[xwiki-devs] Technical name for "Application Within Minutes"

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Marius Dumitru Florea

26 Oct 2011 26 Oct '11

7:14 p.m.

Hi devs, We need to decide on a technical name for the "Application Within Minutes", i.e. the name of the platform module and the name of the space that will hold the Application Within Minutes pages. For now I committed my code in xwiki-platform-applicationWithinMinutes and I used the "ApplicationWithinMinutes" space name but this is not consistent with the way we named modules and spaces so far. Do you have any suggestions? We could use simply xwiki-platform-application, but it collides with xwiki-platform-application-manager, and I don't think it's a good idea to merge them. Is application manager still used? Is it going to be replaced by the extension manager? Thanks, Marius

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Vincent Massol

28 Oct 28 Oct

6:53 p.m.

Hi Marius, On Oct 26, 2011, at 7:14 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea wrote:

...

AFAIK the Application Manager was about defining an XClass for grouping pages together and forming an application (with a version, description, etc). The Extension Manager is independent of this, it's just about installing/upgrading/removing extensions. An application is just one type of extension. So Application Manager is still a valid notion and we need it. I can think of several use cases: - Ability to list all applications in the wiki - Ability to tell a user that the page he's editing is part of an application and ensure that he really wants to modify the application (which may require some merging later on if he upgrades the application) - Ability to remove an application - Ability to list applications in the Application Panel we discussed a while ago (we talked about mapping an Application to a space but in practice it doesn't have to be limited to that) - Ability to export an application from the wiki as an extension and publish it directly on extensions.xwiki.org. I envision a page listing all applications with an export button next to them. AppWithinMinute would need to use the Application Manager IMO so that it puts all pages it creates under an Application descriptor. So yes while AppWithinMinutes and Application Manager could be grouped together there's no reason not to keep them separate I think. So ….. here are some ideas: * xwiki-platform-application/ --> "Application" space, i.e. what defines an application (this is the current Application Manager) Then we have several possibilities for "AppWithinMinutes": A) xwiki-platform-appwizard/ or xwiki-platform-application-wizard/--> "Application Wizard" or Application space B) xwiki-platform-appwithinminutes/ or xwiki-platform-application-within-minutes/--> "Application Within Minutes" or Application space C) xwiki-platform-appcreator/ or xwiki-platform-application-creator/ --> "Application Creator" or Application space D) xwiki-platform- appgenerator/ or xwiki-platform-application-generator --> "Application Generator" or Application space E) xwiki-platform-appfoundy/ or xwiki-platform-application-foundry --> "Application Foundry" or Application space BTW we should probably move to using spaces in Space names when they are compound names (for example: "Annotation Code" rather than "AnnotationCode") since they are human-readable names and not ids. My preference goes to A) (the xwiki-platform-appwizard/ short form and "Application Wizard" space name) since I think "Wizard" is the most well known terminology for what "AppWithinMinutes" is. Thanks -Vincent

Ludovic Dubost

8:43 p.m.

2011/10/28 Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net>

...

Hi Marius, On Oct 26, 2011, at 7:14 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea wrote:

I don't have a strong opinion on the technical name of the component module. However the name of the space used is more than technical. It is the branding of the application so it's a very important choice that we make here. AppWithinMinutes is an important application for XWiki Enterprise as it is the feature that will show all users that XWiki's flexibility is something that is also for them and that actually brings great benefits without being too complex for non tech users. We should make sure we can communicate well around this feature. There are no proposals that are not mentioning the notion of "Application". I agree with that as we want to push the idea of Application here more than just pure form data. Now there is no proposal that says "App" and not "Application". I think "App" is more fun. It's clearly identified in people's mind. And it's shorter which makes the name less cumbersome. Now if we go this way we mostly have to discuss the suffix. In the "classical names", you've proposed Wizard, Generator, Foundry. You could have added "Builder". Now all these names are a bit overused. True they are clear, but they don't have a lot of originality. They also don't convey the fact that the building of the app is "fast". That's where "AppWithinMinutes" is better. It's more original, it conveys the fast aspect in it's name. We could also use the "Wiki" aspect of our way of building app: "WikiAppBuilder" or "WikiAppGenerator" or "WikiAppCreator". I believe it's very important that our App tool is different than anybody else's App tool. So I'm: +1 for AppWithinMinutes I could be +0.5 for WikiAppBuilder or WikiAppCreator I'm -1 for the others which have no originality. I'm -2 for "Application", I'm -2 for "Generator" or "Wizard" (we don't generate an app, we create or build it).

