30 Sep
2014
30 Sep
'14
11:56 a.m.
Hi Edy,
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:07 AM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Hi,
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
keep
I fully agree with this. However, I see organizations using XWiki every day
that
Again, it's not about preventing users from creating new wikis. My proposal
is about moving an infrequent action (at least compared to the "create
page" action) to a better-suited location. I don't see how that's not
empowering users.
Also, XWiki is a tool that is supposed to improve collaboration, not
Hi Caty,
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
re-add
Hi,
So I think is a good idea to provide the ability to create
wikis/spaces/page on their Indexes pages. In the case of Wiki Manager
this
> was removed in http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9490 but if we it
> we could standardize the creation of entities in their context (just
like
we do it
on ColorThemes WebHome or on on Blog.WebHome).
Exactly :-) I'm +1 for this.
But even if we make this improvement, I still
would want to have the
ability to create wikis/spaces/pages in the Add menu.
As I've said before, I don't agree with this. Though I might be ok to the "Add space" action in there, with
the improvements suggested by Edy,
I
strongly believe that the "Create new
wiki" feature shouldn't be there.
It's an infrequent action with strong consequences. It should be
available
as a tool from the main wiki, but definitely not
from every page. Again,
how often does any user create a new wiki? Even for a large organization,
it will be mostly admins, and it will happen maybe a couple times a week
after XWiki is launched internally.
So in the end we have an action that is performed by *very few people, a
handful of times*, and we put it on *every single page in the main wiki
and
all sub-wikis*. I'm afraid that keeping all 3
actions in the same button
is
consistency for consistency's sake, but it
just doesn't match XWiki
users'
behavior, nor their expectations.
Besides consistency, what is the rationale for having all 3 actions in
one
place? How do you back up your reasoning with
actual user behavior? In
your
personal experience, how often do you use the
"create wiki" button in its
current location?
Big -1 for this!
It`s the *whole point why we`ve introduced Workspaces* (or wikis, or call
it whatever you like). The whole idea is to empower the user to create his
workspace where he can freely collaborate with his peers and install
whatever applications they want. You do have to consider the fact that you
may have been exposed to tight organizational usages of XWiki where its
users are the slaves of the admin and don`t/can`t really do anything
without his approval. However, I personally (and hope am not alone here),
want to make XWiki more than this and to allow it to be used by more
open-minded organizations that empower their users and their collaboration.
diminish it into "misticism" by calling the
simple task of creating a wiki
(which is part of XWiki's data model and, with a new model implementation
could be even more seamlessly integrated without using primitive/rigid
storage solutions such as databases) "an infrequent action with strong
consequences".
I'm calling it an infrequent action because it IS an infrequent action.
Look at how we use it ourselves on the XWiki.org family of sites for
instance: how often do you create a new sub-wiki, as opposed to adding new
pages? There's nothing mystic about looking at basic data points.
Oh, and don`t forget flavors, that are supposed to build even more on the
above mentioned, so yes, you do need to create wikis
easily and yes, you do
need to promote that in the UI so that user's discover it and not bury it
in some livetable in a space/page that users are intimidated by.
Not bury it, put it in a logical place: the create button next to the list
of items of the same type that already exist.
According to the "promote it in the UI" logic, why not give every single
option in XWiki a button on all pages? It would be amazing.
<http://colemancountyinstitute.wikispaces.com/file/view/microsoft.jpg/146633399/microsoft.jpg>
Thanks,
Guillaume
Perhaps it's just a problem of perception at this point.
Thanks,
Eduard
structure
> > > their content.
> > >
> > > Right now, when looking at existing installs, I often see cases
where
search
with
have
value
> > of
> > > > > 'Add'.
> > > > >
> > > > > Having all the option (Create Wiki, Create Space, Create Page)
in
wikis
about
IMO is not one way or the other (and I don't agree with the duplication
Homepages/Indexes)
argument). One way of creating entries (the Add
menu way) is more
generic,
> while the other way (contextual form placement on the is
treated
specific to the entity type.
I don't mind having more that one button for an action in specific cases.
But I don't think the "Create wiki" action is one of those cases.
Thanks,
Guillaume
Thanks,
Caty
On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Eduard Moraru <
enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Guillaume,
> > >
> > > I have started a new discussion [1] on the topic of the new
location
> of
> > > the
> > > > Add menu in Flamingo which is, IMO, the real problem here.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'll answer on this thread.
> > >
> > > However, I stand by my point that creating a wiki or a space are
> > different
> > > actions compared from adding a new page and as thus should be > differently.
