Hi Anca,
The two are :
1 - An anotation module
It is "just" annotation. Simple to understand.
Just :
As we said make it light on the interface.
Do not use a separated tab for showing anotations in the botom.
Just dont use a tab or put annoations in the comment tab.
2 - A quotes/anotation system integrated with comments
Favorise discussion.
More fluid to comment an anotation (else user will do it in the coment tab
without a link to the anotation)
Not an independant feature (avoid making bricks and bricks on interface that
loose the user)
Well, I would add a third design wich is a mix of the two.
The anotation system but :
- Annoatation tab content is mixed into comments tabs
- Annotations are commentable (but are always the first element of the
discussion)
All of this makes sens, the choice is to be made on what the team feel :
- The most simple for the user
- The most powerfull to support user discussion about the document
Makes me thinking that I'm in Paris, not far from you, and have a long time
to wait between two meeting, so that we can have a voice discussion about
this if you want.
Have a nice day
Thibaut
2010/1/19 Anca Luca <ancapaula.luca(a)xwiki.com>
Hi Thibaut,
On 01/19/2010 03:54 AM, Thibaut DEVERAUX wrote:
Hi,
I think the two make sens.
Which two? please detail a bit...
An annotation module as simple way to add personal notes on the page.
A "quotes + icones on page" module as a way to annotate and discuss
directly on the page.
The only thing wich is making me wondering is the annotation tab as it
add another way to get the information while there is already the
icones on the page.
1/ Is this tab really usefull or just an additional feature : "best
with but not needed"
2/ Isn't there is a risk of overloading the wiki if each feature has
so many options ?
I'd like to sugsest two reflexion start points :
A/ Simplicity
It is never a problem to add one tab, but it is a problem when each
feature add complexity.
Just imgagine someone want to add 10 features that use such tabs. Then
he will have 14 tabs !
That why I'm pro *guetting the features a simple as possible* to avoid
information overload when many features are activated.
--- Start point 1 ---
Do not use a tab for annotation by default. Just leave them on page.
B/ Intergration
Also that's why I prefer to intergate several functionalities in a
single functionality when there is a usage justification.
Here usages sugest that annoatation are on the same scope of use as
comments for the readers. They may want to have it all at the same
place to get an overveiw of people reactions.
--- Start point 2 ---
Put the anotation tab content in the comment tab content.
The deal is to make it so that the user understand the way he interact
with it.
@Anca
We could indeed push for this kind of integration
with XE
Not sure to understand ?
Please dont make it a standart feature. ;-) I guess for much users is
not really need as they have other ways to tell about text details
than using quotes+icones or annotation system (simplely copy/past in
comments)
What I mean is that the annotations feature is a flexible add-on (call it
like
this if you want) which should be usable in a variety of wikis, more or
less
standard, and provide the ways to customize integration with these. If we
want
it like this, we can build the custom 'integrated with comments' flavour
for XE
(or any other wiki for that matter, but this wouldn't be our job), such as
when
an admin adds this add-on to his wiki it has it by default integrated in
the
comments thread.
In other words, this integration is only one of the applications of the
annotation feature.
@Caty
> - your display options are not very well positioned because the example
is a
> poem, but in real life, the text will use all
the area, and the right
> aligned position will not look so smooth as it looks now, being pushed
up
and
outside the text.
Sure, I didn't looked so much in positionnement.
> - your ideas and scenario about the similarities between annotations and
> comment is interesting and pertinent. Anca should tell her opinion
about
this from
an implementation point of view.
- if the annotations were comments, then we don't need a separation of
terms. The icon should be comment instead of annotation and they should
suppose to be localized comments, not something else. And also we didn't
need two add actions in the tab.
More preciselly is not an annotation module but a quote module that
also makes possible to have icones on text, providing the same service
as an annotation module.
I tried a design where there is no box showing comments on pages but a
link to the right place in comment zone.
However I find it to be less fluid for the user. You can have a look
on it, it may grant some ideas :
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/AnnotationsPro…
> - I disagree with the explicit display of replies in the annotation
> details/actions overlay. This representation could get very big and
block
all the
text behind. Also if we would display it like this, then the Tab
would be redundant.
Well, I think the replies are needed because it become a conversation.
So that the whoole conversation is needed to understand the quote.
I'm not sur having big boxes is a problem. When you open a box you are
reading the box, then you close it.
Indeed most of boxes will not be big.
> - I agree with the icon from the tab that takes you to the location in
the
content.
Think it could be added in the original design too.
> - The problem with this approach is that we need to annotate not just
text,
> but add tags and other metadata to the
content. This is an argument to
have
another
tab for annotations.