...

BTW we should probably move to using spaces in Space names when they are compound names (for example: "Annotation Code" rather than "AnnotationCode") since they are human-readable names and not ids. I'm not sure about that. The use of space makes very ugly urls. If we were

to change our current policy toward space naming (which is one work or closer to camel case), we probably should go the way of the CMSes which is app-within-minutes Ludovic

...

My preference goes to A) (the xwiki-platform-appwizard/ short form and "Application Wizard" space name) since I think "Wizard" is the most well known terminology for what "AppWithinMinutes" is. Thanks -Vincent _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

-- Ludovic Dubost Founder and CEO Blog: http://blog.ludovic.org/ XWiki: http://www.xwiki.com Skype: ldubost GTalk: ldubost

Vincent Massol

9:16 p.m.

On Oct 28, 2011, at 8:43 PM, Ludovic Dubost wrote:

...

2011/10/28 Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net>

Hi Marius, On Oct 26, 2011, at 7:14 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea wrote:

I think they all convey this idea of "fast". You use a Wizard because it's fast and everyone knows it. Same for Builder and Generator. Foundry doesn't convey that, true.

...

That's where "AppWithinMinutes" is better. It's more original, it conveys the fast aspect in it's name.

I agree it's more original.

...

We could also use the "Wiki" aspect of our way of building app: "WikiAppBuilder" or "WikiAppGenerator" or "WikiAppCreator".

For me there's a problem with these 2 ideas ("originality" and "wiki"): this is not our current practice for existing names. In no other module/component/space names/anywhere we use this notion of "originality" nor "wiki" (that would be really overkill since we're a wiki…:)). So next time someone proposes "PowerfulWikiScheduler" instead of "Scheduler" I don't see any reason we shouldn't accept it. Does it also mean we need to rename existing applications/spaces so that they are more "original"?

...

I believe it's very important that our App tool is different than anybody else's App tool. So I'm: +1 for AppWithinMinutes I could be +0.5 for WikiAppBuilder or WikiAppCreator I'm -1 for the others which have no originality. I'm -2 for "Application", I'm -2 for "Generator" or "Wizard" (we don't generate an app, we create or build it).

Why do you include "wizard" here: it doesn't contain either "create" or "build" in the name and in this regards is similar to "AppWithinMinutes" which doesn't have any of these words either? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizard_(software) "A software wizard or setup assistant is a user interface type that presents a user with a sequence of dialog boxes that lead the user through a series of well-defined steps." "Many web applications, for instance online booking sites, make use of the wizard paradigm to complete lengthy interactive processes, sometimes becoming similar to automated online assistants. Oracle Designer also uses wizards extensively." BTW this wikipedia page is also mentioning the word "Assistant". Thus "ApplicationAssistant" is an option too.

...

to change our current policy toward space naming (which is one work or closer to camel case), we probably should go the way of the CMSes which is app-within-minutes

I think URLs (which are technical names) and Space names (which are human-readable names) don't have to be the same (same as Page Title vs Page Names). I'm currently against app-within-minutes as a human-readable space name (this would mean "annotation-code", etc). For me this is a technical name (especially starting with a lowercase letter). I'd like to know what others think. If most people think that "AppWithinMinutes" or "App Within Minutes" is fine then I won't oppose it. Thanks -Vincent

...

Ludovic > My preference goes to A) (the xwiki-platform-appwizard/ short form and > "Application Wizard" space name) since I think "Wizard" is the most well > known terminology for what "AppWithinMinutes" is. > > Thanks > -Vincent

Ludovic Dubost

10:46 p.m.

