Re: [xwiki-devs] [Contrib] Jira project for a new Syntax Highlighting Module

Hi all, First, I'm sorry Edy if I'm not able to produce the quality level you expect. I wanted initially to have only one issue fixed in that PR but I pushed two new commits in my fork and I didn't realized it was on the same branch, and so GitHub automatically updated the PR. It was not intended. I'm not sure though that it was necessary to have 4 or 5 comments about that in the PR. I'd like to contribute following the best practices but, as Caleb explained, we have deadlines and we have to be sure it will allow us to release the new version in time (meaning we'd like to agree on the acceptable quality level). Otherwise, we'll have to remove some features of the Web IDE. Finally, from my point of view, I know it isn't true but it's a bit strange to make a proposal about moving it into xwiki-platform and work on the extension yourself, in this thread while we are trying to contribute and make some changes.

Thanks, Yann Cet e-mail a été envoyé depuis un ordinateur protégé par Avast. www.avast.com <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:36 AM, vincent(a)massol.net wrote: > Hi Caleb and Edy, > > On 18 Dec 2015 at 09:02:17, Caleb James DeLisle (cjd(a)cjdns.fr(mailto: > cjd(a)cjdns.fr)) wrote: > >> Hey Edy, >> >> Thanks for your point of view on this. I understand that you're feeling > like >> I'm attacking you or applying pressure, I think this is a reasonable > feeling >> because what I'm asking is something that has not been asked before. >> >> Please though be very careful to read my words only exactly as they are. >> You refer to pressure which I applied offline but if you look at the > exact words >> I said, I was asking "when will it be reviewed?", because I have to plan > around >> a deadline. I fully understand your mistaking that for a mix of words > intended >> to make you work quickly, we all mix these up, it's part of being human. > The sad >> result of this is you feel you've complied to pressure and I only needed > the >> answer to a question so I could plan. >> >> On the topic of quality, I understand your position but please also > understand >> mine, I personally maintain a significant size software project, I know > there >> are things which are unacceptable. I also know a lot of things which > could be >> better but I will accept them anyway (often with a suggestion to improve > for >> next time). I feel a little bit insulted that my judgement is not > considered >> good enough for your extension, or that I am not trusted to clean up if > I make >> a mess and things actually break. > > Just on this point, if someone should feel insulted it’s Yann I guess :) > As I mentioned in a previous email, I’d really like if Yann could tell us > how he’d like to proceed (since he’s the one coding and doing the PRs > afterall) and if there’s anything that bothers him with the way his PRs > have been handled (and that we should improve). > > Regarding yourself Caleb, we (other core committers) obviously trust you a > lot, this is why you’re a core committer :) > > More generally: Could everyone please stop feeling insulted and could we > work together in a nice way, using nice words to each others? :) We’re all > in the same boat after all and we’re all driving to making the XWiki > ecosystem better. Let’s work better together :) (private joke intended). > > And Merry Christmas to all! > > Thanks > -Vincent > > >> What this all boils down to in the end is I am against a deadline with 3 > choices: >> 1. Fork your extension and re-package it into the WebIDE >> 2. Lose the SyntaxHighlighting feature in order to ship >> 3. Make a PR and hope for the best, possibly v0.12 of WebIDE will not be > releasable. >> >> I hate 1 and 2, I want so much to do 3 but I need some assurance that > you will >> understand my situation and be willing to share the decision making > about acceptable >> quality level. >> >> >> Is this something we can do ? >> >> Caleb >> >> >> >> On 17/12/15 17:35, Eduard Moraru wrote: >>> Hi Caleb, >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 3:51 PM, Caleb James DeLisle wrote: >>> >>>> also be available to the application, on release. If we desynchronize >>>>> them, the application will most likely be left behind. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I interpret your words to mean: we want to keep them merged in order > to >>>> conscript any contributors (meaning us) into doing additional > maintanence. >>>> >>>> Let me be clear. >>>> We have until Christmas to work on this and after that we will be > done. >>>> If we are held up because you want to block us until we do other > things, I >>>> feel that we are being abused and extorted for work. >>>> More concretely, if this involves any kind of discussion or > back-and-forth >>>> which lasts until Christmas, we will simply miss our objective and not >>>> solve our objectives. >>>> >>>> >>>> * We can split this into 2 extensions as we discussed, I am willing to >>>> proceed with the same repository/JIRA. >>>> * We can test the result and verify that there are no changes to the >>>> frontend version for the user. >>>> * We cannot do this within the given time requirement as long as > there is >>>> NO BIKESHEDDING. >>>> ** An example of bikeshedding is here: >>>> https://github.com/xwiki-contrib/wiki-editor-devtools/pull/3 >>>> ** What makes it bikeshedding is the fact that the complaints are > about >>>> process or "a better way to do it", not code which is seriously > dangerous >>>> to accept. >>>> >>>> >>>> I want to collaborate on this, what I don't want is to be in a > gatekeeper >>>> relationship in 1 week and then fail at my objective because of that. >>>> Please let me know if this is ok for you. >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Caleb >>>> >>>> >>> I am sorry you feel that way. >>> >>> Let me start of by saying that I, personally, felt insulted by your >>> attitude. >>> >>> On the particular case of >>> https://github.com/xwiki-contrib/wiki-editor-devtools/pull/3 , after > your >>> continuous pressure in an offline discussion, I dropped whatever I was >>> working on at the time and made time to review the PR that you have >>> mentioned. As mentioned in the review, there were 3 issues jammed into > one >>> single PR, there were individual aspects to fix for each issue and yes, >>> there was code