > > > look a
> > > > > > > lot - well done guys!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have a quick remark that is related to the new
location > the
> > > > > "Create"
> > > > > > > button. I think we should move the "create
wiki" and
"create
>
space"
> > > > > options
> > > > > > from where they are located now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The "Create wiki" button could be moved under the
list of
wikis
> > on
> > > > this
> > > > > > > page:
http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We would probably need a similar "space
index" page with > >
"Create
> > > > > space"
> > > > > > button there, a bit like what we have on the dashboard now:
> http://
> > > > > > <server>/xwiki/bin/view/Dashboard/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The objective being that when doing those create actions,
they
> > would
> > > be
> > > > > > done with the context of the wikis / spaces that already
exist.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What is also a bit confusing for users is that since
creating a
> > new
> > > > > wiki
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > much much bigger and less frequent than creating a new
the
about
> > action
> > > > > should not be available from every single page.
> > > > >
> > > > > This issue has become much more salient than before to me
because
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > new location of the "Create" button. What's
your opinion > > this?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Guillaume