...

Now all these names are a bit overused. True they are clear, but they

don't

have a lot of originality. They also don't convey the fact that the

building

of the app is "fast".

It's not as strong I believe

...

I think they all convey this idea of "fast". You use a Wizard because it's fast and everyone knows it. Same for Builder and Generator. Foundry doesn't convey that, true.

I think you use Wizard because it guides you to do something you cannot do. It's not the same as fast. A wizard can actually be very long, even though indeed in most of the cases it is better.

...

That's where "AppWithinMinutes" is better. It's more original, it conveys the fast aspect in it's name.

I agree it's more original.

We could also use the "Wiki" aspect of our way of building app: "WikiAppBuilder" or "WikiAppGenerator" or "WikiAppCreator".

I don't think it's the same. AppWithinMinutes does not describe a characteristic of the tool (like powerful for the wiki scheduler) but more what you can do with the tool (build an app in a few minutes). It's not that different with the Scheduler which allows you to Schedule jobs. Suppose your scheduler has something REALLY different, yes then indeed it would be interesting to put that in the name. Let's say "Script Scheduler" because it schedules Scripts instead of Jobs.

...

Does it also mean we need to rename existing applications/spaces so that they are more "original"?

Anyway, I think here it's important to be original because it's our differentiator. We want to give this a bigger push than other features of XWiki.

...

"Application",

I'm -2 for "Generator" or "Wizard" (we don't generate an app, we create

build it).

For me it's much weaker than Builder and Creator which has this creation process which is nice to have. But Wizard is also acceptable, although I think everybody uses it for anything. As I said before it's conveys more the fact that you are helped than the fact that you can do things fast. I also feel it's a little negative. "Wizards" are for "people that cannot do it themselves". Now we could go for "AppsForDummies".

...

> BTW we should probably move to using spaces in Space names when they are > compound names (for example: "Annotation Code" rather than

"AnnotationCode")

> since they are human-readable names and not ids. > > I'm not sure about that. The use of space makes very ugly urls. If we

were

to change our current policy toward space naming (which is one work or closer to camel case), we probably should go the way of the CMSes which

app-within-minutes

I think URLs (which are technical names) and Space names (which are human-readable names) don't have to be the same (same as Page Title vs Page Names). I don't agree here. We have this issue when the title is changed. If they

are completely different it can create confusion (when people actually read the URL, but unfortunately it happens). Now you live with it when you don't want to change the URL for linking reasons (although it would be good to have automatic redirects on page renaming which could allow more of that), it's also ok when the URL name is in english and the page name in french, but it's another story to consciously make them unrelated. Here if we have the URL saying AppWizard and the title being "App Within Minutes" it will really be weird.

...

I'm currently against app-within-minutes as a human-readable space name (this would mean "annotation-code", etc). For me this is a technical name (especially starting with a lowercase letter). I don't like it either but I'm mentionning it because it's the CMS

pseudo-standard. It's not consistent with our standard. But I don't like the spaces because of the effect on URLs

...

I'd like to know what others think. If most people think that "AppWithinMinutes" or "App Within Minutes" is fine then I won't oppose it.

I'd also like to know what other think, especially native english speakers. Does "AppWithinMinutes" convey something positive to you ? Is it meaningfull ? Or do you find it confusing and AppBuilder/Creator/Wizard would be better ? Ludovic

...

Thanks -Vincent

Ludovic > My preference goes to A) (the xwiki-platform-appwizard/ short form and > "Application Wizard" space name) since I think "Wizard" is the most

well

> known terminology for what "AppWithinMinutes" is. > > Thanks > -Vincent

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

-- Ludovic Dubost Founder and CEO Blog: http://blog.ludovic.org/ XWiki: http://www.xwiki.com Skype: ldubost GTalk: ldubost

Marius Dumitru Florea

31 Oct 31 Oct

8:50 a.m.

On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 10:16 PM, Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:

...