that was seriously dangerous to accept, as it would >>> destabilize the feature and introduce bugs (like the disabling of the >>> editor approach). If all you saw from that review was "bikeshedding", > then >>> perhaps I waisted my time. >>> >>> Of course I understand the frustration of going back and forward in a > PR >>> review. However, you must also understand that the same frustration > applies >>> to the reviewer as well. Out of curiosity, I did a Google search on the >>> topic of how others use PRs (as project owners) and came up with this >>> interesting study[1]. Scanning through it reveals that others have the > same >>> issues in finding the time to review PRs, that they value greatly the >>> quality of the contribution and maintaining the quality of the > project's >>> code after the contribution is accepted. Other interesting facts can be >>> observed in that report, but what I get from it is that it's not > trivial to >>> maintain a project and bashing someone for taking the time to help you > is >>> plain rude. >>> >>> Another thing I don`t understand is why you consider this to be an >>> unilateral thing, i.e. the fault/job of the maintainer. There are > numerous >>> guides (ex. [2] - just read the headings) in how to do > contributions/Pull >>> Requests. They all boil down to a simple principle: The more you > complicate >>> the life of the reviewer (with a messy PR), the longer it will take for >>> that PR to be applied (back and forward discussions on things that > need to >>> be fixed). >>> >>> Going down the rabbit hole, I also noticed this interesting article[3] > on >>> how GitHub's "Merge Pull Request" button is considered "harmful". It >>> discusses exactly this friction/frustration that rises from back and >>> forwards discussions on a PR until the quality of the contribution > reaches >>> an acceptable level. The way GitHub drives the contribution flow is > that >>> the contributor is the one responsible for ensuring that his > contribution >>> respects the guidelines and policies of the project and that the > quality is >>> good; the reviewer is simply a referee that gives the green light when > all >>> is good. The article seems to suggests that the reviewer goes beyond > the >>> referee status and also starts fixing the > (code/style/documentation/etc.) >>> problems of the contribution, finally applying it, thus giving credit > to >>> the contributor. It is an interesting approach and, as far as I can >>> understand from your message, is something that you would like very > much, >>> unfortunately I don`t see it as being realistic, since a project's >>> maintainers can usually be counted on one hard and the workload > required >>> for such an approach does not leave room for other things in the >>> life/day-job of the maintainer. The "abuse", "extortion", > "conscription" >>> and "additional maintenance" you were mentioning above would only be >>> shifted on the shoulders of the project maintainer because of the lack > of >>> quality in the contribution he has just blindly accepted. >>> >>> You have to understand that nobody is trying to sabotage your > schedules and >>> that any problem can be resolved by discussing it, not by giving > ultimatums. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Eduard >>> >>> ---------- >>> [1] >>> > http://gousios.gr/blog/How-do-project-owners-use-pull-requests-on-Github/ >>> [2] http://blog.ploeh.dk/2015/01/15/10-tips-for-better-pull-requests/ >>> [3] >>> > http://blog.spreedly.com/2014/06/24/merge-pull-request-considered-harmful/#… >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 17/12/15 09:25, vincent(a)massol.net wrote: >>>> >>>>> I agree with Edy that it’s better to release them together: * > Simplifies >>>>> a lot the matrix compatibility tests * Ensure they’re in sync * > Simplify >>>>> release processes >>>>> >>>>> Thanks -Vincent On 16 Dec 2015 at 19:01:38, Eduard Moraru ( >>>>> enygma2002(a)gmail.com) wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Caleb, >>>>> >>>>> (just saw your reply) >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 6:19 PM, Caleb James DeLisle >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> They're going to have distinct release cycles >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This is exactly what I hope to avoid by not separating the code from > the >>>>> application. This way, whatever improvements you bring to the code, > will >>>>> also be available to the application, on release. If we > desynchronize them, >>>>> the application will most likely be left behind. >>>>> >>>>> Also, it will give you a way be constantly reminded that the code > module >>>>> is used by other projects as well, and should remain generic enough > and, at >>>>> the same time, it will not bring any overload since the application > itself >>>>> is extremely basic to maintain. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, Eduard >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> so I think the least ugly thing to do is have 2 projects. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, Caleb >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 16/12/15 17:12, vincent(a)massol.net wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 16 Dec 2015 at 16:56:57, Yann Flory (yann.flory(a)xwiki.com > (mailto: >>>>>>> yann.flory(a)xwiki.com)) wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello devs, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In order to be able to use the CodeMirror editor in other > extensions, >>>>>>>> we'd like to split the Syntax Highlighting application in two > parts (Cf >>>>>>>> http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/WIKIEDITOR-37) A new extension, > Syntax >>>>>>>> Highlighting UI Module, would be created and it would provides > the ability >>>>>>>> to transform a given textarea into a CodeMirror editor. The > current >>>>>>>> extension would keep the part which detect all textareas in > 'edit' mode and >>>>>>>> transform them into CodeMirror editors (with a dependency on >>>>>>>> the new extension). If this is accepted, we'll need a new Jira > project >>>>>>>> for the module. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Note: We create a jira project per repo, I don’t think we need 2 > jira >>>>>>> projects. We could have 2 jira “components” though. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks -Vincent