19 Nov
2018
19 Nov
'18
5:13 p.m.
Hi devs,
Some devs mentioned it’s too hard to release the N.11 release since it happens around
Christmas every year.
Here’s a proposal:
* Shorten the cycle to 11 releases instead of 12.
* Release N.9 at end of Nov
* Release N.10 at end of first week of Jan. Note: N.10RC1 would be released mid December
(about 17th of Dec to have 3 weeks of RC).
* Release N+1.0 at end of February. Start of N+1.0 work
Pros:
* No release during Christmas, yeah :)
* More time to prepare the first LTS bugfix release, i.e. N.10.1, which can be done during
the month of January.
* More time for the first released of N+1 (i.e. N+1.0). This is important since that’s the
release where we can do heavy refactoring and it’s not bad to get some more time.
Cons:
* One less release
WDYT? Do you see other cons?
Thanks
-Vincent
19 Nov
19 Nov
6:21 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Change of XS Cycle strategy to account for Christmas
+1
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 5:13 PM Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
Hi devs,
Some devs mentioned it’s too hard to release the N.11 release since it happens around
Christmas every year.
Here’s a proposal:
* Shorten the cycle to 11 releases instead of 12.
* Release N.9 at end of Nov
* Release N.10 at end of first week of Jan. Note: N.10RC1 would be released mid December
(about 17th of Dec to have 3 weeks of RC).
* Release N+1.0 at end of February. Start of N+1.0 work
Pros:
* No release during Christmas, yeah :)
* More time to prepare the first LTS bugfix release, i.e. N.10.1, which can be done
during the month of January.
* More time for the first released of N+1 (i.e. N+1.0). This is important since that’s
the release where we can do heavy refactoring and it’s not bad to get some more time.
Cons:
* One less release
WDYT? Do you see other cons?
Thanks
-Vincent
--
Thomas Mortagne
6:32 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Change of XS Cycle strategy to account for Christmas
On 19 Nov 2018, at 17:13, Vincent Massol
<vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
Hi devs,
Some devs mentioned it’s too hard to release the N.11 release since it happens around
Christmas every year.
Here’s a proposal:
* Shorten the cycle to 11 releases instead of 12.
* Release N.9 at end of Nov
* Release N.10 at end of first week of Jan. Note: N.10RC1 would be released mid December
(about 17th of Dec to have 3 weeks of RC).
* Release N+1.0 at end of February. Start of N+1.0 work
^^^
I forgot the end of the sentence:
Start of N+1.0 work will be when N.10 final is released, i.e. at beginning of second week
of January.
Thanks
-Vincent
Pros:
* No release during Christmas, yeah :)
* More time to prepare the first LTS bugfix release, i.e. N.10.1, which can be done
during the month of January.
* More time for the first released of N+1 (i.e. N+1.0). This is important since that’s
the release where we can do heavy refactoring and it’s not bad to get some more time.
Cons:
* One less release
WDYT? Do you see other cons?
Thanks
-Vincent
7:15 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Change of XS Cycle strategy to account for Christmas
Hi, Vincent.
+1 for the general goal of avoiding needless holiday stress.
Now, on the details, there is something I'm struggling to understand:
* I see that we have 2 options for finishing N.11:
A) In the middle of December (i.e. 10.11RC on 10th of Dec -2w- and 10.11
Final on 17 Dec -1w-), similar to what we did for 9.11.x (9.11RC1 was on
11th of Dec 2017 and 9.11 Final was on 18th of Dec 2017)
B) At the beginning of January (i.e. 10.11RC on 17th of Dec -3w- and 10.11
Final on the 7th of Jan 2019 -3w-)
** I would personally prefer A) in order to "close the books" before the
holiday season and start fresh in January. Anyone working during the
Holidays can start on N+1.0 or work on bugfixes for N.11.1.
* In both cases, N+1.0 should be same at the end of January, not February.
** Why would it have to be end of February, and thus lose a release, as
mentioned in your "Cons" section?
** I get it if it comes as a new proposal to double the length of N.0 to 2m
instead of 1 (for which I'd be +0, since I prefer less exceptions, if
possible), but I don't get it if we see it as a consequence of how we
handle holidays.
Side note: While trying to understand how all of this works, I can't but
help to notice how the week-based calculations don't add up, since a month
is 4.3(3) weeks long and everything planned around weeks is bound to be
distorted when you look at it by months. IMO, it would make more sense to
reason in terms of months (synchronized with our 12 releases cycle) and say
things like "last Monday of December". Not sure how easy it would be to
work with... just food for thought.
Thanks,
Eduard
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:13 PM Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
Hi devs,
Some devs mentioned it’s too hard to release the N.11 release since it
happens around Christmas every year.
Here’s a proposal:
* Shorten the cycle to 11 releases instead of 12.
* Release N.9 at end of Nov
* Release N.10 at end of first week of Jan. Note: N.10RC1 would be
released mid December (about 17th of Dec to have 3 weeks of RC).
* Release N+1.0 at end of February. Start of N+1.0 work
Pros:
* No release during Christmas, yeah :)
* More time to prepare the first LTS bugfix release, i.e. N.10.1, which
can be done during the month of January.
* More time for the first released of N+1 (i.e. N+1.0). This is important
since that’s the release where we can do heavy refactoring and it’s not bad
to get some more time.
Cons:
* One less release
WDYT? Do you see other cons?
Thanks
-Vincent
6 Dec
6 Dec
11:17 a.m.
New subject: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Change of XS Cycle strategy to account for Christmas
Hi Edy,
On 19 Nov 2018, at 19:15, Eduard Moraru
<enygma2002(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, Vincent.
+1 for the general goal of avoiding needless holiday stress.