On Oct 28, 2011, at 8:43 PM, Ludovic Dubost wrote:

2011/10/28 Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net>

Hi Marius, On Oct 26, 2011, at 7:14 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea wrote:

I think they all convey this idea of "fast". You use a Wizard because it's fast and everyone knows it. Same for Builder and Generator. Foundry doesn't convey that, true.

That's where "AppWithinMinutes" is better. It's more original, it conveys the fast aspect in it's name.

I agree it's more original.

We could also use the "Wiki" aspect of our way of building app: "WikiAppBuilder" or "WikiAppGenerator" or "WikiAppCreator".

to change our current policy toward space naming (which is one work or closer to camel case), we probably should go the way of the CMSes which is app-within-minutes

...

I'd like to know what others think. If most people think that "AppWithinMinutes" or "App Within Minutes" is fine then I won't oppose it.

I prefer camel cased space names. I'm +1 for AppWithinMinutes space name and xwiki-platform-appwithinminutes module name. Thanks, Marius

...

Thanks -Vincent

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

Guillaume Lerouge

2 Nov 2 Nov

10:16 a.m.

Hi, On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 8:50 AM, Marius Dumitru Florea < mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:

...

On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 10:16 PM, Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:

On Oct 28, 2011, at 8:43 PM, Ludovic Dubost wrote: > 2011/10/28 Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> > >> Hi Marius, >> >> On Oct 26, 2011, at 7:14 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea wrote: >> >>> Hi devs, >>> >>> We need to decide on a technical name for the "Application Within >>> Minutes", i.e. the name of the platform module and the name of the >>> space that will hold the Application Within Minutes pages. For now I >>> committed my code in xwiki-platform-applicationWithinMinutes and I >>> used the "ApplicationWithinMinutes" space name but this is not >>> consistent with the way we named modules and spaces so far. Do you >>> have any suggestions? >>> >>> We could use simply xwiki-platform-application, but it collides with >>> xwiki-platform-application-manager, and I don't think it's a good idea >>> to merge them. Is application manager still used? Is it going to be >>> replaced by the extension manager? >> >> AFAIK the Application Manager was about defining an XClass for grouping >> pages together and forming an application (with a version, description, >> etc). >> >> The Extension Manager is independent of this, it's just about >> installing/upgrading/removing extensions. An application is just one

type of

>> extension. >> >> So Application Manager is still a valid notion and we need it. I can

think

>> of several use cases: >> - Ability to list all applications in the wiki >> - Ability to tell a user that the page he's editing is part of an >> application and ensure that he really wants to modify the application

(which

>> may require some merging later on if he upgrades the application) >> - Ability to remove an application >> - Ability to list applications in the Application Panel we discussed a >> while ago (we talked about mapping an Application to a space but in

practice

>> it doesn't have to be limited to that) >> - Ability to export an application from the wiki as an extension and >> publish it directly on extensions.xwiki.org. I envision a page

listing all

>> applications with an export button next to them. >> >> AppWithinMinute would need to use the Application Manager IMO so that

>> puts all pages it creates under an Application descriptor. >> >> So yes while AppWithinMinutes and Application Manager could be grouped >> together there's no reason not to keep them separate I think. >> >> So ….. here are some ideas: >> >> * xwiki-platform-application/ --> "Application" space, i.e. what

defines an

>> application (this is the current Application Manager) >> >> Then we have several possibilities for "AppWithinMinutes": >> >> A) xwiki-platform-appwizard/ or xwiki-platform-application-wizard/--> >> "Application Wizard" or Application space >> B) xwiki-platform-appwithinminutes/ or >> xwiki-platform-application-within-minutes/--> "Application Within

Minutes"

>> or Application space >> C) xwiki-platform-appcreator/ or xwiki-platform-application-creator/

-->

>> "Application Creator" or Application space >> D) xwiki-platform- appgenerator/ or

xwiki-platform-application-generator

>> --> "Application Generator" or Application space >> E) xwiki-platform-appfoundy/ or xwiki-platform-application-foundry --> >> "Application Foundry" or Application space >> > > I don't have a strong opinion on the technical name of the component

module.

