Re: [xwiki-devs] Proposal: moving the "create wiki" and "create space" actions

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Jeremie BOUSQUET < jeremie.bousquet(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > Hi, > > Le 29 sept. 2014 15:12, "Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)" &lt;valicac(a)gmail.com&gt;

> écrit : > > > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <

> > wrote: > > > > > Hi Caty, > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < > > > valicac(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > So I think is a good idea to provide the ability to create > > > > wikis/spaces/page on their Indexes pages. In the case of Wiki

> > > this > > > > was removed in http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9490 but if we > re-add > > > it > > > > we could standardize the creation of entities in their context

> like > > > > we do it on ColorThemes WebHome or on on Blog.WebHome). > > > > > > > > > > Exactly :-) I'm +1 for this. > > > > > > > > > > But even if we make this improvement, I still would want to have

> > > > ability to create wikis/spaces/pages in the Add menu. > > > > > > > > > > As I've said before, I don't agree with this. Though I might be ok

> keep > > > the "Add space" action in there, with the improvements suggested by > Edy, I > > > strongly believe that the "Create new wiki" feature shouldn't be

> > > It's an infrequent action with strong consequences. It should be > available > > > as a tool from the main wiki, but definitely not from every page. > Again, > > > how often does any user create a new wiki? Even for a large > organization, > > > it will be mostly admins, and it will happen maybe a couple times a > week > > > after XWiki is launched internally. > > > > > > > > This is already the case. The wiki button is displayed only if you

Creating Wikis is not dangerous. Wikis are a standard concept used for organization of content and applications. How often you create wikis is just a matter of use case.

Thanks, Caty > > > > > Thanks, > > Caty > > > > > > > So in the end we have an action that is performed by *very few

> a > > > handful of times*, and we put it on *every single page in the main

> and > > > all sub-wikis*. I'm afraid that keeping all 3 actions in the same > button is > > > consistency for consistency's sake, but it just doesn't match XWiki > users' > > > behavior, nor their expectations. > > > > > > Besides consistency, what is the rationale for having all 3 actions

> one > > > place? How do you back up your reasoning with actual user behavior?

> your > > > personal experience, how often do you use the "create wiki" button

> its > > > current location? > > > > > > IMO is not one way or the other (and I don't agree with the

> > > > argument). One way of creating entries (the Add menu way) is more > > > generic, > > > > while the other way (contextual form placement on the > Homepages/Indexes) > > > is > > > > specific to the entity type. > > > > > > > > > > I don't mind having more that one button for an action in specific > cases. > > > But I don't think the "Create wiki" action is one of those cases. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Guillaume > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Caty > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Eduard Moraru <

> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < > > > guillaume(a)xwiki.com&gt; > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Eduard Moraru < > > > enygma2002(a)gmail.com&gt; > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guillaume, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have started a new discussion [1] on the topic of the new > > > location > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > Add menu in Flamingo which is, IMO, the real problem here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll answer on this thread. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, I stand by my point that creating a wiki or a space

> > > > > different > > > > > > actions compared from adding a new page and as thus should be > treated > > > > > > differently. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding your actual proposal, I`d be inclined to -1 it, as

> it > > > > makes > > > > > > > basic CRUD operations on the wiki model harder to perform

> > > > harder > > > > > to > > > > > > > find), and what we`d like to do is help people create

> and > > > > > > > structure, not the other way around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with the logic but I'm not sure I'm 100% in line with

> > > > > > conclusion. As you said, the goal is to help users create and > > > structure > > > > > > their content. > > > > > > > > > > > > Right now, when looking at existing installs, I often see

> where > > > > > users > > > > > > created several spaces with similar names (which doesn't

> help > > > > > > structure information). This is mainly because they didn't

> that > > > a > > > > > > space with a similar name already existed. Similarly, you > wouldn't > > > want > > > > > > someone to create a "Communication" wiki if the > > > > "MarketingCommunication" > > > > > > wiki already exists. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I read from your example above is that we can improve the > create > > > > > page/space/wiki UIs to have a section that does a kind of