Now, on the details, there is something I'm struggling to understand:
* I see that we have 2 options for finishing N.11:
A) In the middle of December (i.e. 10.11RC on 10th of Dec -2w- and 10.11
Final on 17 Dec -1w-), similar to what we did for 9.11.x (9.11RC1 was on
11th of Dec 2017 and 9.11 Final was on 18th of Dec 2017)
B) At the beginning of January (i.e. 10.11RC on 17th
of Dec -3w- and 10.11
Final on the 7th of Jan 2019 -3w-)
** I would personally prefer A) in order to "close the books" before the
holiday season and start fresh in January. Anyone working during the
Holidays can start on N+1.0 or work on bugfixes for N.11.1.
* In both cases, N+1.0 should be same at the end of January, not February.
** Why would it have to be end of February, and thus lose a release, as
mentioned in your "Cons" section?
** I get it if it comes as a new proposal to double the length of N.0 to 2m
instead of 1 (for which I'd be +0, since I prefer less exceptions, if
possible), but I don't get it if we see it as a consequence of how we
handle holidays.
Side note: While trying to understand how all of this works, I can't but
help to notice how the week-based calculations don't add up, since a month
is 4.3(3) weeks long and everything planned around weeks is bound to be
distorted when you look at it by months. IMO, it would make more sense to
reason in terms of months (synchronized with our 12 releases cycle) and say
things like "last Monday of December". Not sure how easy it would be to
work with... just food for thought.
Some comments:
1) We already work by months, see
https://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Roadmaps/#HXWiki10.xCycle. When we plan a given
release we adjust (a bit more days or a bit less days) so that it’s released before the
end of the month.
2) If I sum up your proposal A) it’s about saying that the last release would be shorter
than the other ones. Say half a month vs one month (we can’t guarantee 3 weeks vs 1 month
IMO since there can be delays for the previous release, people on early holidays, etc).
Pros and cons of option A vs option B:
* More logical, feel nice to have 12 releases for 12 months and to “fully” finish the N
cycle before new year starts (in practice it’s false, see below).
* More stressful, little margin for error and less time for the last release
* No time at all planned for the bug fix release we need to do for the LTS. That’s the
biggest issue for option A and what we saw in practice over the past years: we start the
new cycle at beginning of Jan and at the same time we have to do the bug fix release for
the LTS. In practice this usually means that N+1.0 has little progress in it.
Note that what we did in the past was slightly different:
* We planned for 11 releases (and not 12).
* We said that the end of the year (last month) was 2 stabilization releases of 2 weeks
each (no RCs).
IMO if we want to fully finish by end of year we need to include at least one bugfix
release for the LTS before the end of the year, which means stopping the dev at end of
November (i.e. N.10) and then do a first bugfix release (N.10.1) for mid December and a
last bugfix release (N.10.2) from Mid December to early January (2nd or 3rd of Jan).
I am under the impression that option B) (the one I proposed) would be less stressful. It
comes at the expense of 1 release less but I’m not sure that this would be a huge issue.
@Devs: what would you prefer?
Thanks
-Vincent
PS: We need to hurry to decide if we want to put this in place in the coming days… Might
be too late already for some options.
Thanks,
Eduard
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:13 PM Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
> Hi devs,
>
> Some devs mentioned it’s too hard to release the N.11 release since it
> happens around Christmas every year.
>
> Here’s a proposal:
>
> * Shorten the cycle to 11 releases instead of 12.
> * Release N.9 at end of Nov
> * Release N.10 at end of first week of Jan. Note: N.10RC1 would be
> released mid December (about 17th of Dec to have 3 weeks of RC).
> * Release N+1.0 at end of February. Start of N+1.0 work
>
> Pros:
> * No release during Christmas, yeah :)
> * More time to prepare the first LTS bugfix release, i.e. N.10.1, which
> can be done during the month of January.
> * More time for the first released of N+1 (i.e. N+1.0). This is important
> since that’s the release where we can do heavy refactoring and it’s not bad
> to get some more time.
>
> Cons:
> * One less release
>
> WDYT? Do you see other cons?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>
11:53 a.m.
New subject: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Change of XS Cycle strategy to account for Christmas
Hi all,
I'm ok with the first proposal to reduce at 11 releases instead of 12.
I think it allows indeed to better polish the latest release and avoid
lot of stress at the end of the year.
Now on the implem I'd agree more on your last mail, ie:
stopping the dev at end of November (i.e. N.10) and
then do a first
bugfix release (N.10.1) for mid December and a last bugfix release
(N.10.2) from Mid December to early January (2nd or 3rd of Jan).
than with your first one:
* Release N.9 at end of Nov
* Release N.10 at end of first week of Jan. Note: N.10RC1 would be >
released
mid December (about 17th of Dec to have 3 weeks of RC).
* Release N+1.0 at end of February. Start of N+1.0
work
So +1 for 11 releases, the 11th released at the end of november and then
december is completely used for bugfixing releases.
My 2 cents,
Simon
On 06/12/2018 11:17, Vincent Massol wrote:
Hi Edy,
--
Simon Urli
Software Engineer at XWiki SAS
simon.urli(a)xwiki.com
More about us at http://www.xwiki.com
On 19 Nov 2018, at 19:15, Eduard Moraru
<enygma2002(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, Vincent.
+1 for the general goal of avoiding needless holiday stress.
Now, on the details, there is something I'm struggling to understand:
* I see that we have 2 options for finishing N.11:
A) In the middle of December (i.e. 10.11RC on 10th of Dec -2w- and 10.11
Final on 17 Dec -1w-), similar to what we did for 9.11.x (9.11RC1 was on
11th of Dec 2017 and 9.11 Final was on 18th of Dec 2017)
B) At the beginning of January (i.e. 10.11RC on
17th of Dec -3w- and 10.11
Final on the 7th of Jan 2019 -3w-)
** I would personally prefer A) in order to "close the books" before the
holiday season and start fresh in January. Anyone working during the
Holidays can start on N+1.0 or work on bugfixes for N.11.1.
* In both cases, N+1.0 should be same at the end of January, not February.
** Why would it have to be end of February, and thus lose a release, as
mentioned in your "Cons" section?
** I get it if it comes as a new proposal to double the length of N.0 to 2m
instead of 1 (for which I'd be +0, since I prefer less exceptions, if
possible), but I don't get it if we see it as a consequence of how we
handle holidays.
Side note: While trying to understand how all of this works, I can't but
help to notice how the week-based calculations don't add up, since a month
is 4.3(3) weeks long and everything planned around weeks is bound to be
distorted when you look at it by months. IMO, it would make more sense to
reason in terms of months (synchronized with our 12 releases cycle) and say
things like "last Monday of December". Not sure how easy it would be to
work with... just food for thought.
Some comments:
1) We already work by months, see
https://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Roadmaps/#HXWiki10.xCycle. When we plan a given
release we adjust (a bit more days or a bit less days) so that it’s released before the
end of the month.
2) If I sum up your proposal A) it’s about saying that the last release would be shorter
than the other ones. Say half a month vs one month (we can’t guarantee 3 weeks vs 1 month
IMO since there can be delays for the previous release, people on early holidays, etc).
Pros and cons of option A vs option B:
* More logical, feel nice to have 12 releases for 12 months and to “fully” finish the N
cycle before new year starts (in practice it’s false, see below).
* More stressful, little margin for error and less time for the last release
* No time at all planned for the bug fix release we need to do for the LTS. That’s the
biggest issue for option A and what we saw in practice over the past years: we start the
new cycle at beginning of Jan and at the same time we have to do the bug fix release for
the LTS. In practice this usually means that N+1.0 has little progress in it.
Note that what we did in the past was slightly different:
* We planned for 11 releases (and not 12).
* We said that the end of the year (last month) was 2 stabilization releases of 2 weeks
each (no RCs).
IMO if we want to fully finish by end of year we need to include at least one bugfix
release for the LTS before the end of the year, which means stopping the dev at end of
November (i.e. N.10) and then do a first bugfix release (N.10.1) for mid December and a
last bugfix release (N.10.2) from Mid December to early January (2nd or 3rd of Jan).
I am under the impression that option B) (the one I proposed) would be less stressful. It
comes at the expense of 1 release less but I’m not sure that this would be a huge issue.
@Devs: what would you prefer?
Thanks
-Vincent
PS: We need to hurry to decide if we want to put this in place in the coming days… Might
be too late already for some options.
Thanks,
Eduard
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:13 PM Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
> Hi devs,
>
> Some devs mentioned it’s too hard to release the N.11 release since it
> happens around Christmas every year.
>
> Here’s a proposal:
>
> * Shorten the cycle to 11 releases instead of 12.
> * Release N.9 at end of Nov
> * Release N.10 at end of first week of Jan. Note: N.10RC1 would be
> released mid December (about 17th of Dec to have 3 weeks of RC).
> * Release N+1.0 at end of February. Start of N+1.0 work
>
> Pros:
> * No release during Christmas, yeah :)
> * More time to prepare the first LTS bugfix release, i.e. N.10.1, which
> can be done during the month of January.
> * More time for the first released of N+1 (i.e. N+1.0). This is important
> since that’s the release where we can do heavy refactoring and it’s not bad
> to get some more time.
>
> Cons:
> * One less release
>
> WDYT? Do you see other cons?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>
7 Dec
7 Dec
4:56 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Change of XS Cycle strategy to account for Christmas
On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 12:54 PM Simon Urli <simon.urli(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
Hi all,
I'm ok with the first proposal to reduce at 11 releases instead of 12.
I think it allows indeed to better polish the latest release and avoid
lot of stress at the end of the year.
Now on the implem I'd agree more on your last mail, ie:
stopping the dev at end of November (i.e. N.10)
and then do a first
bugfix release (N.10.1) for mid December and a last bugfix
release
(N.10.2) from Mid December to early January (2nd or 3rd of Jan).
than with your first one:
* Release N.9 at end of Nov
* Release N.10 at end of first week of Jan. Note: N.10RC1 would be >
released
mid December (about 17th of Dec to have 3 weeks of RC).
* Release N+1.0 at end of February. Start of
N+1.0 work
So +1 for 11 releases, the 11th released at the end of
november and then
december is completely used for bugfixing releases.
+1 as well.
Thanks,
Marius
My 2 cents,
Simon
On 06/12/2018 11:17, Vincent Massol wrote:
https://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Roadmaps/#HXWiki10.xCycle. When we
plan a given release we adjust (a bit more days or a bit less days) so that
it’s released before the end of the month.
--
Simon Urli
Software Engineer at XWiki SAS
simon.urli(a)xwiki.com
More about us at http://www.xwiki.com
Hi Edy,
10.11
On 19 Nov 2018, at 19:15, Eduard Moraru
<enygma2002(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, Vincent.
+1 for the general goal of avoiding needless holiday stress.
Now, on the details, there is something I'm struggling to understand:
* I see that we have 2 options for finishing N.11:
A) In the middle of December (i.e. 10.11RC on 10th of Dec -2w- and 10.11
Final on 17 Dec -1w-), similar to what we did for 9.11.x (9.11RC1 was on
11th of Dec 2017 and 9.11 Final was on 18th of Dec 2017)
> B) At the beginning of January (i.e. 10.11RC on 17th of Dec -3w- and > Final on the 7th of Jan 2019 -3w-)
> ** I would personally prefer A) in order to "close the books" before the
> holiday season and start fresh in January. Anyone working during the
> Holidays can start on N+1.0 or work on bugfixes for N.11.1.
> * In both cases, N+1.0 should be same at the end of January, not
February.
> ** Why would it have to be end of February,
and thus lose a release, as
> mentioned in your "Cons" section?
> ** I get it if it comes as a new proposal to double the length of N.0
to 2m
> instead of 1 (for which I'd be +0, since
I prefer less exceptions, if
> possible), but I don't get it if we see it as a consequence of how we
> handle holidays.