> However the name of the space used is more than technical. It is the > branding of the application so it's a very important choice that we make > here. > > AppWithinMinutes is an important application for XWiki Enterprise as it

> the feature that will show all users that XWiki's flexibility is

something

> that is also for them and that actually brings great benefits without

being

> too complex for non tech users. We should make sure we can communicate

well

> around this feature. > > There are no proposals that are not mentioning the notion of

"Application".

> I agree with that as we want to push the idea of Application here more

than

> just pure form data. > > Now there is no proposal that says "App" and not "Application". I think > "App" is more fun. It's clearly identified in people's mind. And it's > shorter which makes the name less cumbersome. > > Now if we go this way we mostly have to discuss the suffix. In the > "classical names", you've proposed Wizard, Generator, Foundry. You could > have added "Builder". > > Now all these names are a bit overused. True they are clear, but they

don't

> have a lot of originality. They also don't convey the fact that the

building

of the app is "fast".

I think they all convey this idea of "fast". You use a Wizard because

it's fast and everyone knows it. Same for Builder and Generator. Foundry doesn't convey that, true.

> That's where "AppWithinMinutes" is better. It's more original, it

conveys

the fast aspect in it's name.

I agree it's more original.

We could also use the "Wiki" aspect of our way of building app: "WikiAppBuilder" or "WikiAppGenerator" or "WikiAppCreator".

For me there's a problem with these 2 ideas ("originality" and "wiki"):

this is not our current practice for existing names.

In no other module/component/space names/anywhere we use this notion of

"originality" nor "wiki" (that would be really overkill since we're a wiki…:)). So next time someone proposes "PowerfulWikiScheduler" instead of "Scheduler" I don't see any reason we shouldn't accept it.

Does it also mean we need to rename existing applications/spaces so that

they are more "original"?

> I believe it's very important that our App tool is different than

anybody

> else's App tool. So I'm: > > +1 for AppWithinMinutes > > I could be > > +0.5 for WikiAppBuilder or WikiAppCreator > > I'm -1 for the others which have no originality. I'm -2 for

"Application",

> I'm -2 for "Generator" or "Wizard" (we don't generate an app, we create

build it).

Why do you include "wizard" here: it doesn't contain either "create" or

"build" in the name and in this regards is similar to "AppWithinMinutes" which doesn't have any of these words either?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizard_(software) "A software wizard or setup assistant is a user interface type that

presents a user with a sequence of dialog boxes that lead the user through a series of well-defined steps."

"Many web applications, for instance online booking sites, make use of

the wizard paradigm to complete lengthy interactive processes, sometimes becoming similar to automated online assistants. Oracle Designer also uses wizards extensively."

BTW this wikipedia page is also mentioning the word "Assistant". Thus

"ApplicationAssistant" is an option too.

>> BTW we should probably move to using spaces in Space names when they

are

>> compound names (for example: "Annotation Code" rather than

"AnnotationCode")

>> since they are human-readable names and not ids. >> >> I'm not sure about that. The use of space makes very ugly urls. If we

were

> to change our current policy toward space naming (which is one work or > closer to camel case), we probably should go the way of the CMSes which

app-within-minutes

I think URLs (which are technical names) and Space names (which are

human-readable names) don't have to be the same (same as Page Title vs Page Names).

I'm currently against app-within-minutes as a human-readable space name

(this would mean "annotation-code", etc). For me this is a technical name (especially starting with a lowercase letter).

I'd like to know what others think. If most people think that

"AppWithinMinutes" or "App Within Minutes" is fine then I won't oppose it. I prefer camel cased space names. I'm +1 for AppWithinMinutes space name and xwiki-platform-appwithinminutes module name.

+1 for this as well. Guillaume Thanks,

...

Marius

Thanks -Vincent > Ludovic > > >> My preference goes to A) (the xwiki-platform-appwizard/ short form and >> "Application Wizard" space name) since I think "Wizard" is the most

well

> known terminology for what "AppWithinMinutes" is. > > Thanks > -Vincent

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participants (4)

Guillaume Lerouge
Ludovic Dubost
Marius Dumitru Florea
Vincent Massol