> to > > > the > > > > > user based on the name of the new entry he wants to create. We > could > > > have > > > > > something like "The pages/spaces/wikis/etc. above already exist. > Are > > > you > > > > > sure you want to create a new <userEnteredEntityName> > > > > page/space/wiki/etc. > > > > > instead of using one of the above?" > > > > > > > > > > We could go as far as to force the user to check a checkbox

> the > > > > > "Create" button becomes enabled/clickable. This could either be

> > > > > configuration option, based on the desire/intent/wishes of the > admin of > > > > > that wiki/space. > > > > > > > > > > With a bit of effort, this could be done consistently for the > entire > > > > > "/create/" action and its plugged-in template providers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why I'm proposing to place "Create" buttons in

> see > > > > at > > > > > > least 3 places where this could be useful: > > > > > > > > > > > > - "Create wiki" button on http:// > > > > <server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ > > > > > > - "Create space" button on hypothetical > > > > > > http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/SpacesIndex > > > > > > (similar to what we already have on the Dashboard) > > > > > > - "Create user" button on http://<server> > > > > > > /xwiki/bin/view/Main/UserDirectory > > > > > > > > > > > > So from my point of view, by putting those buttons on those

> > > they > > > > > > would actually be easier to find and understand for end-users. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This will not solve anything if the user is already too lazy to > search > > > > for > > > > > existing entries before creating one. The one he wishes to

> might > > > > be > > > > > on the second page of the livetable and the lazy user will just

> > > ahead > > > > > and create the similar entry. > > > > > > > > > > For this to be relatively effective in reducing duplication, we > would > > > > have > > > > > to implement something on the lines of what I have described

> with > > > > the > > > > > "reuse sugestion". > > > > > > > > > > I`m not particularly against this approach (of adding create > options in > > > > the > > > > > list), since we were already doing this at some point and in

> > > places, > > > > > but I`m still -1 for scattering the create logic in various > locations > > > > > instead of using the centralized "Add" menu. If we don`t, we

> have > > > > > 99999 pages all inside the Main space and that's it. How`s that

> a > > > > wiki > > > > > gardening nightmare? :) > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Eduard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > Guillaume > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > Eduard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > [1] http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/jqbcj4p4ryc56sms > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)

> > > > > > > valicac(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We improved the things a bit by implementing > > > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928 > > > > > > > > Now users can more rapidly create pages by using the

> > > value > > > > > of > > > > > > > > 'Add'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having all the option (Create Wiki, Create Space, Create > Page) in > > > > the > > > > > > > menu > > > > > > > > is important IMO since you can create spaces (and wikis)

> > > > > anywhere > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > the wiki. You don't need to be in a certain location to do > this > > > > > action. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree about having a Space Index of some sort and have a > > > > consistent > > > > > > way > > > > > > > > of localizing/navigating Wikis/Spaces/Pages. Something > similar to > > > > > this > > > > > > > idea > > > > > > > > was the Explorer proposal > > > > > > > > > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/ExplorerApp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another related issue to this subject is > > > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9440, but again I think > > > > > XWIKI-10928 > > > > > > > > <http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928> improved the > problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Caty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Guillaume Lerouge < > > > > > > guillaume(a)xwiki.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Devs, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm currently testing XE 6.2, it's a great release, I

> the > > > > new > > > > > > > look a > > > > > > > > > lot - well done guys! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a quick remark that is related to the new

> of > > > the > > > > > > > "Create" > > > > > > > > > button. I think we should move the "create wiki" and > "create > > > > space" > > > > > > > > options > > > > > > > > > from where they are located now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The "Create wiki" button could be moved under the list

> wikis > > > > on > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > page: http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We would probably need a similar "space index" page with > the > > > > > "Create > > > > > > > > space" > > > > > > > > > button there, a bit like what we have on the dashboard

> > > > http:// > > > > > > > > > <server>/xwiki/bin/view/Dashboard/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The objective being that when doing those create

> they > > > > > would > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > done with the context of the wikis / spaces that already > exist. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is also a bit confusing for users is that since > creating a > > > > new > > > > > > > wiki > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > much much bigger and less frequent than creating a new > page, > > > the > > > > > > action > > > > > > > > > should not be available from every single page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This issue has become much more salient than before to

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