>
> Side note: While trying to understand how all of this works, I can't but
> help to notice how the week-based calculations don't add up, since a
month
> is 4.3(3) weeks long and everything planned
around weeks is bound to be
> distorted when you look at it by months. IMO, it would make more sense
to
> reason in terms of months (synchronized with
our 12 releases cycle) and
say
things
like "last Monday of December". Not sure how easy it would be to
work with... just food for thought.
Some comments:
1) We already work by months, see
2) If I sum up your proposal A) it’s about saying that the last release
would be
shorter than the other ones. Say half a month vs one month (we
can’t guarantee 3 weeks vs 1 month IMO since there can be delays for the
previous release, people on early holidays, etc).
Pros and cons of option A vs option B:
* More logical, feel nice to have 12 releases for 12 months and to
“fully” finish
the N cycle before new year starts (in practice it’s false,
see below).
* More stressful, little margin for error and
less time for the last
release
* No time at all planned for the bug fix release
we need to do for the
LTS. That’s the biggest issue for option A and what we saw in
practice over
the past years: we start the new cycle at beginning of Jan and at the same
time we have to do the bug fix release for the LTS. In practice this
usually means that N+1.0 has little progress in it.
Note that what we did in the past was slightly different:
* We planned for 11 releases (and not 12).
* We said that the end of the year (last month) was 2 stabilization
releases of 2
weeks each (no RCs).
IMO if we want to fully finish by end of year we need to include at
least one
bugfix release for the LTS before the end of the year, which
means stopping the dev at end of November (i.e. N.10) and then do a first
bugfix release (N.10.1) for mid December and a last bugfix release (N.10.2)
from Mid December to early January (2nd or 3rd of Jan).
I am under the impression that option B) (the one I proposed) would be
less
stressful. It comes at the expense of 1 release less but I’m not sure
that this would be a huge issue.
@Devs: what would you prefer?
Thanks
-Vincent
PS: We need to hurry to decide if we want to put this in place in the
coming days…
Might be too late already for some options.
>
> Thanks,
> Eduard
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:13 PM Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net>
wrote:
>
>> Hi devs,
>>
>> Some devs mentioned it’s too hard to release the N.11 release since it
>> happens around Christmas every year.
>>
>> Here’s a proposal:
>>
>> * Shorten the cycle to 11 releases instead of 12.
>> * Release N.9 at end of Nov
>> * Release N.10 at end of first week of Jan. Note: N.10RC1 would be
>> released mid December (about 17th of Dec to have 3 weeks of RC).
>> * Release N+1.0 at end of February. Start of N+1.0 work
>>
>> Pros:
>> * No release during Christmas, yeah :)
>> * More time to prepare the first LTS bugfix release, i.e. N.10.1, which
>> can be done during the month of January.
>> * More time for the first released of N+1 (i.e. N+1.0). This is
important
>> since that’s the release where we can do
heavy refactoring and it’s
not bad
> to
get some more time.
>
> Cons:
> * One less release
>
> WDYT? Do you see other cons?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>
6 Dec
6 Dec
11:57 a.m.
New subject: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Change of XS Cycle strategy to account for Christmas
On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 12:17 PM Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
Hi Edy,
I also like this version because:
* It encapsulates a cycle only in a year span, for example 10.x would go
mainly in 2018, not spanning also in January 2019. Yes, we will still have
other bugfixes, since it becomes the LTS, but they have a secondary focus,
not a primary one.
* Releasing bugfix releases is more easy than major releases, so it might
be easier / faster and help with the holiday period.
Thanks,
Caty
On 19 Nov 2018, at 19:15, Eduard Moraru
<enygma2002(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, Vincent.
+1 for the general goal of avoiding needless holiday stress.
Now, on the details, there is something I'm struggling to understand:
* I see that we have 2 options for finishing N.11:
A) In the middle of December (i.e. 10.11RC on 10th of Dec -2w- and 10.11
Final on 17 Dec -1w-), similar to what we did for 9.11.x (9.11RC1 was on
11th of Dec 2017 and 9.11 Final was on 18th of Dec 2017)
B) At the beginning of January (i.e. 10.11RC on
17th of Dec -3w- and
10.11
Final on the 7th of Jan 2019 -3w-)
** I would personally prefer A) in order to "close the books" before the
holiday season and start fresh in January. Anyone working during the
Holidays can start on N+1.0 or work on bugfixes for N.11.1.
* In both cases, N+1.0 should be same at the end of January, not
February.
** Why would it have to be end of February, and
thus lose a release, as
mentioned in your "Cons" section?
** I get it if it comes as a new proposal to double the length of N.0 to
2m
instead of 1 (for which I'd be +0, since I
prefer less exceptions, if
possible), but I don't get it if we see it as a consequence of how we
handle holidays.
Side note: While trying to understand how all of this works, I can't but
help to notice how the week-based calculations don't add up, since a
month
is 4.3(3) weeks long and everything planned
around weeks is bound to be
distorted when you look at it by months. IMO, it would make more sense to
reason in terms of months (synchronized with our 12 releases cycle) and
say
things like "last Monday of December".
Not sure how easy it would be to
work with... just food for thought.
Some comments:
1) We already work by months, see
https://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Roadmaps/#HXWiki10.xCycle. When we
plan a given release we adjust (a bit more days or a bit less days) so that
it’s released before the end of the month.
2) If I sum up your proposal A) it’s about saying that the last release
would be shorter than the other ones. Say half a month vs one month (we
can’t guarantee 3 weeks vs 1 month IMO since there can be delays for the
previous release, people on early holidays, etc).
Pros and cons of option A vs option B:
* More logical, feel nice to have 12 releases for 12 months and to “fully”
finish the N cycle before new year starts (in practice it’s false, see
below).
* More stressful, little margin for error and less time for the last
release
* No time at all planned for the bug fix release we need to do for the
LTS. That’s the biggest issue for option A and what we saw in practice over
the past years: we start the new cycle at beginning of Jan and at the same
time we have to do the bug fix release for the LTS. In practice this
usually means that N+1.0 has little progress in it.