Well, I'm not sure to understand it. Is is programmation matters ?
If not I think that quoting the text is already a good thing.
The quote button is on the page wich, in an information architecture
way, sugsest to the user that this is the text that is to be quoted.
What Cati means is that the annotation module is designed to potentially
use any
type of data to annotate a text with (right now indeed is only a 'comment'
but
it will be a data structure: specific fields, forms to fill in when adding,
etc), that each developer adding the annotations in his wiki will be able
to
specify (build an XWiki class to describe it, most probable). For example,
imagine syntax correction of a text, and being able to specify, for each
annotation, the type of mistake that is made, what to replace it with, an
explanation about the mistake, a vote count specifying how many users agree
with it.
Unless we decide that comments have by default structure too -- which is
not
necessarily a bad idea --, integration of the two is not that natural since
now
they are different types of data. And from this my idea that integrating
the
annotations with comments shouldn't be _the default_ but _one_ of the
possible
applications, for the case when the type of the data is the same.
Now of course, there is also the other approach, that disconnecting the
annotations from the comments is one of the possible applications... :)
Thanks,
Anca
> - when you show linked replies for an annotation, the new comment you
add is
an
annotation for the original annotation? or for the comment? :)
Hay... I don't understand it at all.
What user can do is :
- Quoting the text while reading, using the quote button at the top
of the text.
- Opening a conversation related to the text quote directly on the
page.
- Quoting the text while writting a comment,
using the quote button
in the comment field
- Interacting in a classic way in comments
The idea is more making a quote system, able to provide the same
service as an annotation system adding the two first ways of
interacting to the two last which would be the "classics" of a quoting
system.
Thx
Thibaut
2010/1/18 Anca Luca<ancapaula.luca(a)xwiki.com>
>
> Hi JV,
>
> On 01/18/2010 07:21 PM, Jean-Vincent Drean wrote:
>> On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Thibaut DEVERAUX
>> <thibaut.deveraux(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I'm ok to the "add" button. This was only a very quick axis
for
reflexion.
>>>
>>> I agree to ludovic on the point there is a need on something less
visible on
>>> the page. Imo we can also make it
more simple in the toughts.
>>>
>>> As I can't sleep this morning I have made some more constructed UX
about the
>>> module.
>>> Editable pdf (use illustrator or inkscape) :
>>>
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/AnnotationsPro…
>>> Png on Flickr :
>>>
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thibautdeveraux/sets/72157623219280278/
>>> This is ideas, use it in a "remix" way. ;)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Notes taken during the design (hope it is clear) :
>>>
>>> *
>>> **Stage 1 : Get the concept from utility
>>>
>>> What are the utility uses of annotations ?*
>>>
>>> I guess that, in a global point of view, the use of anotations is to
discuss
>>> on details points of a text.
>>>
>>> For example Mr John have redacted a commercial proposition and the
team
>>> makes a review of it.
>>>
>>> Generally people quote the text in the comments. With the annotation
module
>>> it will be more easy to find the
parts of the text wich have been
commented.
>>>
>>>
>>> *===> Annotations are comments ?*
>>>
>>> For readers the utility use of comments is to see people reactions.
Both
>>> comments and annotations are people
reactions.
>>>
>>> If there is two tabs in the bottom menu, readers will have to swich
from one
>>> to another to see all the people
reactions, getting lose in having two
>>> options for one single use.
>>>
>>> *Get the concept from utility :*
>>> *For the reader, an annotations is a comment where a text is quoted*
>>>
>>> At this stage of the reflexion, we can guess that, the comment tab and
the
>>> annotation tab at the bottom of the
page should be merged.
>>>
>>
>> This makes a lot of sense to me, has this option been explored ? Has
>> it been dropped for some reason ?
>
> Indeed it makes a lot of sense but I'm thinking it should be an
'additional'
> integration using the annotations default
implementation.
>
> Annotations are designed (and will be implemented) to be structured and
> flexible, as in contain any kind of structured metadata (most probably
defined
> by an xwiki class) with customizable views
and all. This way they could
be
> integrated with comments, if needed, or
handled distinctly, if needed.
>
> We could indeed push for this kind of integration with XE, if we decide
we
want
> it like this, but I think the generic
annotations feature should stay a
bit more
> 'disconnected'.
