12 Feb
2009
12 Feb
'09
6:05 p.m.
Hi Devs,
Currently officeimporter application has three levels of style filtering
options:
1. Strict: Remove all the styles presented in the original document except
for those that can be mapped directly into xwiki syntax
2. None: Keep all the styles (no filtering what so ever)
3. Moderate: Only keep those styles without which the output would be
drastically different from the original document (ex: alignments, image
widths etc.)
As you can see the third option (was my idea) is kind of hard to define and
can be confusing to the user as well. The first too options make a lot of
sense to the user and after discussing with vincent I decided to ask for a
vote to remove it.
Plus this is consistent with the officeimporter wysiwyg plugin which only
allows either to keep all the styles or remove everything.
Also, if we decide to remove the moderate filtering option, we can represent
the options by a checkbox (Filter Styles). Which should be the default
filtering criterion? I'm thinking it should be not to filter any styles so
that the output looks more or less like the original document.
Here's my +1.
WDYT?
Thanks.
12 Feb
12 Feb
6:25 p.m.
Hi,
On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Asiri Rathnayake <
asiri.rathnayake(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Devs,
Currently officeimporter application has three levels of style filtering
options:
1. Strict: Remove all the styles presented in the original document except
for those that can be mapped directly into xwiki syntax
2. None: Keep all the styles (no filtering what so ever)
3. Moderate: Only keep those styles without which the output would be
drastically different from the original document (ex: alignments, image
widths etc.)
As you can see the third option (was my idea) is kind of hard to define and
can be confusing to the user as well. The first too options make a lot of
sense to the user and after discussing with vincent I decided to ask for a
vote to remove it.
Plus this is consistent with the officeimporter wysiwyg plugin which only
allows either to keep all the styles or remove everything.
Also, if we decide to remove the moderate filtering option, we can
represent
the options by a checkbox (Filter Styles). Which should be the default
filtering criterion? I'm thinking it should be not to filter any styles so
that the output looks more or less like the original document.
Here's my +1.
+1 for removing "Moderate"
I think the default should be to apply the filter so that the syntax is kept
clean and the overall look consistent with other pages. While it doesn't
matter much if Word documents differ from one another, on a website having
page with different alignments and various colors schemes etc is not really
a good practice.
Thus to me standard should be uniformization, not the opposite.
Guillaume
WDYT?
Thanks.
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
--
Guillaume Lerouge
Product Manager - XWiki
Skype ID : wikibc
http://guillaumelerouge.com/
7:41 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-devs] [VOTE] Remove moderate style filtering option from office importer
Guillaume Lerouge wrote:
Hi,
On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Asiri Rathnayake <
asiri.rathnayake(a)gmail.com> wrote:
+1 (for removal and for Guillaume's argument)
--
Sergiu Dumitriu
http://purl.org/net/sergiu/
Hi Devs,
Currently officeimporter application has three levels of style filtering
options:
1. Strict: Remove all the styles presented in the original document except
for those that can be mapped directly into xwiki syntax
2. None: Keep all the styles (no filtering what so ever)
3. Moderate: Only keep those styles without which the output would be
drastically different from the original document (ex: alignments, image
widths etc.)
As you can see the third option (was my idea) is kind of hard to define and
can be confusing to the user as well. The first too options make a lot of
sense to the user and after discussing with vincent I decided to ask for a
vote to remove it.
Plus this is consistent with the officeimporter wysiwyg plugin which only
allows either to keep all the styles or remove everything.
Also, if we decide to remove the moderate filtering option, we can
represent
the options by a checkbox (Filter Styles). Which should be the default
filtering criterion? I'm thinking it should be not to filter any styles so
that the output looks more or less like the original document.
Here's my +1.
+1 for removing "Moderate"
I think the default should be to apply the filter so that the syntax is kept
clean and the overall look consistent with other pages. While it doesn't
matter much if Word documents differ from one another, on a website having
page with different alignments and various colors schemes etc is not really
a good practice.
Thus to me standard should be uniformization, not the opposite.
Guillaume
6:32 p.m.
On Feb 12, 2009, at 6:05 PM, Asiri Rathnayake wrote:
Hi Devs,
Currently officeimporter application has three levels of style
filtering
options:
1. Strict: Remove all the styles presented in the original document
except
for those that can be mapped directly into xwiki syntax
2. None: Keep all the styles (no filtering what so ever)
3. Moderate: Only keep those styles without which the output would be
drastically different from the original document (ex: alignments,
image
widths etc.)