Note that what we did in the past was slightly different:
* We planned for 11 releases (and not 12).
* We said that the end of the year (last month) was 2 stabilization
releases of 2 weeks each (no RCs).
IMO if we want to fully finish by end of year we need to include at least
one bugfix release for the LTS before the end of the year, which means
stopping the dev at end of November (i.e. N.10) and then do a first bugfix
release (N.10.1) for mid December and a last bugfix release (N.10.2) from
Mid December to early January (2nd or 3rd of Jan).
I am under the impression that option B) (the one I proposed) would be
less stressful. It comes at the expense of 1 release less but I’m not sure
that this would be a huge issue.
@Devs: what would you prefer?
Thanks
-Vincent
PS: We need to hurry to decide if we want to put this in place in the
coming days… Might be too late already for some options.
Thanks,
Eduard
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 6:13 PM Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net>
wrote:
> Hi devs,
>
> Some devs mentioned it’s too hard to release the N.11 release since it
> happens around Christmas every year.
>
> Here’s a proposal:
>
> * Shorten the cycle to 11 releases instead of 12.
> * Release N.9 at end of Nov
> * Release N.10 at end of first week of Jan. Note: N.10RC1 would be
> released mid December (about 17th of Dec to have 3 weeks of RC).
> * Release N+1.0 at end of February. Start of N+1.0 work
>
> Pros:
> * No release during Christmas, yeah :)
> * More time to prepare the first LTS bugfix release, i.e. N.10.1, which
> can be done during the month of January.
> * More time for the first released of N+1 (i.e. N+1.0). This is
important
> since that’s the release where we can do
heavy refactoring and it’s not
bad
> to get some more time.
>
> Cons:
> * One less release
>
> WDYT? Do you see other cons?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>
9 Dec
9 Dec
4:07 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Change of XS Cycle strategy to account for Christmas
Ok, summarizing again after feedback from Simon, Caty and Marius, here’s the proposal;
* Duration: 11 minor releases (e.g. N.0 till N.10), one each month, from January to
November.
* The last month of the year, December sees 2 bug fix releases, to stabilize the cycle:
N.10.1 and N.10.2. The releases are supposed to contain mostly bug fixes.
** Note that the N.10.2 release can happen on the first days of January to account for end
of year holidays but it should not go beyond the 3rd of January.
** Work for N+1.0 starts once N.10.2 has been released.
* When N.10.2 is released we announce it:
** Send mail mentioning that the cycle is over and encourage users to start using N.10.2
** In that mail, explain all the major features that were implemented during that release
cycle (make a special Release Notes for a Cycle)
* We announce the new LTS (N.10.x) once N+1.0 is released. Rationale:
** We need to have feedback on a release before it can be considered super stable and thus
we usually need a few bug fix releases before a version can be considered a good LTS. This
gives us one month to release additional bugfix releases for N.10.x in case it’s needed.
** This also allows us to always support 3 branches:
*** LTS branch
*** Stable branch
*** master (latest SNAPSHOT)
Note that I hesitated to announce the LTS when we released N.10.2 but after thinking about
it, I think it’s better to continue announcing it only when N+1.0 is released (i.e. at end
of January).
I have modified
https://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/VersioningAndReleasePractice…
already.
Once I have the final validation this is ok, I’m redo the screenshot at
https://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Community/VersioningAndReleasePrac…
Thanks
-Vincent
On 19 Nov 2018, at 17:13, Vincent Massol
<vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
Hi devs,
Some devs mentioned it’s too hard to release the N.11 release since it happens around
Christmas every year.
Here’s a proposal:
* Shorten the cycle to 11 releases instead of 12.
* Release N.9 at end of Nov
* Release N.10 at end of first week of Jan. Note: N.10RC1 would be released mid December
(about 17th of Dec to have 3 weeks of RC).
* Release N+1.0 at end of February. Start of N+1.0 work
Pros:
* No release during Christmas, yeah :)
* More time to prepare the first LTS bugfix release, i.e. N.10.1, which can be done
during the month of January.
* More time for the first released of N+1 (i.e. N+1.0). This is important since that’s
the release where we can do heavy refactoring and it’s not bad to get some more time.
Cons:
* One less release
WDYT? Do you see other cons?
Thanks
-Vincent
10 Dec
10 Dec
10:30 a.m.
New subject: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Change of XS Cycle strategy to account for Christmas
Hello,
+1 for the proposal.
Thanks,
Adel
On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 4:07 PM Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
Ok, summarizing again after feedback from Simon, Caty and Marius, here’s the proposal;
* Duration: 11 minor releases (e.g. N.0 till N.10), one each month, from January to
November.
* The last month of the year, December sees 2 bug fix releases, to stabilize the cycle:
N.10.1 and N.10.2. The releases are supposed to contain mostly bug fixes.
** Note that the N.10.2 release can happen on the first days of January to account for
end of year holidays but it should not go beyond the 3rd of January.
** Work for N+1.0 starts once N.10.2 has been released.
* When N.10.2 is released we announce it:
** Send mail mentioning that the cycle is over and encourage users to start using N.10.2
** In that mail, explain all the major features that were implemented during that release
cycle (make a special Release Notes for a Cycle)
* We announce the new LTS (N.10.x) once N+1.0 is released. Rationale:
** We need to have feedback on a release before it can be considered super stable and
thus we usually need a few bug fix releases before a version can be considered a good LTS.
This gives us one month to release additional bugfix releases for N.10.x in case it’s
needed.
** This also allows us to always support 3 branches:
*** LTS branch
*** Stable branch
*** master (latest SNAPSHOT)
Note that I hesitated to announce the LTS when we released N.10.2 but after thinking
about it, I think it’s better to continue announcing it only when N+1.0 is released (i.e.
at end of January).
I have modified
https://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/VersioningAndReleasePractice…
already.
Once I have the final validation this is ok, I’m redo the screenshot at
https://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Community/VersioningAndReleasePrac…
Thanks
-Vincent
On 19 Nov 2018, at 17:13, Vincent Massol
<vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
Hi devs,
Some devs mentioned it’s too hard to release the N.11 release since it happens around
Christmas every year.
Here’s a proposal:
* Shorten the cycle to 11 releases instead of 12.
* Release N.9 at end of Nov
* Release N.10 at end of first week of Jan. Note: N.10RC1 would be released mid December
(about 17th of Dec to have 3 weeks of RC).
* Release N+1.0 at end of February. Start of N+1.0 work
Pros:
* No release during Christmas, yeah :)
* More time to prepare the first LTS bugfix release, i.e. N.10.1, which can be done
during the month of January.
* More time for the first released of N+1 (i.e. N+1.0). This is important since that’s
the release where we can do heavy refactoring and it’s not bad to get some more time.
Cons:
* One less release
WDYT? Do you see other cons?
Thanks
-Vincent
10:52 a.m.
New subject: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Change of XS Cycle strategy to account for Christmas
+1
On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 4:07 PM Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
Ok, summarizing again after feedback from Simon, Caty and Marius, here’s the proposal;
* Duration: 11 minor releases (e.g. N.0 till N.10), one each month, from January to
November.
* The last month of the year, December sees 2 bug fix releases, to stabilize the cycle:
N.10.1 and N.10.2. The releases are supposed to contain mostly bug fixes.
** Note that the N.10.2 release can happen on the first days of January to account for
end of year holidays but it should not go beyond the 3rd of January.
** Work for N+1.0 starts once N.10.2 has been released.
* When N.10.2 is released we announce it:
** Send mail mentioning that the cycle is over and encourage users to start using N.10.2
** In that mail, explain all the major features that were implemented during that release
cycle (make a special Release Notes for a Cycle)
* We announce the new LTS (N.10.x) once N+1.0 is released. Rationale:
** We need to have feedback on a release before it can be considered super stable and
thus we usually need a few bug fix releases before a version can be considered a good LTS.
This gives us one month to release additional bugfix releases for N.10.x in case it’s
needed.
** This also allows us to always support 3 branches:
*** LTS branch
*** Stable branch
*** master (latest SNAPSHOT)
Note that I hesitated to announce the LTS when we released N.10.2 but after thinking
about it, I think it’s better to continue announcing it only when N+1.0 is released (i.e.
at end of January).
I have modified
https://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/VersioningAndReleasePractice…
already.
Once I have the final validation this is ok, I’m redo the screenshot at
https://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Community/VersioningAndReleasePrac…
Thanks
-Vincent
--
Thomas Mortagne
On 19 Nov 2018, at 17:13, Vincent Massol
<vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
Hi devs,
Some devs mentioned it’s too hard to release the N.11 release since it happens around
Christmas every year.
Here’s a proposal:
* Shorten the cycle to 11 releases instead of 12.
* Release N.9 at end of Nov
* Release N.10 at end of first week of Jan. Note: N.10RC1 would be released mid December
(about 17th of Dec to have 3 weeks of RC).
* Release N+1.0 at end of February. Start of N+1.0 work
Pros:
* No release during Christmas, yeah :)
* More time to prepare the first LTS bugfix release, i.e. N.10.1, which can be done
during the month of January.
* More time for the first released of N+1 (i.e. N+1.0). This is important since that’s
the release where we can do heavy refactoring and it’s not bad to get some more time.
Cons:
* One less release
WDYT? Do you see other cons?
Thanks
-Vincent
11:35 a.m.
New subject: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Change of XS Cycle strategy to account for Christmas
+1
Thanks,
Marius
On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 5:07 PM Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
Ok, summarizing again after feedback from Simon, Caty
and Marius, here’s
the proposal;
* Duration: 11 minor releases (e.g. N.0 till N.10), one each month, from
January to November.
* The last month of the year, December sees 2 bug fix releases, to
stabilize the cycle: N.10.1 and N.10.2. The releases are supposed to
contain mostly bug fixes.
** Note that the N.10.2 release can happen on the first days of January to
account for end of year holidays but it should not go beyond the 3rd of
January.
** Work for N+1.0 starts once N.10.2 has been released.
* When N.10.2 is released we announce it:
** Send mail mentioning that the cycle is over and encourage users to
start using N.10.2
** In that mail, explain all the major features that were implemented
during that release cycle (make a special Release Notes for a Cycle)
* We announce the new LTS (N.10.x) once N+1.0 is released. Rationale:
** We need to have feedback on a release before it can be considered super
stable and thus we usually need a few bug fix releases before a version can
be considered a good LTS. This gives us one month to release additional
bugfix releases for N.10.x in case it’s needed.
** This also allows us to always support 3 branches:
*** LTS branch
*** Stable branch
*** master (latest SNAPSHOT)
Note that I hesitated to announce the LTS when we released N.10.2 but
after thinking about it, I think it’s better to continue announcing it only
when N+1.0 is released (i.e. at end of January).
I have modified
https://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/VersioningAndReleasePractice…
already.
Once I have the final validation this is ok, I’m redo the screenshot at
https://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Community/VersioningAndReleasePrac…
Thanks
-Vincent
On 19 Nov 2018, at 17:13, Vincent Massol
<vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
Hi devs,
Some devs mentioned it’s too hard to release the N.11 release since it
happens
around Christmas every year.
Here’s a proposal:
* Shorten the cycle to 11 releases instead of 12.
* Release N.9 at end of Nov
* Release N.10 at end of first week of Jan. Note: N.10RC1 would be
released mid
December (about 17th of Dec to have 3 weeks of RC).
* Release N+1.0 at end of February. Start of
N+1.0 work
Pros:
* No release during Christmas, yeah :)
* More time to prepare the first LTS bugfix release, i.e. N.10.1, which
can be
done during the month of January.
* More time for the first released of N+1 (i.e.
N+1.0). This is
important since that’s the release where we can do heavy
refactoring and
it’s not bad to get some more time.
