3 Oct
2014
3 Oct
'14
6:40 p.m.
2014-10-03 15:57 GMT+02:00 Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <valicac(a)gmail.com>om>:
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
move
'Add
the
the
minimalistic
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocationIter…
1000x
page
the
I
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On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 4:50 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
<vincent(a)massol.net>
wrote:
so?
So yes, is not something existing, it was more of a premise I based my
design when I did iterations (in order to assure consistency).
For example, one of the iterations looks like this
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation…
(where even Edit and More actions are replaced with only icons) ... but
again these are design ideas, iterations and proposals.
I really like this one, as it's consistent with your premise and not "half
consistent".
I understand Vincent's point, but my "issue" is that the "+" in
top menu
doesn't look like an icon, it looks like a '+' character, and could use
same font as the other text on left side (except that it's a bit thicker).
So it seems half-way between an entity (as it's almost text) and a well
known action (as it's an icon). This is not the case for the icons on the
right side of top bar, as they clearly don't look like any character you
usually produce with a keyboard (bell, message, magnifying glass).
I don't really like the cog icon (and I never did), because if you don't
know it yet you have no idea what to expect inside (I would except some
administration or configuration stuff, which is not the case).
Of course there are habits, but as a first time user, if I tell you "please
administrate rights of this page", would you click on the pencil or on the
cog ? ;-)
On 3 Oct 2014 at 15:33:53, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (valicac(a)gmail.com
(mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
> As I said in the proposal "Well known actions are
represented with
icons,
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 3:28 PM,
vincent(a)massol.net
wrote:
> On 3 Oct 2014
at 13:05:08, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (
valicac(a)gmail.com
> (mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
> > Hi,
> > > Some notes about the
proposal:
> > > - I like the 'Add'
represented as '+' and after the Wiki/Space/Page
> > breadcrumb, because is somehow consistent with the '+' (More
> applications)
> > from the AppBar. Provides a way to create elements of a particular
type
> in
> > the near vicinity where the elements are displayed.
> What I don’t like is that it’s the
only menu entry at the top that
> wouldn’t have any text (just an icon) and it’s one of the most
important
> > one.
> while we
provide text only for user generated entities
(Wiki/Space/Page/User names)”.
But I don’t see this anywhere in the current UI: we have “Edit”, “Add”,
“More Actions..” which are all well known actions...
Is that a new rule you’d like to have?
If it is, it makes more sense to me to move all to this new rule at once
instead of doing an exception just for the Add button, don’t you think 
> > I’d use a color (the green one looks fine to me to make it visible)
for
> now
for 6.2.2 and maybe do some usability testing on various
variations as
> you did for the other usability tests, in
order to gather more
feedback and
have more
time to gather it.
I've also iterated on the 'green color' idea, see
> but I prefer the initial proposal (with
white) since I think the
contrast
is better
and also we keep consistency between elements.
I don’t think there needs to be a consistency because we want to draw
attention to it which is not the case for the other elements. That said,
using a “+” without text would be a consistency issue since it’s the only
one like this...
Anyway, I don’t want to fight too long on this because I’d like us to forward so if others are ok to use just a “+”
with the same color as the
other menus, then I’m fine (even though I don’t like it). BTW I hope it’s
not too small and can be clicked on a mobile ;)
Actually I would need to make a proposal also for the mobile version, since
there things are a bit messed up (because of the Search change) and we
might need to provide a custom order.
Thanks,
Caty
Thanks
-Vincent
and
> > - Although I know there will be some
initial findability issues for
the
> > > 'Add', after the user founds it I don't think it will have
problems
> > finding
> > > it again. We can improve the findability by finally providing an
> > > Introductory Wizard. Except for the initial moments when you learn
> > XWiki, I
> > > don't see the point of having a very distinctive style for
'Add' I
> > > would prefer to go on the consistent/integrated with the other
navbar
> >
elements direction.
> >
> > - The same comment about a distinctive style for 'Search'. IMO
'Search'
> > > should look integrated in the .navbar.
> > >
> > > - I dislike the idea of having multiple 'Add' buttons. Also the
-
we
> > Comment to page' and 'Add -
Attachment to page' are part of the
Colibri
> > skin, but IMO were 'close to
never' used. I remember a bug on them
that
> > made them unusable and we discovered it
after some years or
something.
> > Also
> > > I don't think we should provide buttons for all the functionality
can
"Add"
element,
> > think of, but leave them be created
from their context. I prefer
having
> > buttons just for the generic and base
concepts of XWiki (in the try
of
> > keeping it minimal and simple).
> >
> > - We are kind of going a bit too crazy about brainstorming and
ideas.
The
> > only conclusion we need to reach is if
for Flamingo we move the
button
> back
> > top.
>
> Yes I agree completely with this. We shouldn’t mix everything right
now or
> we won’t progress.
>
> The only other thing that we may want to have in 6.2.2 too is the
removal
> of the 2 part-buttons at the top and the
introduction of the “Go to…”
for
navigation.
I've created http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11166 and
http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11167
Thanks,
Caty
>
> The rest is fine to discuss and tune for 6.3+ IMO.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> > Thanks,
> > Caty
>
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Eduard Moraru wrote:
> >
> > > Big +1 for Var3 for the simple fact that it looks like a
> "holistic"/global
> > > approach that does not only focus on a specific element, like the > > > button and currently falls into
the mistake of making it a bright
shiny
> > > > beacon to misguided users, resulting in something that is overall
> > > > disturbing to the eye. Same can be said about the "Search"
> > since
> > > > it now reduces the heavy contrast of both the search input
(bright
> > white on
> > > > dark background) and its search button (bright colored blue on
dark
> >
> background).
> > >
> > > About the Search button (re: Jeremie): Because it is the first
element
> > in
> > > > its group, it will show to the left and no other elements will be
> > > > disturbed, so the transition will be nice for users. Basically >
expand
> > > search button (the magnifying glass) becomes a button once you
expand
> it,
> > > so there should be no flicker or anything like that.
> > > - As an alternative, if we really are against
> > > transitions/animations/expandable elements/etc, we could just
present
> the
> > > search as directly expanded (classic way), but still keep the
darker
> input
> > > color to avoid the "kitch" effect described above due to high
> contrasts.
> > >
> > > About the + (Add) button, IMO, the only thing we could do more if
we
> > really
> > > > want to emphasize it in an *elegant* fashion, would be to make +
> > sign
> > > > itself green, or with some green border, whatever. Whatever we
do,
we
> > > > should try to consider Caty's opinion on style here since she
might
> have
a
> > > better eye and this proposal here seems to be towards that
direction.
> > >
> > > IMO, one very interesting thing to note is the extended (3.4)
version
> and
> > > long term view that we also need to take into account and, at
least
to
> me,
> > > that looks really slick.
> > >
> > > I think we should stick to the original intent of this Flamingo
skin,
> > with
> > > > the addition of Bootstrap's style, and keep it slick, and
too
> to
> > > the point. The users should focus more on the content instead of
the
> UI,
> > > don`t u think?
> > >
> > > ------
> > > On a related note, If you ask me, I would be in favor of also
removing
> > the
> > > > labels from "Edit" and "More actions" and just go
with the *all > > > > obvious* "pencil"
and "cog" icons. GMail uses the "cog" icon
with 0
> > > > problems and I kind of trust
that their UX army did their
research
> and
> > > > > impact studies for that :)
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, on matters of "consistency" we would achieve the
following
> > > statement:
> > > > > "Actions have only icons, while entities have an icon and a
label
> that
> > > > > displays the entity's name".
> > > > > - Actions: add, edit, search, more actions, etc.
> > > > > - Entities (with dropdown menu for actions on the entries):
wiki,
> > > space,
> > > > > page, user.
