Hi Vincent, On 30/01/2019 09:05, Vincent Massol wrote: Notes by also adding developer-oriented release notes. for our **users**, because looking at the JIRA list is too technical (otherwise we could simply use the Release feature of JIRA! :)). These were not for pure developers but for XWiki users who are more advanced and can write scripts in wiki pages. And when it’s the case we **must** add examples, otherwise, it’s completely useless. https://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/ReleaseNotes/Data/XWiki/11.0/Change004/ participated to the dev mailing list discussion about it read the JIRAs. We always link the JIRA issues in the RN anyway (it was for this reason that we’re listing them). they are for scripting users and not APIs. For example, document some new script service or some additions to existing script services. Of course Groovy would allow you to call any API so being able to use it from Groovy is not a good criteria. I’d say that the criteria should be whether the Release Note Change is useful for Velocity users. better name?) time to explain properly what it’s about. Actually reading the examples you give, I'm a bit mixed: I agreed that for the first one "the PropertyDisplayType" an example might be given: can be good to actually have the "example" box in the RN form. For the second one about legacy profile activated, actually I don't really know what's the impact for the users, and if he could change something about it. So I don't see how we could provide an example. So I have the feeling that the first one could be indeed adressed to Scripters (and even there, it's not a new scripting API, they could only use it in groovy scripts). And that the second one can be important for some administrators, but not for Scripters on the contrary. I might be wrong here but "Scripters" does not fit IMO and trying to find a new name might lead to create new categories actually. To be a bit more constructive I'd say that maybe for those changes we should not focus on a role but just say "Advanced changes". My 2 cents, Simon -- Simon Urli Software Engineer at XWiki SAS simon.urli(a)xwiki.com More about us at http://www.xwiki.com

On 30 Jan 2019, at 18:09, Marius Dumitru Florea <mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote: Yes, it looks nice, but SonarQube is a different kind of product. I don't think it's a development platform like us..

On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 6:41 PM Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote: > BTW I really like the quality of the SonarQube release notes: > * Not too much (nobody reads when there’s too much) > * Only document important highlights and make the RN nice for them (nice > screenshots, nice doc) > > https://www.sonarqube.org/sonarqube-7-6/ > > WDYT? > > Thanks > -Vincent > >> On 25 Jan 2019, at 09:31, Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote: >> >> Hi devs, >> >> Context >> ======= >> >> It’s been since we’ve deviated from the original purpose of the Release > Notes by also adding developer-oriented release notes. >> >> The goal of the Release Notes was to **highlight** important novelties > for our **users**, because looking at the JIRA list is too technical > (otherwise we could simply use the Release feature of JIRA! :)). >> >> So you may ask why we do have a “Developer” Category in the RN app. > These were not for pure developers but for XWiki users who are more > advanced and can write scripts in wiki pages. And when it’s the case we > **must** add examples, otherwise, it’s completely useless. >> >> For example this morning I saw this RN added: >> > https://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/ReleaseNotes/Data/XWiki/11.0/Change004/ >> >> This is typically something that has very little value to me: >> * It’s for pure developers (java devs) >> * It’s not understandable by anyone except the person who coded it or > participated to the dev mailing list discussion about it >> * It doesn’t say more than what’s in the JIRA issue so what’s the point? >> * There are no examples at all in it! >> * Real developers can simply look at the reference documentation or can > read the JIRAs. We always link the JIRA issues in the RN anyway (it was for > this reason that we’re listing them). >> * It takes time to write RN items and thus it needs to have high value >> >> Proposal >> ======== >> >> * Go back to the original idea and only list developer RN items when > they are for scripting users and not APIs. For example, document some new > script service or some additions to existing script services. Of course > Groovy would allow you to call any API so being able to use it from Groovy > is not a good criteria. I’d say that the criteria should be whether the > Release Note Change is useful for Velocity users. >> * Rename “Developers” into “Scripters” or or “Advanced Users” (any > better name?) >> * Always put an example when writing a “developer” change and take the > time to explain properly what it’s about. >> >> WDYT? >> >> Thanks >> -Vincent >> > >

On 31 Jan 2019, at 09:24, Denis Gervalle <dgl(a)softec.lu> wrote: Hi Vincent, Maybe, we need to introduce an Advanced checkbox in the RN, and publish it in two parts. One part would be expanded, and very visible, and the other one, need some action from the user to be shown. Normal users will therefore get what you expect, and more interested people still have that insightful information they delight. As an advanced user, I really don’t see JIRA as release notes, since JIRA also contains a bunch of very non-significant information, and the way the issue is written, is also sometimes confusing since it might contain a discussion. Reading a list of JIRA issue is not a usual way to be updated, you check them mainly when you have a specific problem.

Just my thought as an interested user of some technical highlights. And I most agree with your remarks about the way those note are written, there is plenty of room for improvement there, to really distinguish them from the JIRA issue. Thanks, -- Denis Gervalle SOFTEC sa - CEO On 31 Jan 2019, 08:27 +0100, Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net>et>, wrote: > > >> On 30 Jan 2019, at 18:09, Marius Dumitru Florea <mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote: >> >> Yes, it looks nice, but SonarQube is a different kind of product. I don't >> think it's a development platform like us.. > > Yes (although you could argue about that). However I still believe that to attract and keep users (which is our primary objective IMO), we should focus on RN for users (Highlights only and not 100% transform JIRA issues into RN items) and for developers simply link to reference documentation. > > In other words, focus on quality vs quantity for the RN. Our full RN is the JIRA list. Our RN page is supposed to be an extract of the full JIRA list. > > Am I the only one to think this? :) > > Thanks > -Vincent > >> >> On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 6:41 PM Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote: >> >>> BTW I really like the quality of the SonarQube release notes: >>> * Not too much (nobody reads when there’s too much) >>> * Only document important highlights and make the RN nice for them (nice >>> screenshots, nice doc) >>> >>> https://www.sonarqube.org/sonarqube-7-6/ >>> >>> WDYT? >>> >>> Thanks >>> -Vincent >>> >>>> On 25 Jan 2019, at 09:31, Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi devs, >>>> >>>> Context >>>> ======= >>>> >>>> It’s been since we’ve deviated from the original purpose of the Release >>> Notes by also adding developer-oriented release notes. >>>> >>>> The goal of the Release Notes was to **highlight** important novelties >>> for our **users**, because looking at the JIRA list is too technical >>> (otherwise we could simply use the Release feature of JIRA! :)). >>>> >>>> So you may ask why we do have a “Developer” Category in the RN app. >>> These were not for pure developers but for XWiki users who are more >>> advanced and can write scripts in wiki pages. And when it’s the case we >>> **must** add examples, otherwise, it’s completely useless. >>>> >>>> For example this morning I saw this RN added: >>>> >>> https://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/ReleaseNotes/Data/XWiki/11.0/Change004/ >>>> >>>> This is typically something that has very little value to me: >>>> * It’s for pure developers (java devs) >>>> * It’s not understandable by anyone except the person who coded it or >>> participated to the dev mailing list discussion about it >>>> * It doesn’t say more than what’s in the JIRA issue so what’s the point? >>>> * There are no examples at all in it! >>>> * Real developers can simply look at the reference documentation or can >>> read the JIRAs. We always link the JIRA issues in the RN anyway (it was for >>> this reason that we’re listing them). >>>> * It takes time to write RN items and thus it needs to have high value >>>> >>>> Proposal >>>> ======== >>>> >>>> * Go back to the original idea and only list developer RN items when >>> they are for scripting users and not APIs. For example, document some new >>> script service or some additions to existing script services. Of course >>> Groovy would allow you to call any API so being able to use it from Groovy >>> is not a good criteria. I’d say that the criteria should be whether the >>> Release Note Change is useful for Velocity users. >>>> * Rename “Developers” into “Scripters” or or “Advanced Users” (any >>> better name?) >>>> * Always put an example when writing a “developer” change and take the >>> time to explain properly what it’s about. >>>> >>>> WDYT? >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> -Vincent >>>> >>> >>> >

On 31 Jan 2019, at 11:23, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com> wrote: Hi, What I don't like about this is the fact that, because of the rule that says that all closed issues must have assigned documentation links (including in the RN), the developer now has to make yet another decision, and a pretty subjective one, this time. You (the dev) need to decide if the issue you've just worked on is RN worthy... a decision that can be problematic at multiple levels and I foresee possible friction (e.g. you believe you're done with your issue and, on the last minute or at release day, someone starts telling you that it should have been documented in the RN, when you had previously decided that it was not the case).

Re "Developers", I also prefer to keep it and to target both "advanced users" and "platform users" (i.e. extension devs that would normally be interested in API changes). IMO, it's more important to focus in the RN on explaining what *changes* in the platform's behavior with the modification that was performed, nor only in explaining what the modification does.

Also, AFAIR, we used to consider the issue tracker as "ephemeral" so the fact that we are listing the issues that might be gone at some point might no be very helpful on the long run.

So I see the proposal as slightly conflicting with the potentially vanishing list of issues and the rule that requires dev to always document (including in the RN). IMO, we already deploy an "importance" ordering and we have the Miscellaneous section that readers can easily skip. I agree with Marius when he says that XWiki and SonarQube are completely different beasts.

An even more extreme approach, building on what Denis suggested, is to break the RN into completely separate pages, for Users, Devs and Admins... but I just feel we're creating busy work for ourselves at this point…

IMO, our current approach works. Sure, we might have to avoid cryptic lines in the Miscellaneous section, but that's something we can improve.

Thanks, Eduard On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 10:36 AM Vincent Massol &lt;vincent(a)massol.net&gt; wrote: > > >> On 31 Jan 2019, at 09:24, Denis Gervalle &lt;dgl(a)softec.lu&gt; wrote: >> >> Hi Vincent, >> >> Maybe, we need to introduce an Advanced checkbox in the RN, and publish > it in two parts. One part would be expanded, and very visible, and the > other one, need some action from the user to be shown. Normal users will > therefore get what you expect, and more interested people still have that > insightful information they delight. As an advanced user, I really don’t > see JIRA as release notes, since JIRA also contains a bunch of very > non-significant information, and the way the issue is written, is also > sometimes confusing since it might contain a discussion. Reading a list of > JIRA issue is not a usual way to be updated, you check them mainly when you > have a specific problem. > > Thanks Denis. Good feedback > > I agree. There’s just one aspect to take into consideration: the cost :) > > In the end it’s a cost/benefit ratio. Also we document in the reference > documentation so for me just links to reference doc for developer changes > could be enough (especially if we use the “Since XXX” information in the > reference doc). > > Thanks > -Vincent > >> Just my thought as an interested user of some technical highlights. And > I most agree with your remarks about the way those note are written, there > is plenty of room for improvement there, to really distinguish them from > the JIRA issue. >> >> Thanks, >> >> -- >> Denis Gervalle >> SOFTEC sa - CEO >> On 31 Jan 2019, 08:27 +0100, Vincent Massol &lt;vincent(a)massol.net&gt;et>, wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On 30 Jan 2019, at 18:09, Marius Dumitru Florea < > mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com&gt; wrote: >>>> >>>> Yes, it looks nice, but SonarQube is a different kind of product. I > don't >>>> think it's a development platform like us.. >>> >>> Yes (although you could argue about that). However I still believe that > to attract and keep users (which is our primary objective IMO), we should > focus on RN for users (Highlights only and not 100% transform JIRA issues > into RN items) and for developers simply link to reference documentation. >>> >>> In other words, focus on quality vs quantity for the RN. Our full RN is > the JIRA list. Our RN page is supposed to be an extract of the full JIRA > list. >>> >>> Am I the only one to think this? :) >>> >>> Thanks >>> -Vincent >>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 6:41 PM Vincent Massol &lt;vincent(a)massol.net&gt; > wrote: >>>> >>>>> BTW I really like the quality of the SonarQube release notes: >>>>> * Not too much (nobody reads when there’s too much) >>>>> * Only document important highlights and make the RN nice for them > (nice >>>>> screenshots, nice doc) >>>>> >>>>> https://www.sonarqube.org/sonarqube-7-6/ >>>>> >>>>> WDYT? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> -Vincent >>>>> >>>>>> On 25 Jan 2019, at 09:31, Vincent Massol &lt;vincent(a)massol.net&gt; wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi devs, >>>>>> >>>>>> Context >>>>>> ======= >>>>>> >>>>>> It’s been since we’ve deviated from the original purpose of the > Release >>>>> Notes by also adding developer-oriented release notes. >>>>>> >>>>>> The goal of the Release Notes was to **highlight** important > novelties >>>>> for our **users**, because looking at the JIRA list is too technical >>>>> (otherwise we could simply use the Release feature of JIRA! :)). >>>>>> >>>>>> So you may ask why we do have a “Developer” Category in the RN app. >>>>> These were not for pure developers but for XWiki users who are more >>>>> advanced and can write scripts in wiki pages. And when it’s the case > we >>>>> **must** add examples, otherwise, it’s completely useless. >>>>>> >>>>>> For example this morning I saw this RN added: >>>>>> >>>>> > https://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/ReleaseNotes/Data/XWiki/11.0/Change004/ >>>>>> >>>>>> This is typically something that has very little value to me: >>>>>> * It’s for pure developers (java devs) >>>>>> * It’s not understandable by anyone except the person who coded it or >>>>> participated to the dev mailing list discussion about it >>>>>> * It doesn’t say more than what’s in the JIRA issue so what’s the > point? >>>>>> * There are no examples at all in it! >>>>>> * Real developers can simply look at the reference documentation or > can >>>>> read the JIRAs. We always link the JIRA issues in the RN anyway (it > was for >>>>> this reason that we’re listing them). >>>>>> * It takes time to write RN items and thus it needs to have high > value >>>>>> >>>>>> Proposal >>>>>> ======== >>>>>> >>>>>> * Go back to the original idea and only list developer RN items when >>>>> they are for scripting users and not APIs. For example, document some > new >>>>> script service or some additions to existing script services. Of > course >>>>> Groovy would allow you to call any API so being able to use it from > Groovy >>>>> is not a good criteria. I’d say that the criteria should be whether > the >>>>> Release Note Change is useful for Velocity users. >>>>>> * Rename “Developers” into “Scripters” or or “Advanced Users” (any >>>>> better name?) >>>>>> * Always put an example when writing a “developer” change and take > the >>>>> time to explain properly what it’s about. >>>>>> >>>>>> WDYT? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> -Vincent >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> > >