Cons:
* One less release
WDYT? Do you see other cons?
Thanks
-Vincent
12:04 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Change of XS Cycle strategy to account for Christmas
+1
Thanks,
Caty
On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 12:36 PM Marius Dumitru Florea <
mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
+1
Thanks,
Marius
On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 5:07 PM Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
Ok, summarizing again after feedback from Simon,
Caty and Marius, here’s
the proposal;
* Duration: 11 minor releases (e.g. N.0 till N.10), one each month, from
January to November.
* The last month of the year, December sees 2 bug fix releases, to
stabilize the cycle: N.10.1 and N.10.2. The releases are supposed to
contain mostly bug fixes.
** Note that the N.10.2 release can happen on the first days of January
to
account for end of year holidays but it should
not go beyond the 3rd of
January.
** Work for N+1.0 starts once N.10.2 has been released.
* When N.10.2 is released we announce it:
** Send mail mentioning that the cycle is over and encourage users to
start using N.10.2
** In that mail, explain all the major features that were implemented
during that release cycle (make a special Release Notes for a Cycle)
* We announce the new LTS (N.10.x) once N+1.0 is released. Rationale:
** We need to have feedback on a release before it can be considered
super
stable and thus we usually need a few bug fix
releases before a version
can
be considered a good LTS. This gives us one month
to release additional
bugfix releases for N.10.x in case it’s needed.
** This also allows us to always support 3 branches:
*** LTS branch
*** Stable branch
*** master (latest SNAPSHOT)
Note that I hesitated to announce the LTS when we released N.10.2 but
after thinking about it, I think it’s better to continue announcing it
only
when N+1.0 is released (i.e. at end of January).
I have modified
https://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/VersioningAndReleasePractice…
already.
Once I have the final validation this is ok, I’m redo the screenshot at
https://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Community/VersioningAndReleasePrac…
Thanks
-Vincent
On 19 Nov 2018, at 17:13, Vincent Massol
<vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
Hi devs,
Some devs mentioned it’s too hard to release the N.11 release since it
happens
around Christmas every year.
Here’s a proposal:
* Shorten the cycle to 11 releases instead of 12.
* Release N.9 at end of Nov
* Release N.10 at end of first week of Jan. Note: N.10RC1 would be
released mid
December (about 17th of Dec to have 3 weeks of RC).
* Release N+1.0 at end of February. Start of
N+1.0 work
Pros:
* No release during Christmas, yeah :)
* More time to prepare the first LTS bugfix release, i.e. N.10.1, which
can be
done during the month of January.
* More time for the first released of N+1 (i.e.
N+1.0). This is
important since that’s the release where we can do heavy
refactoring and
it’s not bad to get some more time.
Cons:
* One less release
WDYT? Do you see other cons?
Thanks
-Vincent
12:14 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Change of XS Cycle strategy to account for Christmas
Hi,
On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 5:07 PM Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
Ok, summarizing again after feedback from Simon, Caty
and Marius, here’s
the proposal;
* Duration: 11 minor releases (e.g. N.0 till N.10), one each month, from
January to November.
* The last month of the year, December sees 2 bug fix releases, to
stabilize the cycle: N.10.1 and N.10.2. The releases are supposed to
contain mostly bug fixes.
** Note that the N.10.2 release can happen on the first days of January to
account for end of year holidays but it should not go beyond the 3rd of
January.
** Work for N+1.0 starts once N.10.2 has been released.
Note that, AFAIU, work for N+1.0 *can* actually start beginning with
December, i.e. once N.10 is released and the master branch becomes
N+1.0-SNAPSHOT. However, the main focus *should* go on the N.10.x
stabilization branch until EOY (N.10.2).
* When N.10.2 is released we announce it:
** Send mail mentioning that the cycle is over and encourage users to
start using N.10.2
** In that mail, explain all the major features that were implemented
during that release cycle (make a special Release Notes for a Cycle)
* We announce the new LTS (N.10.x) once N+1.0 is released. Rationale:
** We need to have feedback on a release before it can be considered super
stable and thus we usually need a few bug fix releases before a version can
be considered a good LTS. This gives us one month to release additional
bugfix releases for N.10.x in case it’s needed.
** This also allows us to always support 3 branches:
*** LTS branch
*** Stable branch
*** master (latest SNAPSHOT)
Note that I hesitated to announce the LTS when we released N.10.2 but
after thinking about it, I think it’s better to continue announcing it only
when N+1.0 is released (i.e. at end of January).
I have modified
https://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/VersioningAndReleasePractice…
already.
Once I have the final validation this is ok, I’m redo the screenshot at
https://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Community/VersioningAndReleasePrac…
Thanks
-Vincent
+1.
Thanks,
Eduard
On 19 Nov 2018, at 17:13, Vincent Massol
<vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
Hi devs,
Some devs mentioned it’s too hard to release the N.11 release since it
happens
around Christmas every year.
Here’s a proposal:
* Shorten the cycle to 11 releases instead of 12.
* Release N.9 at end of Nov
* Release N.10 at end of first week of Jan. Note: N.10RC1 would be
released mid
December (about 17th of Dec to have 3 weeks of RC).
* Release N+1.0 at end of February. Start of
N+1.0 work
Pros:
* No release during Christmas, yeah :)
* More time to prepare the first LTS bugfix release, i.e. N.10.1, which
can be
done during the month of January.
* More time for the first released of N+1 (i.e.
N+1.0). This is
important since that’s the release where we can do heavy
refactoring and
it’s not bad to get some more time.
Cons:
* One less release
WDYT? Do you see other cons?
Thanks
-Vincent
12:58 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Change of XS Cycle strategy to account for Christmas
On 10 Dec 2018, at 12:14, Eduard Moraru
<enygma2002(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 5:07 PM Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
Yes, the reason I’d prefer to start the work for N+1.0 only after N.10.2 is released is
because I feel it’s better to have everyone focused on N.x and to make sure it’s as good
as it can be (rather than starting working on N+1.x). Also it mean everyone helps,
including fixing the build, etc.