>
> Thanks,
> Anca
>
>>
>>>
>>> *Stage 2 : get the interactions from usage chains
>>>
>>> Build the usage chains* ---> *Interactions * (priority : * to ***
)
>>>
>>> Notice : if statements lead to a too complexe interface, select only
the
>>> main points that should be keeped
>>>
>>> *First time reading :*
>>>
>>> - I read the page
>>> --- While reading the page I notice the people annotations *---->
User can
>>> see where are annotations on page
***
>>> ----- *Then I may want to read it* ---> User can read
annotations directly
>>> on the page ***
>>> * ------- I may comment people reactions directly on the anotation
box *--->
>>> User can comment the annotation
directly on page* **
>>> --- While reading I may quote a part of the text and comment it
*---> User
>>> can add an anotation direclty on page
****
>>> *
>>> * - I read the comments
>>> --- While reading the comment I may notice that someone quoted a
part of
>>> the page *---> User can see
annotations in comments* ***
>>> ----- Then I may go back to the text to find the quoted text in
context *--->
>>> ** **User can see where are
annotations on page ****
>>> --- While reading the comments I may react to it *---> User can
answer to
>>> comments (already done)* **
>>> ----- I may do it quoting a part of the text *---> User can make
annotation
>>> starting from the comment zone*** **
>>> *
>>> * - I have read the page and want to make a comment *---> User can
make
>>> comments (already done)* ***
>>> ----- I may do it quoting a part of the text *---> User can make
annotation
>>> starting from the comment zone* **
>>> *
>>>
>>> **Comming back to see people reactions :*
>>> *
>>> * - I may look on the page to see if there is new part of the text
>>> quoted *---->
>>> User can see where are annotations on page *** /or even/ **User can
see wich
>>> annotations are new on page **
>>> *----- *Then I may want to read it* ---> User can read
annotations
>>> directly on the page ***
>>> * ------- I may comment people reactions directly on the anotation
box *--->
>>> User can comment the annotation
directly on page* **
>>>
>>> * * - More general way : I look for new comments *---> User can see
which
>>> are the last comments (already done)*
***
>>> --- While reading the comment I may notice that someone quoted a
part of
>>> the page *---> User can see
annotations in comments* ***
>>> ----- Then I may go back to the text to find the quoted text in
context *--->
>>> ** **User can see where are
annotations on page ****
>>> --- While reading the comments I may react to it *---> User can
answer to
>>> comments (already done)* **
>>> ----- I may do it quoting a part of the text *---> User can make
annotation
>>> starting from the comment zone* **
>>>
>>>
>>> *Quick reference :*
>>>
>>> *User can see where are annotations on page ***
>>> **User can see which are the last comments (already done)* ****
>>>
>>> **User can read annotations in comments* ***
>>> *User can read annotations directly on the page ****
>>>
>>> *User can add an anotation direclty on page ****
>>> *User can add a comment (already done)* ***
>>>
>>>
>>> *User can comment the annotation directly on page* **
>>> *User can comment the comments (already done)* ****
>>> *
>>> User can add annotation starting from the comment zone* **
>>> *
>>>
>>> User can see wich annotations are new directly on page **
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Stage 3 : draw the interface*
>>>
>>> Have a look at the schemas. ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2010/1/15 Ludovic Dubost<ludovic(a)xwiki.org>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure if one button is better than showing upfront some
information.
>>>> It might be something we might
have as an option in the Wiki. And we
need a
>>>> way to collapse it..
>>>>
>>>> However one thing I'm quite sure of, is that it's enough blue
bars..
so we
>>>> need something less visible in
the page..
>>>>
>>>> Select the text + add will be an issue since the "Add" button
might
not be
>>>> on screen..
>>>>
>>>> Otherwise it's very nice.. I like the user colors, the annotation
setting
>>>> and the annotation tab..
>>>>
>>>> Note that an annotation creation or display can be much more than
just one
>>>> text..
>>>>
>>>> Ludovic
>>>>
>>>> Le 15/01/10 21:51, Thibaut DEVERAUX a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> Hi Cathy,
>>>>>
>>>>> No time for visuals neither looking to much in it but did you think
about
>>>>> a
>>>>> single button "show annotations options" ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Button at start :*
>>>>>
>>>>> Show annotations options>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Clicking on the button open a menu :*
>>>>>
>>>>> Show annotations options>
>>>>> A line showing the users names by colors (if colors
activated)
>>>>> [V] Hide/show icones
on the page
>>>>> -- [V] Hide/show colors
>>>>> [+] Add annotation
>>>>>
>>>>> *Interact with anotations directly on the page :*
>>>>> Use the icones on page to interact : see, modify, react...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me know...
>>>>>
>>>>> Thibaut
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2010/1/15 Ecaterina Valica<valicac(a)gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I made some UI suggestions for the annotations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Overview:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Annotations/pr…
>>>>>> Details:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/AnnotationsProposal
>>>>
>>>> Please let us (me and Anca) know what you think.
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs