17 Nov
2009
17 Nov
'09
10:12 a.m.
Hi guys,
The cleanup made also some minor changes. Some of them were remarked by
Marius because he needs to change some values in order for the WYSIWYG tests
to pass.
I would like to know if anyone has some problems with:
1. paragraph text (Ps) is now aligned: justify instead of align: left;
(long text look better when they are justify )
2. definitions (DDs) are not displayed with italics anymore
(standard HTML dd are not original italic - this was a toucan thing)
Thanks,
Caty
17 Nov
17 Nov
10:28 a.m.
Hi Caty,
On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Ecaterina Valica <valicac(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
Hi guys,
The cleanup made also some minor changes. Some of them were remarked by
Marius because he needs to change some values in order for the WYSIWYG
tests
to pass.
I would like to know if anyone has some problems with:
1. paragraph text (Ps) is now aligned: justify instead of align: left;
(long text look better when they are justify )
I do :-)
I'm usually in favor of left-aligned text since justified text often ends up
producing ugly-looking results, specially when used in small columns.
Left-aligned text is also the standard on most websites and virtually
every wiki software I know of. Additionally, people often use lists in wiki
pages and left-aligned text allows keeping a better flow between the text
and lists.
I'd rather go with a more "solid" solution that can be used
"safely" in
every situation than a slightly better looking one that might break
unexpected items. Since XWiki is meant to be used as a platform, using
"safer" defaults is important.
In short: my point of view is that while justify may look nicer in some edge
cases left-aligned text is a much better fit for XWiki.
I'm -0 on this, leaning towards -1 .
2. definitions (DDs) are not displayed with italics anymore
(standard HTML dd are not original italic - this was
a toucan thing)
+1 for this one, it will make the defaut ClassSheet look better.
Guillaume
Thanks,
Caty
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
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--
Guillaume Lerouge
Product Manager - XWiki SAS
Skype: wikibc
Twitter: glerouge
http://guillaumelerouge.com/
11:25 a.m.
On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:28, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>wrote;wrote:
Hi Caty,
On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Ecaterina Valica <valicac(a)gmail.com
the Justify is for p elements - this means text in paragraphs.
The lists (ul, ol) are not justified right now.
wrote:
Hi guys,
The cleanup made also some minor changes. Some of them were remarked by
Marius because he needs to change some values in order for the WYSIWYG
tests
to pass.
I would like to know if anyone has some problems with:
1. paragraph text (Ps) is now aligned: justify instead of align: left;
(long text look better when they are justify )
I do :-)
I'm usually in favor of left-aligned text since justified text often ends
up
producing ugly-looking results, specially when used in small columns.
Left-aligned text is also the standard on most websites and virtually
every wiki software I know of. Additionally, people often use lists in wiki
pages and left-aligned text allows keeping a better flow between the text
and lists.
I'd rather go with a more "solid" solution that can be used
"safely" in
every situation than a slightly better looking one that might break
unexpected items.
"unexpected items" - so I repeat, the justify is for paragraphs, not for the
container. And text usually looks better when justified.
Since XWiki is meant to be used as a platform, using
"safer" defaults is important.
In short: my point of view is that while justify may look nicer in some
edge
cases left-aligned text is a much better fit for XWiki.
I'm -0 on this, leaning towards -1 .
2. definitions (DDs) are not displayed with italics anymore
(standard HTML dd are not original italic - this
was a toucan thing)
+1 for this one, it will make the defaut ClassSheet look better.
Guillaume
Thanks,
Caty
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
--
Guillaume Lerouge
Product Manager - XWiki SAS
Skype: wikibc
Twitter: glerouge
http://guillaumelerouge.com/
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
2:38 p.m.
Hi,
On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Ecaterina Valica <valicac(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:28, Guillaume Lerouge
<guillaume(a)xwiki.com
I understood that already. Since the rendering creates a new paragraph each
time a new line is created, it still means that almost all text will be
justified.
wrote:
> Hi Caty,
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Ecaterina Valica <valicac(a)gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > The cleanup made also some minor changes. Some of them were remarked by
> > Marius because he needs to change some values in order for the WYSIWYG
> > tests
> > to pass.
> > I would like to know if anyone has some problems with:
> >
> > 1. paragraph text (Ps) is now aligned: justify instead of align: left;
> > (long text look better when they are justify )
> >
>
> I do :-)
>
> I'm usually in favor of left-aligned text since justified text often ends
> up
> producing ugly-looking results, specially when used in small columns.
>
> Left-aligned text is also the standard on most websites and virtually
> every wiki software I know of. Additionally, people often use lists in
wiki
pages and left-aligned text allows keeping a
better flow between the text
and lists.
the Justify is for p elements - this means text in paragraphs.
The lists (ul, ol) are not justified right now.
I'd rather go with a more "solid"
solution that can be used "safely" in
I understand that. As I stated it above, the rendering / WYSIWYG create new
paragraphs for virtually all of the content that is inputted on a wiki page
thus most of the content on a page will use the justified form.
As for "text usually looks better when justified", I disagree. Most browsers
handle justification poorly and display big blocks of white between words.
They create "rivers of white" between words that don't look good at all.
From
http://www.webtypography.net/Rhythm_and_Proportion/Horizontal_Motion/2.1.3/:
"Effective justification of text can only be achieved if long words are
hyphenated. HTML and CSS 2 do not have any provision for automatic
hyphenation and current Web browsers support, even for manual hyphenation,
is poor. So don’t justify text on the web."
Justify works well when there's a lot of content on a page and there's a
content flow (for books and long articles for instance). However most wiki
pages are not books and hold technical content and relatively short lines of
text. This means that in many cases we would end up with one justified line
and then right underneath it an aligned-left line. This will look weird.
Last but not least, rather than "text usually looks good" I'd like to see an
explanation + examples of pages showing how justifying text will make XWiki
easier to use for its users (will it make reading faster? will it make pages
look more consistent and thus easier to grok by users?). Until then I'm not
convinced it's a good change.
To summarize: in most cases justify won't bring much value and it's less
flexible and causes more issues than align left. I won't change my mind
unless I see how it makes reading more effective on a production wiki with
"real life" text.
Guillaume
every situation than a slightly better looking
one that might break
unexpected items.
"unexpected items" - so I repeat, the justify is for paragraphs, not for
the
container. And text usually looks better when justified. Since XWiki is meant to be used as a platform, using
--
Guillaume Lerouge
Product Manager - XWiki SAS
Skype: wikibc
Twitter: glerouge
http://guillaumelerouge.com/
"safer" defaults is important.
In short: my point of view is that while justify may look nicer in some
edge
cases left-aligned text is a much better fit for XWiki.
I'm -0 on this, leaning towards -1 .
2. definitions (DDs) are not displayed with italics anymore
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
(standard HTML dd are not original italic - this
was a toucan thing)
+1 for this one, it will make the defaut ClassSheet look better.
Guillaume
Thanks,
Caty
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
--
Guillaume Lerouge
Product Manager - XWiki SAS
Skype: wikibc
Twitter: glerouge
http://guillaumelerouge.com/
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
2:59 p.m.
Last but not least, rather than "text usually looks good" I'd like to see
an
explanation + examples of pages showing how justifying text will make XWiki
easier to use for its users (will it make reading faster? will it make
pages
look more consistent and thus easier to grok by users?). Until then I'm not
convinced it's a good change.
To summarize: in most cases justify won't bring much value and it's less
flexible and causes more issues than align left. I won't change my mind
unless I see how it makes reading more effective on a production wiki with
"real life" text.
It's not a matter of which one is "easier to use for its users" - the
alignment of the text is more of a layout integration / consistency.
Justify is usually more formal and yes looks great in prints and large
texts. Since XWiki is a platform and doesn't not means just large quantities
of text, I agree we can make it back to left aligment for the web, because
apparently left align is more spread in this area.
How about having p justify aligned when we print the page or export it (to
pdf for ex)?
3:08 p.m.
On 11/17/09 2:59 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
Having a global "Presentation" preference in the administration to
easily allow making paragraph justified could be interesting, WDYT?
Jerome.
Last but not least, rather than "text usually looks good" I'd like to see
an
explanation + examples of pages showing how justifying text will make XWiki
easier to use for its users (will it make reading faster? will it make
pages
look more consistent and thus easier to grok by users?). Until then I'm not
convinced it's a good change.
To summarize: in most cases justify won't bring much value and it's less
flexible and causes more issues than align left. I won't change my mind
unless I see how it makes reading more effective on a production wiki with
"real life" text.
It's not a matter of which one is "easier to use for its users" - the
alignment of the text is more of a layout integration / consistency.
Justify is usually more formal and yes looks great in prints and large
texts. Since XWiki is a platform and doesn't not means just large quantities
of text, I agree we can make it back to left aligment for the web, because
apparently left align is more spread in this area.