Thanks
-Vincent
Ok, summarizing again after feedback from Simon,
Caty and Marius, here’s
the proposal;
* Duration: 11 minor releases (e.g. N.0 till N.10), one each month, from
January to November.
* The last month of the year, December sees 2 bug fix releases, to
stabilize the cycle: N.10.1 and N.10.2. The releases are supposed to
contain mostly bug fixes.
** Note that the N.10.2 release can happen on the first days of January to
account for end of year holidays but it should not go beyond the 3rd of
January.
** Work for N+1.0 starts once N.10.2 has been released.
Note that, AFAIU, work for N+1.0 *can* actually start beginning with
December, i.e. once N.10 is released and the master branch becomes
N+1.0-SNAPSHOT. However, the main focus *should* go on the N.10.x
stabilization branch until EOY (N.10.2). * When N.10.2 is released we announce it:
** Send mail mentioning that the cycle is over and encourage users to
start using N.10.2
** In that mail, explain all the major features that were implemented
during that release cycle (make a special Release Notes for a Cycle)
* We announce the new LTS (N.10.x) once N+1.0 is released. Rationale:
** We need to have feedback on a release before it can be considered super
stable and thus we usually need a few bug fix releases before a version can
be considered a good LTS. This gives us one month to release additional
bugfix releases for N.10.x in case it’s needed.
** This also allows us to always support 3 branches:
*** LTS branch
*** Stable branch
*** master (latest SNAPSHOT)
Note that I hesitated to announce the LTS when we released N.10.2 but
after thinking about it, I think it’s better to continue announcing it only
when N+1.0 is released (i.e. at end of January).
I have modified
https://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/VersioningAndReleasePractice…
already.
Once I have the final validation this is ok, I’m redo the screenshot at
https://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Community/VersioningAndReleasePrac…
Thanks
-Vincent
+1.
Thanks,
Eduard
>
>> On 19 Nov 2018, at 17:13, Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi devs,
>>
>> Some devs mentioned it’s too hard to release the N.11 release since it
> happens around Christmas every year.
>>
>> Here’s a proposal:
>>
>> * Shorten the cycle to 11 releases instead of 12.
>> * Release N.9 at end of Nov
>> * Release N.10 at end of first week of Jan. Note: N.10RC1 would be
> released mid December (about 17th of Dec to have 3 weeks of RC).
>> * Release N+1.0 at end of February. Start of N+1.0 work
>>
>> Pros:
>> * No release during Christmas, yeah :)
>> * More time to prepare the first LTS bugfix release, i.e. N.10.1, which
> can be done during the month of January.
>> * More time for the first released of N+1 (i.e. N+1.0). This is
> important since that’s the release where we can do heavy refactoring and
> it’s not bad to get some more time.
>>
>> Cons:
>> * One less release
>>
>> WDYT? Do you see other cons?
>>
>> Thanks
>> -Vincent
20 Jan
20 Jan
3:25 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-devs] [Proposal] Change of XS Cycle strategy to account for Christmas
Hi devs,
On 9 Dec 2018, at 16:07, Vincent Massol
<vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
Ok, summarizing again after feedback from Simon, Caty and Marius, here’s the proposal;
* Duration: 11 minor releases (e.g. N.0 till N.10), one each month, from January to
November.
* The last month of the year, December sees 2 bug fix releases, to stabilize the cycle:
N.10.1 and N.10.2. The releases are supposed to contain mostly bug fixes.
** Note that the N.10.2 release can happen on the first days of January to account for
end of year holidays but it should not go beyond the 3rd of January.
** Work for N+1.0 starts once N.10.2 has been released.
* When N.10.2 is released we announce it:
** Send mail mentioning that the cycle is over and encourage users to start using N.10.2
** In that mail, explain all the major features that were implemented during that release
cycle (make a special Release Notes for a Cycle)
* We announce the new LTS (N.10.x) once N+1.0 is released. Rationale:
** We need to have feedback on a release before it can be considered super stable and
thus we usually need a few bug fix releases before a version can be considered a good LTS.
This gives us one month to release additional bugfix releases for N.10.x in case it’s
needed.
** This also allows us to always support 3 branches:
*** LTS branch
*** Stable branch
*** master (latest SNAPSHOT)
Note that I hesitated to announce the LTS when we released N.10.2 but after thinking
about it, I think it’s better to continue announcing it only when N+1.0 is released (i.e.
at end of January).
I have modified
https://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/VersioningAndReleasePractice…
already.
Once I have the final validation this is ok, I’m redo the screenshot at
https://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Community/VersioningAndReleasePrac…
I have now recreated the releasecycle image, see
https://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Community/VersioningAndReleasePractice…
So now we need to remember that this year we’ll go till 11.10, then 11.10.1 and 11.10.2 at
end of year 2019.
Thanks
-Vincent
Thanks
-Vincent
On 19 Nov 2018, at 17:13, Vincent Massol
<vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
Hi devs,
Some devs mentioned it’s too hard to release the N.11 release since it happens around
Christmas every year.
Here’s a proposal:
* Shorten the cycle to 11 releases instead of 12.
* Release N.9 at end of Nov
* Release N.10 at end of first week of Jan. Note: N.10RC1 would be released mid December
(about 17th of Dec to have 3 weeks of RC).
* Release N+1.0 at end of February. Start of N+1.0 work
Pros:
* No release during Christmas, yeah :)
* More time to prepare the first LTS bugfix release, i.e. N.10.1, which can be done
during the month of January.
* More time for the first released of N+1 (i.e. N+1.0). This is important since that’s
the release where we can do heavy refactoring and it’s not bad to get some more time.
Cons:
* One less release
WDYT? Do you see other cons?
Thanks
-Vincent
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participants (7)
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Adel Atallah -
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) -
Eduard Moraru -
Marius Dumitru Florea -
Simon Urli -
Thomas Mortagne -
Vincent Massol