> > > > > ------
> > > > >
> > > > > Let's keep this skin clean and a pleasure to work on/with,
WDYT?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Eduard
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> > > > > valicac(a)gmail.com
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've created this proposal
> > > > > >
> > >
> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation
> > > > > > Please read it and give your opinion on it. The proposal
is
> based on
> > > > > > discussed solution, but improves a bit the styling.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you are curious how I reached some of the
proposal's
> conclusions,
> > > you
> > > > > > can see it's iterations
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Caty
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 7:59 PM, Guillaume Lerouge
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > actually one thing we could try is this:
> > > > >
> > > > > - *Keep the "Add" button where it is and use it for
page-related
> > > > > actions:*
> > > > > - "Add child page"
> > > > > - "Add comment" (as suggested by Denis)
> > > > > - "Add attachment" (as suggested by Denis)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > - *Add a "Create" button in the top bar, with 2/3
options:*
> > > > > - "Create page" (TBD)
> > > > > - "Create space"
> > > > > - "Create wiki"
> > > > > - In this case, after clicking "Create" the user would
be
presented
> > > > with
> > > > > a page / modal box listing existing instances as well as
available
> > > > > templates
> > > > >
> > > > > I think this would solve both my issues (having less-frequent
> actions
> > > in
> > > > > the same location as a more-frequent one, not being in the
right
> place
> > > on
> > > > > the page) and GuillaumeD's wife issue (the "Add"
button is
easy to
> find
> > > > > where it is right now, why move it?).
> > > > >
> > > > > WDYT?
> > > > >
> > > > > Guillaume
> > > > > ᐧ
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM, vincent(a)massol.net > >
>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru (
enygma2002(a)gmail.com
> > > (mailto:
> > > > > > enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On that note:
> > > > > > > The funny/sad thing to realise is that we are basing
all
this
> > > > > discussion
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > the fact that some users did not find the
"Add" button
*only
> the
> > > > first
> > > > > > > time* they tried to do something. The realization is
that
this
> is
> > > one
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > those things (idioms[1][2]) that you learn once and
know
how to
> > > > > easily
> > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > the next 1000x times (like riding a bike).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The real problem appears when you are in those
"next >
time"
> > > and
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > find it cumbersome to use (like riding a bike with no
saddle,
> or
> > > with
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > saddle on backwards :) ). So in both cases (top or
middle
of
> > the
> > > > > page)
> > > > > > > once
> > > > > > > > you find it once, you will find it again, however
in the
> > middle of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > page
> > > > > > > > it conflicts too often with the Edit button and
other > > related
> > > > > > > actions,
> > > > > > > > that it becomes cumbersome to use.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Indeed that’s something I had in mind too. If you just
ask
to
> > add a
> > > > > page
> > > > > > > and that’s all then you’re not doing a full test.
You’d
need
to
gives
> ask
> > > the
> > > > > > user to:
> > > > > > - add a page
> > > > > > - delete a page
> > > > > > - move a page
> > > > > > - create a space
> > > > > > - etc
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And then only you can draw some conclusion IMO.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > Eduard
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----------
> > > > > > > [1] http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
> > > > > > > [2]
> > > > > >
> > >
https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume Louis-Marie
Delhumeau (
> > > > > > > >
gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com))
wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have done the "test-on-my-wife"
thing :)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > She finds it more intuitive to add a page
from the
current
> > > > page,
> > > > > so
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > current location, instead of the
"black bar that the
only
> > > > > > impression of
> > > > > > > > > not beeing a part of that page" (that
she did not
manage to
> > > > find
> > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > > herself).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I then explained that the buttons
inside the page >
concern
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > actions
> > > > > > > > > that you can do on that page, meanwhile
adding a new
page
> > > should
> > > > be
> > > > > > put
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > an other location. She did not like this
logic :)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So with this logic we should remove the top bar
completely
> > and
> > > > move
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > actions inside the page, i.e. have only 1
menu inside > > page.
> > > > > > > Because if
> > > > > > > > > she couldn’t find the Add button there she
also
wouldn’t
be
> > able
> > > > to
> > > > > > > find
> > > > > > > > > all wiki-related actions, space-related
actions and
more
> >
> > importantly
> > > > > > > > **page-related** actions like copy page, rename
page or
> delete
> > > > page…
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Also would be fun to ask your wife to try using
Confluence
> > and
> > > > see
> > > > > if
> > > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > > fails to create a page there too.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Users' logic and developer's
logic are not the same. > like
the
> > > > > > current
> > > > > > > > > location too, except that we should propose
"create
page"
> > > before
> > > > > > "create
> > > > > > > > > wiki".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I really would like to have some feedback of
normal
users,
> with
> > > > > the 2
> > > > > > > > > proposals. We, as developers, are not good
at making
things
> > > that
> > > > > look
> > > > > > > > > simple for other people, so we should not
take this
> decision
> > > > alone.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Guillaume Delhumeau
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