As you can see the third option (was my idea) is kind of hard to
define and
can be confusing to the user as well. The first too options make a
lot of
sense to the user and after discussing with vincent I decided to ask
for a
vote to remove it.
Plus this is consistent with the officeimporter wysiwyg plugin which
only
allows either to keep all the styles or remove everything.
Also, if we decide to remove the moderate filtering option, we can
represent
the options by a checkbox (Filter Styles). Which should be the default
filtering criterion? I'm thinking it should be not to filter any
styles so
that the output looks more or less like the original document.
Here's my +1.
+1 to remove it and +1 to have the default be "no style filter".
Contrary to Guillaume I think this is what users will expect and since
most users will use the wysiwyg editor edit pages it won't matter at
all if the wiki syntax is clean or not for them. What will matter to
them though is that the images are the right sizes and that they have
to resize them manually when they import a document, that the
alignments are the same, etc.
Thanks
-Vincent
http://xwiki.com
http://xwiki.org
http://massol.net
13 Feb
13 Feb
7:32 a.m.
New subject: [xwiki-devs] [VOTE] Remove moderate style filtering option from office importer
+1 to remove Moderate filtering level.
+1 for having Strict as the default filtering level (I'm thinking that
we should educate our users and make them understand that most of the
time office content is not suited as it is for web)
Thanks,
Marius
Asiri Rathnayake wrote:
Hi Devs,
Currently officeimporter application has three levels of style filtering
options:
1. Strict: Remove all the styles presented in the original document except
for those that can be mapped directly into xwiki syntax
2. None: Keep all the styles (no filtering what so ever)
3. Moderate: Only keep those styles without which the output would be
drastically different from the original document (ex: alignments, image
widths etc.)
As you can see the third option (was my idea) is kind of hard to define and
can be confusing to the user as well. The first too options make a lot of
sense to the user and after discussing with vincent I decided to ask for a
vote to remove it.
Plus this is consistent with the officeimporter wysiwyg plugin which only
allows either to keep all the styles or remove everything.
Also, if we decide to remove the moderate filtering option, we can represent
the options by a checkbox (Filter Styles). Which should be the default
filtering criterion? I'm thinking it should be not to filter any styles so
that the output looks more or less like the original document.
Here's my +1.
WDYT?
Thanks.
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
8:07 a.m.
On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea <
mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
+1 to remove Moderate filtering level.
+1 for having Strict as the default filtering level (I'm thinking that
we should educate our users and make them understand that most of the
time office content is not suited as it is for web)
One thing worth to be mentioned is that with 'strict' filtering we currently
filter out image widths, heights, alignments and such (basically anything
that requires (%%) in wiki code) This means if a user imports a document
containing a lot of scaled-down / precisely-aligned images (or other stuff)
the output would look pretty screwed without the styles. And this might not
give the user a good impression about the officeimporter application.
Rather, if keep the 'no style filter' as the default, a default import would
at least be close to the original document. And the user will _have_ to set
the 'strict' filtering mode knowing what he is doing (thus the result is
acceptable).
This is only my POV.
Thanks.
- Asiri
8:14 a.m.
New subject: [xwiki-devs] [VOTE] Remove moderate style filtering option from office importer
Asiri Rathnayake wrote:
On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Marius Dumitru
Florea <
mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
+1 to remove Moderate filtering level.
+1 for having Strict as the default filtering level (I'm thinking that
we should educate our users and make them understand that most of the
time office content is not suited as it is for web)
One thing worth to be mentioned is that with 'strict' filtering we currently
filter out image widths, heights, alignments and such (basically anything that requires (%%) in wiki code) This means if a user
imports a document
You said:
"Strict: Remove all the styles presented in the original document except
for those that can be mapped directly into xwiki syntax"
Isn't (%%) xwiki syntax? I think so.
containing a lot of scaled-down / precisely-aligned
images (or other stuff)
the output would look pretty screwed without the styles. And this might not
give the user a good impression about the officeimporter application.
Rather, if keep the 'no style filter' as the default, a default import would
at least be close to the original document. And the user will _have_ to set
the 'strict' filtering mode knowing what he is doing (thus the result is
acceptable).
This is only my POV.
Thanks.
- Asiri
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
8:26 a.m.
On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea <
mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
Asiri Rathnayake wrote:
Well in that case we should not strip any styles at all... I mean everything
possible in xhtml can be represented in xwiki code.
The problem with (%%) is that when there are so many of them (when there are
so many styles / parameters set in the original office content) it's really
hard to read the generated wiki code (it's a mess).