How about having p justify aligned when we print the page or export it (to
pdf for ex)? _______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
3:17 p.m.
On Nov 17, 2009, at 3:08 PM, Jerome Velociter wrote:
On 11/17/09 2:59 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
Having a global "Presentation" preference in the administration to
easily allow making paragraph justified could be interesting, WDYT?
I think it might be overkill (and would add unnecessary complexity).
Especially since this can be done easily using a SSX, right?
I haven't seen anyone asking for this so I doubt we need it right now.
Thanks
-Vincent
Last but not least, rather than "text usually looks good" I'd like
to see
an
explanation + examples of pages showing how justifying text will
make XWiki
easier to use for its users (will it make reading faster? will it
make
pages
look more consistent and thus easier to grok by users?). Until
then I'm not
convinced it's a good change.
To summarize: in most cases justify won't bring much value and
it's less
flexible and causes more issues than align left. I won't change my
mind
unless I see how it makes reading more effective on a production
wiki with
"real life" text.
It's not a matter of which one is "easier to use for its users" - the
alignment of the text is more of a layout integration / consistency.
Justify is usually more formal and yes looks great in prints and
large
texts. Since XWiki is a platform and doesn't not means just large
quantities
of text, I agree we can make it back to left aligment for the web,
because
apparently left align is more spread in this area.
How about having p justify aligned when we print the page or export
it (to
pdf for ex)?
3:22 p.m.
On 11/17/09 3:17 PM, Vincent Massol wrote:
On Nov 17, 2009, at 3:08 PM, Jerome Velociter wrote:
Yes SSX "mod" is the alternative.
Jerome.
On 11/17/09 2:59 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
Having a global "Presentation" preference in the administration to
easily allow making paragraph justified could be interesting, WDYT?
I think it might be overkill (and would add unnecessary complexity).
Especially since this can be done easily using a SSX, right?
Last but not least, rather than "text usually looks good" I'd like
to see
an
explanation + examples of pages showing how justifying text will
make XWiki
easier to use for its users (will it make reading faster? will it
make
pages
look more consistent and thus easier to grok by users?). Until
then I'm not
convinced it's a good change.
To summarize: in most cases justify won't bring much value and
it's less
flexible and causes more issues than align left. I won't change my
mind
unless I see how it makes reading more effective on a production
wiki with
"real life" text.
It's not a matter of which one is "easier to use for its users" - the
alignment of the text is more of a layout integration / consistency.
Justify is usually more formal and yes looks great in prints and
large
texts. Since XWiki is a platform and doesn't not means just large
quantities
of text, I agree we can make it back to left aligment for the web,
because
apparently left align is more spread in this area.
How about having p justify aligned when we print the page or export
it (to
pdf for ex)?
I haven't seen anyone asking for this so I doubt we need it right now.
Thanks
-Vincent
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
3:28 p.m.
On Nov 17, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Jerome Velociter wrote:
On 11/17/09 3:17 PM, Vincent Massol wrote:
BTW making SSX/JSX "mods" avail on code.xwiki.org would be good.
-Vincent
On Nov 17, 2009, at 3:08 PM, Jerome Velociter wrote:
Yes SSX "mod" is the alternative. On 11/17/09 2:59 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
I think it might be overkill (and would add unnecessary complexity).
Especially since this can be done easily using a SSX, right? >
> Last but not least, rather than "text usually looks good" I'd like
> to see
> an
> explanation + examples of pages showing how justifying text will
> make XWiki
> easier to use for its users (will it make reading faster? will it
> make
> pages
> look more consistent and thus easier to grok by users?). Until
> then I'm not
> convinced it's a good change.
>
> To summarize: in most cases justify won't bring much value and
> it's less
> flexible and causes more issues than align left. I won't change my
> mind
> unless I see how it makes reading more effective on a production
> wiki with
> "real life" text.
>
It's not a matter of which one is "easier to use for its users" -
the
alignment of the text is more of a layout integration /
consistency.
Justify is usually more formal and yes looks great in prints and
large
texts. Since XWiki is a platform and doesn't not means just large
quantities
of text, I agree we can make it back to left aligment for the web,
because
apparently left align is more spread in this area.
How about having p justify aligned when we print the page or export
it (to
pdf for ex)?
Having a global "Presentation" preference in the administration to
easily allow making paragraph justified could be interesting, WDYT? Jerome.
>
> I haven't seen anyone asking for this so I doubt we need it right
> now.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
3:35 p.m.
On 11/17/09 3:28 PM, Vincent Massol wrote:
On Nov 17, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Jerome Velociter wrote:
You mean as a distinct category ?
On 11/17/09 3:17 PM, Vincent Massol wrote:
BTW making SSX/JSX "mods" avail on code.xwiki.org would be good.
On Nov 17, 2009, at 3:08 PM, Jerome Velociter wrote:
Yes SSX "mod" is the alternative. On 11/17/09 2:59 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
>>
>> Last but not least, rather than "text usually looks good" I'd like
>> to see
>> an
>> explanation + examples of pages showing how justifying text will
>> make XWiki
>> easier to use for its users (will it make reading faster? will it
>> make
>> pages
>> look more consistent and thus easier to grok by users?). Until
>> then I'm not
>> convinced it's a good change.
>>
>> To summarize: in most cases justify won't bring much value and
>> it's less
>> flexible and causes more issues than align left. I won't change my
>> mind
>> unless I see how it makes reading more effective on a production
>> wiki with
>> "real life" text.
>>
>
> It's not a matter of which one is "easier to use for its users" -
> the
> alignment of the text is more of a layout integration /
> consistency.
>
> Justify is usually more formal and yes looks great in prints and
> large
> texts. Since XWiki is a platform and doesn't not means just large
> quantities
> of text, I agree we can make it back to left aligment for the web,
> because
> apparently left align is more spread in this area.
>
> How about having p justify aligned when we print the page or export
> it (to
> pdf for ex)?
Having a global "Presentation" preference in the administration to
easily allow making paragraph justified could be interesting, WDYT?
I think it might be overkill (and would add unnecessary complexity).
Especially since this can be done easily using a SSX, right?
-Vincent
Jerome.
>
> I haven't seen anyone asking for this so I doubt we need it right
> now.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
3:39 p.m.
On Nov 17, 2009, at 3:35 PM, Jerome Velociter wrote:
On 11/17/09 3:28 PM, Vincent Massol wrote:
Well, showing it as an "application" might be misleading. I haven't
thought much about it.
I guess it matters a bit less if we have the redesign that shows them
all on the home page.
Another idea would be to succeed in having the same XClass for all
extensions (if possible - I wanted to do that initially but found
there were different, maybe we can try again) and then use tags for
categorize extensions (and the tag cloud feature of the livetable on
the home page).
-Vincent
On Nov 17, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Jerome Velociter wrote:
You mean as a distinct category ? On 11/17/09 3:17 PM, Vincent Massol wrote:
BTW making SSX/JSX "mods" avail on code.xwiki.org would be good.
On Nov 17, 2009, at 3:08 PM, Jerome Velociter wrote:
> On 11/17/09 2:59 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote:
>>>
>>> Last but not least, rather than "text usually looks good" I'd
>>> like
>>> to see
>>> an
>>> explanation + examples of pages showing how justifying text will
>>> make XWiki
>>> easier to use for its users (will it make reading faster? will
>>> it
>>> make
>>> pages
>>> look more consistent and thus easier to grok by users?). Until
>>> then I'm not
>>> convinced it's a good change.
>>>
>>> To summarize: in most cases justify won't bring much value and
>>> it's less
>>> flexible and causes more issues than align left. I won't
>>> change my
>>> mind
>>> unless I see how it makes reading more effective on a production
>>> wiki with
>>> "real life" text.
>>>
>>
>> It's not a matter of which one is "easier to use for its users" -
>> the
>> alignment of the text is more of a layout integration /
>> consistency.
>>
>> Justify is usually more formal and yes looks great in prints and
>> large
>> texts. Since XWiki is a platform and doesn't not means just large
>> quantities
>> of text, I agree we can make it back to left aligment for the
>> web,
>> because
>> apparently left align is more spread in this area.
>>
>> How about having p justify aligned when we print the page or
>> export
>> it (to
>> pdf for ex)?
>
> Having a global "Presentation" preference in the administration to
> easily allow making paragraph justified could be interesting,
> WDYT?
I think it might be overkill (and would add unnecessary
complexity).
Especially since this can be done easily using a SSX, right?
Yes SSX "mod" is the alternative. > -Vincent
>
>> Jerome.
>>>
>>> I haven't seen anyone asking for this so I doubt we need it right
>>> now.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> -Vincent
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10 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
Ecaterina Valica -
Guillaume Lerouge -
Jerome Velociter -
Vincent Massol