>
> Regarding your actual proposal, I`d be inclined to -1 it, as IMO it
makes
> > basic CRUD operations on the wiki model
harder to perform (i.e.
harder
> to
> > > find), and what we`d like to do is help people create content and
> > > structure, not the other way around.
> > >
> >
> > I agree with the logic but I'm not sure I'm 100% in line with the
> > conclusion. As you said, the goal is to help users create and > > users
> > > created several spaces with similar names (which doesn't really
help
> > > structure information). This is
mainly because they didn't know
that
a
the
the
> > space with a similar name already
existed. Similarly, you wouldn't
want
>
someone to create a "Communication" wiki if the
"MarketingCommunication"
> > wiki already exists.
> >
>
> What I read from your example above is that we can improve the create
> page/space/wiki UIs to have a section that does a kind of suggest to > user based on the name of the new entry he
wants to create. We could
have
> something like "The
pages/spaces/wikis/etc. above already exist. Are
you
> > sure you want to create a new <userEnteredEntityName>
> page/space/wiki/etc.
> > instead of using one of the above?"
> >
> > We could go as far as to force the user to check a checkbox before > > "Create" button becomes
enabled/clickable. This could either be a
> > configuration option, based on the desire/intent/wishes of the admin
of
> > that wiki/space.
> >
> > With a bit of effort, this could be done consistently for the entire
> > "/create/" action and its plugged-in template providers.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > This is why I'm proposing to place "Create" buttons in
context. I
see
at
they
> > > would actually be easier to find and understand for end-users.
> > >
> >
> > This will not solve anything if the user is already too lazy to > least 3 places where this could be useful:
>
> - "Create wiki" button on http://
<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/
> > - "Create space" button on hypothetical
> > http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/SpacesIndex
> > (similar to what we already have on the Dashboard)
> > - "Create user" button on http://<server>
> > /xwiki/bin/view/Main/UserDirectory
> >
> > So from my point of view, by putting those buttons on those pages > for
> > existing entries before creating one. The one he wishes to create
might
be
> on the second page of the livetable and the lazy user will just go
ahead
> > and create the similar entry.
> >
> > For this to be relatively effective in reducing duplication, we would
> have
> > to implement something on the lines of what I have described above > the
> > "reuse sugestion".
> >
> > I`m not particularly against this approach (of adding create options
in
the
> list), since we were already doing this at some point and in some
places,
> > but I`m still -1 for scattering the create logic in various locations
> > instead of using the centralized "Add" menu. If we don`t, we will
99999 pages all inside the Main space and that's
it. How`s that for a
wiki
> gardening nightmare? :)
>
> Thanks,
> Eduard
>
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Guillaume
> >
> > Thanks,
> > > Eduard
> > >
> > > ----------
> > > [1] http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/jqbcj4p4ryc56sms
> > >
> > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> > > valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > We improved the things a bit by implementing
> > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928
> > > > Now users can more rapidly create pages by using the implicit > the
> > > > menu
> > > > > is important IMO since you can create spaces (and wikis) from
> > anywhere
> > > in
> > > > > the wiki. You don't need to be in a certain location to do
this
> > action.
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree about having a Space Index of some sort and have a
> consistent
> > > way
> > > > > of localizing/navigating Wikis/Spaces/Pages. Something similar
to
> > this
> > > > idea
> > > > > was the Explorer proposal
> > > > >
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/ExplorerApp
> > > > >
> > > > > Another related issue to this subject is
> > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-9440, but again I think
> > XWIKI-10928
> > > > > <http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10928> improved the
problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Caty
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
> > > guillaume(a)xwiki.com
> > > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Devs,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm currently testing XE 6.2, it's a great release,
I love
the
new
> > > look a
> > > > > lot - well done guys!
> > > > >
> > > > > I have a quick remark that is related to the new location of
the
> > > > "Create"
> > > > > > button. I think we should move the "create wiki"
and "create
> space"
> > > > > options
> > > > > > from where they are located now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The "Create wiki" button could be moved under the
list of > on
> > > this
> > > > > > page: http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We would probably need a similar "space index"
page with the
> > "Create
> > > > > space"
> > > > > > button there, a bit like what we have on the dashboard
now:
> http://
> > > > > > <server>/xwiki/bin/view/Dashboard/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The objective being that when doing those create actions,
they
> > would
> > > be
> > > > > > done with the context of the wikis / spaces that already
exist.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What is also a bit confusing for users is that since
creating a
new
> > > wiki
> > > > is
> > > > > much much bigger and less frequent than creating a new page,
the
> > action
> > > > > should not be available from every single page.
> > > > >
> > > > > This issue has become much more salient than before to me
because
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > new location of the "Create" button. What's
your opinion > > this?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Guillaume