Hi, On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Eduard Moraru &lt;enygma2002(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: I'll answer on this thread. However, I stand by my point that creating a wiki or a space are different actions compared from adding a new page and as thus should be treated differently. Regarding your actual proposal, I`d be inclined to -1 it, as IMO it makes I agree with the logic but I'm not sure I'm 100% in line with the conclusion. As you said, the goal is to help users create and structure their content. Right now, when looking at existing installs, I often see cases where users created several spaces with similar names (which doesn't really help structure information). This is mainly because they didn't know that a space with a similar name already existed. Similarly, you wouldn't want someone to create a "Communication" wiki if the "MarketingCommunication" wiki already exists. This is why I'm proposing to place "Create" buttons in context. I see at least 3 places where this could be useful: - "Create wiki" button on http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/WikiManager/ - "Create space" button on hypothetical http://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/SpacesIndex (similar to what we already have on the Dashboard) - "Create user" button on http://<server> /xwiki/bin/view/Main/UserDirectory So from my point of view, by putting those buttons on those pages they would actually be easier to find and understand for end-users. Thanks, Guillaume Thanks,

On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Guillaume Lerouge &lt;guillaume(a)xwiki.com&gt; wrote: What I read from your example above is that we can improve the create page/space/wiki UIs to have a section that does a kind of suggest to the user based on the name of the new entry he wants to create. We could have something like "The pages/spaces/wikis/etc. above already exist. Are you sure you want to create a new <userEnteredEntityName> page/space/wiki/etc. instead of using one of the above?" We could go as far as to force the user to check a checkbox before the "Create" button becomes enabled/clickable. This could either be a configuration option, based on the desire/intent/wishes of the admin of that wiki/space. With a bit of effort, this could be done consistently for the entire "/create/" action and its plugged-in template providers. This will not solve anything if the user is already too lazy to search for existing entries before creating one. The one he wishes to create might be on the second page of the livetable and the lazy user will just go ahead and create the similar entry. For this to be relatively effective in reducing duplication, we would have to implement something on the lines of what I have described above with the "reuse sugestion". I`m not particularly against this approach (of adding create options in the list), since we were already doing this at some point and in some places, but I`m still -1 for scattering the create logic in various locations instead of using the centralized "Add" menu. If we don`t, we will have 99999 pages all inside the Main space and that's it. How`s that for a wiki gardening nightmare? :) Thanks, Eduard

Hi Caty, On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < valicac(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: Exactly :-) I'm +1 for this. As I've said before, I don't agree with this. Though I might be ok to keep the "Add space" action in there, with the improvements suggested by Edy, I strongly believe that the "Create new wiki" feature shouldn't be there. It's an infrequent action with strong consequences. It should be available as a tool from the main wiki, but definitely not from every page. Again, how often does any user create a new wiki? Even for a large organization, it will be mostly admins, and it will happen maybe a couple times a week after XWiki is launched internally. So in the end we have an action that is performed by *very few people, a handful of times*, and we put it on *every single page in the main wiki and all sub-wikis*. I'm afraid that keeping all 3 actions in the same button is consistency for consistency's sake, but it just doesn't match XWiki users' behavior, nor their expectations. Besides consistency, what is the rationale for having all 3 actions in one place? How do you back up your reasoning with actual user behavior? In your personal experience, how often do you use the "create wiki" button in its current location? IMO is not one way or the other (and I don't agree with the duplication I don't mind having more that one button for an action in specific cases. But I don't think the "Create wiki" action is one of those cases. Thanks, Guillaume

Hi, Le 29 sept. 2014 15:12, "Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)" &lt;valicac(a)gmail.com&gt; a écrit : re-add like keep Edy, I available organization, the Maybe it could be displayed in bold-red-italic-emphasized and proper warnings displayed when clicked ? Would seem less "dangerous" that way (even for admins) ? and button is users' one your its Homepages/Indexes) cases. treated it and where help that create the admin of see search might would with options in locations have a Page) in this similar to http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/ExplorerApp problem. the wikis they exist. creating a about

Le 29 sept. 2014 16:15, "Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)" &lt;valicac(a)gmail.com&gt; a écrit : a guillaume(a)xwiki.com&gt; Manager (just the to there. have You're right bad wording, creating wikis is not dangerous, but as roots of content organization, they have a strong impact on the latter. Also you could say there's some maintenance impact for the server admin (new db schemes to backup or any other db related activities). people, wiki in In in duplication enygma2002(a)gmail.com are IMO (i.e. content the cases really know suggest before a context. I pages create go above some will for < implicit from love location of now: actions, me

Hi Caty, On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 3:14 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < valicac(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: I'm not sure how you're coming to this conclusion. I never suggested moving an action that is related to a given page away from that page. If class "a" is stored in page "A", I don't see why the "Edit class a" button should be anywhere but on page "A". Theoretically, if XClasses were not a specific concept in XWiki we wouldn't need the multi-select "Edit" button (a single "Edit" button would automatically trigger class edition on a XWiki page holding a XClass definition), but that's another debate entirely. However, I don't see how creating the wiki "SomeWiki" would be related to page "A", which is why I'm suggesting moving the button some place else. How often do you need to RAPIDLY create a new wiki, an action which takes routinely takes several minutes to complete? Thanks, Guillaume

Hi Edy, On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:07 AM, Eduard Moraru &lt;enygma2002(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: I fully agree with this. However, I see organizations using XWiki every day that Again, it's not about preventing users from creating new wikis. My proposal is about moving an infrequent action (at least compared to the "create page" action) to a better-suited location. I don't see how that's not empowering users. Also, XWiki is a tool that is supposed to improve collaboration, not I'm calling it an infrequent action because it IS an infrequent action. Look at how we use it ourselves on the XWiki.org family of sites for instance: how often do you create a new sub-wiki, as opposed to adding new pages? There's nothing mystic about looking at basic data points. Oh, and don`t forget flavors, that are supposed to build even more on the Not bury it, put it in a logical place: the create button next to the list of items of the same type that already exist. According to the "promote it in the UI" logic, why not give every single option in XWiki a button on all pages? It would be amazing. <http://colemancountyinstitute.wikispaces.com/file/view/microsoft.jpg/146633399/microsoft.jpg> Thanks, Guillaume Perhaps it's just a problem of perception at this point.

On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:07 AM, Eduard Moraru &lt;enygma2002(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: That would be great, but does the user get the point, this is far from being the case actually. From a user stand point, explaining the difference between a wiki and a space is not easy. I have experiment that again this morning, and I have a very knowledgeable person in front of me. After presenting the structure, the question, "why do we need multiple wikis, since we have spaces ?", followed a few moment later by "Does the search box at the top search into all wikis ?". Because this is an infrequent action with strong consequences in the way you organize your information. From the sysadmin POV, it means a new DB, with potential consequences on its backup and replication procedures. From the user POV, it is not the simple click of a button, after answering curious questions about user access, it goes to the distribution wizard, and, if she persistent, finally reach a new situation, where the she have to understand she is in a subwiki, and that all operation from there, like using the search box (the same search box, from his POV), will be scoped by that subwiki. Frankly, I do not understand this could not be called an "an infrequent action with strong consequences", compare to page creation (and space creation which is basically the same). I have not seen any burying in Guillaume proposal, just a leveling of frequent actions and really less frequent one. That said, I doubt a lot of wiki will have that option available since most admin will limit the create_wiki right to knowledgeable users. And even, if the right is largely open, I doubt a lot of users will be persistent enough to fully finish the still complex process of creating a wiki. For sure, they will not do so very often, and therefore, that option will be in their way all the time for finally very casual usage. This is particularly true since this is the first option in the list. IMO the order of that list should be reversed: Page, Space, Wiki, from smallest to largest, from most frequent to less frequent, which was the order AFAIR in the initial Flamingo proposal. In regards to your CRUD principle, while you are fighting to keep the creation of wiki, why don't you expect to be able to add comments, attachment, object, classes, tags from the same button Add button ? These are frequent actions, that it would be nice to have there, and again was also (partly) in the initial Flamingo proposal. While the same proposal has never mentioned the Wiki in the Add menu. Finally, I am wondering why the proposal on which we agreed has been so much reworked during implementation. -- Denis Gervalle SOFTEC sa - CEO

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Guillaume Lerouge &lt;guillaume(a)xwiki.com&gt; wrote: Same note about a possible "problem of perception" as in my previous message. Thanks, Eduard