That's why we filter those stuff that require (%%) in wiki code, to keep it
clean...
By "mapping directly into xwiki syntax" I meant those styles that do not
require additional parameters (%%). For an example, bold, italic etc. etc.
So 'strict filtering' --> no (%%)
Thanks.
- Asiri
On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Marius Dumitru
Florea <
mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
currently
+1 to remove Moderate filtering level.
+1 for having Strict as the default filtering level (I'm thinking that
we should educate our users and make them understand that most of the
time office content is not suited as it is for web)
One thing worth to be mentioned is that with 'strict' filtering we filter out image widths, heights, alignments and
such (basically anything
that requires (%%) in wiki code) This means if a
user imports a document
You said:
"Strict: Remove all the styles presented in the original document except
for those that can be mapped directly into xwiki syntax"
Isn't (%%) xwiki syntax? I think so. containing a lot of scaled-down /
precisely-aligned images (or other
stuff)
the output would look pretty screwed without the
styles. And this might
not
give the user a good impression about the
officeimporter application.
Rather, if keep the 'no style filter' as the default, a default import
would
at least be close to the original document. And
the user will _have_ to
set
the 'strict' filtering mode knowing what
he is doing (thus the result is
acceptable).
This is only my POV.
Thanks.
- Asiri
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
8:47 a.m.
New subject: [xwiki-devs] [VOTE] Remove moderate style filtering option from office importer
Asiri Rathnayake wrote:
On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Marius Dumitru
Florea <
mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
Not quite. XHTML is a richer syntax than XWiki. For one thing HTML forms
can't be represented in XWiki syntax.
Asiri Rathnayake wrote:
Well in that case we should not strip any styles at all... I mean everything
possible in xhtml can be represented in xwiki code. On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Marius Dumitru
Florea <
mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
currently
+1 to remove Moderate filtering level.
+1 for having Strict as the default filtering level (I'm thinking that
we should educate our users and make them understand that most of the
time office content is not suited as it is for web)
One thing worth to be mentioned is that with 'strict' filtering we filter out image widths, heights, alignments and
such (basically anything
that requires (%%) in wiki code) This means if a user imports a document
You
said:
"Strict: Remove all the styles presented in the original document except
for those that can be mapped directly into xwiki syntax"
Isn't (%%) xwiki syntax? I think so.
The problem with (%%) is that when there are so many of them (when there are
so many styles / parameters set in the original office content) it's really
hard to read the generated wiki code (it's a mess).
That's why we filter those stuff that require (%%) in wiki code, to keep it
clean...
By "mapping directly into xwiki syntax" I meant those styles that do not
require additional parameters (%%). For an example, bold, italic etc. etc.
So 'strict filtering' --> no (%%)
Then I don't see it's purpose. It's really rare to have an XHTML with
attribute-less tags. Title, alt, class, id are just a few of the common
XHTML attributes that go inside (%%) in XWiki syntax.
Basically you're saying that passing a hand-written XHTML page to the
office importer/cleaner removes all my attributes beside src on images
and href on link. Why would I need such a filter?
Thanks.
- Asiri
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
containing a lot of scaled-down /
precisely-aligned images (or other
stuff)
the output would look pretty screwed without the
styles. And this might
not
give the user a good impression about the
officeimporter application.
Rather, if keep the 'no style filter' as the default, a default import
would
at least be close to the original document. And
the user will _have_ to
set
the 'strict' filtering mode knowing what
he is doing (thus the result is
acceptable).
This is only my POV.
Thanks.
- Asiri
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
8:57 a.m.
Hi,
The purpose of officeimporter is not to process xhtml documents but office
documents. Yes, _currently_ 'strict filter' only allows those few attributes
that are mandatory for preserving the _content_ of the original office
document, not it's presentation.
This is exactly why I included a 'moderate' filter... which keeps the wiki
output not being out-of-shape with the original document.
Thanks.
- Asiri
So 'strict filtering' --> no (%%)
Then I don't see it's purpose. It's really rare to have an XHTML with
attribute-less tags. Title, alt, class, id are just a few of the common
XHTML attributes that go inside (%%) in XWiki syntax.
Basically you're saying that passing a hand-written XHTML page to the
office importer/cleaner removes all my attributes beside src on images
and href on link. Why would I need such a filter?
9:16 a.m.
New subject: [xwiki-devs] [VOTE] Remove moderate style filtering option from office importer
Hi Asiri,
Asiri Rathnayake wrote:
Hi,
The purpose of officeimporter is not to process xhtml documents but office
documents. Yes, _currently_ 'strict filter' only allows those few attributes
that are mandatory for preserving the _content_ of the original office
document, not it's presentation.
Links can have name, rel and target. Images require alt. Tables can have
summary. These are not really presentational attributes.
So
'strict filtering' --> no (%%)
Then I don't see it's purpose.
It's really rare to have an XHTML with
attribute-less tags. Title, alt, class, id are just a few of the common
XHTML attributes that go inside (%%) in XWiki syntax.
Basically you're saying that passing a hand-written XHTML page to the
office importer/cleaner removes all my attributes beside src on images
and href on link. Why would I need such a filter?
This is exactly why I included a 'moderate' filter... which keeps the wiki
output not being out-of-shape with the original document.
Then I'm -0 for removing the Moderate filter. Let's see what others think.
Thanks,
Marius.
Thanks.
- Asiri
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
9:49 a.m.
Hi,
Links can have name, rel and target. Images require
alt. Tables can have
summary. These are not really presentational attributes.
Some of these attributes are allowed in 'strict' mode (name, alt, colspan,
rowspan) - These are the attributes we consider non-presentational. And some
of them doesn't make sense when we consider office documents (ex target)
So I think 'strict' style filter makes lot of sense. But it's possible that
there are other attributes that should be allowed in 'strict' filtering
mode.
Thanks.
- Asiri
10:09 a.m.
Hi,
I thought about the issue a bit more and I changed my mind: I agree with
Asiri & Vincent on the fact that an user will expect most of the styles he
applied to be preserved on the resulting document.
There are 2 different issues at hand:
1) Same-looking documents across the wiki
2) Wikis syntax readability
Thus to select a number of filtering levels and options we need to answer
the following questions:
1) Do we want to force a standard layout for content throughout the wiki?
2) Do we want a human to be able to read the outputted wiki wyntax?
I agree with Asiri on the fact that we should not have more than 2 options
available.
Here are my answers:
1) My webdesigner's spirit (as far as I have one) goes towards imposing a
similar layout for content. However, people are messy. They want to do
whateverthey want with their content. If they fail at doing so, they get
annoyed (and they don't care about what I think about it :-). If they get
annoyed, they stop using the software. Thus we should not filter out styles
by default.
2) My developer's spirit (ibidem) leans in favor of clean, readable syntax.
But that's because I like using the wiki syntax editor. We spent months
creating a WYSIWYG editor that will work so much better than the old one
that the majority of people will never have to bother looking at wiki syntax
again. This is good. Thus syntax readability doesn't matter much either.
I'm in favor of keeping 2 options though, since some people (well, in this
case at least Sergiu & me :-) will want to strip almost everything but
content when importing documents (and reach objectives 1) & 2) ). Plus, as
the original doc gets attached to the page, it can be imported again using
the other import mode if the first one used wasn't satisfying enough.
The default option should be to use as little filtering as possible.
As for the criteria in choosing what goes in both filtering modes:
* strict filtering: keep the syntax as readable as possible, thus remove
every %%
* standard import: well, I still think you could remove that weird "western"
property that gets into most documents ;-) Apart from that, the more the
better (Asiri, did you write a detailed list of properties to add / remove
somewhere?)
Guillaume
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Asiri Rathnayake <asiri.rathnayake(a)gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [xwiki-devs] [VOTE] Remove moderate style filtering option from
office importer
To: XWiki Developers <devs(a)xwiki.org>
Hi,
Links can have name, rel and target. Images require
alt. Tables can have
summary. These are not really presentational attributes.
Some of these attributes are allowed in 'strict' mode (name, alt, colspan,
rowspan) - These are the attributes we consider non-presentational. And some
of them doesn't make sense when we consider office documents (ex target)
So I think 'strict' style filter makes lot of sense. But it's possible that
there are other attributes that should be allowed in 'strict' filtering
mode.
Thanks.
- Asiri
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
--
Guillaume Lerouge
Product Manager - XWiki
Skype ID : wikibc
http://guillaumelerouge.com/
9:55 a.m.
This is exactly why I included a 'moderate' filter... which keeps the
wiki
output not being out-of-shape with the original
document.
Then I'm -0 for removing the Moderate filter. Let's see what others think.
5694
days inactive
5695
days old
13 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
Asiri Rathnayake -
Guillaume Lerouge -
Marius Dumitru Florea -
Sergiu Dumitriu -
Vincent Massol