17 Sep
2015
17 Sep
'15
4:32 p.m.
On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
Hi Edy,
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Guillaume,
You propose a single top level/root document, but no top level space. How
does that fit into XWiki`s model? What is the reference of this root
document? "xwiki:.WebHome", "xwiki:.", ? How do we interact with it?
Also,
is a random xwiki:Space.Page document supposed to be a child of this
implicit root document?
Indeed, I'm probably (widely!) underestimating the amount of work needed to
make something like this work and the impact. The reference of the "top
homepage" would indeed have to be something like "xwiki:." (or even just
"[[]]"!).
What we currently do is that we have the Main
Wiki > Current Wiki > Top
Level Document > Child Document > Child Document hierarchy. The link to
"Current Wiki" goes to whatever the homepage is configured to be. This does
not mean that the linked document is the parent of "Top Level Document".
The parent of "Top Level Document" is the wiki "Current Wiki". The
homepage
of that wiki may be different, but that does not make the homepage document
a parent of the "Top Level Document".
Actually you have 2 hierarchies, not one:
- Main Wiki > Top Level Document in the main wiki > Child Document >
Child Document hierarchy
- Main Wiki > Sub-Wiki > Top Level Document > Child Document > Child
Document hierarchy
Which means that there are 2 different types of entities that can live
under "Main Wiki" => it feels to me like a bit of a consistency issue, but
we can't really avoid it at the moment.
If you consider the homepage of the wiki as the
parent of top level
documents, you will end up creating pages in the "Blog" space, as Marius
exemplified above, because the wiki admin wanted the "Blog" spaces (Nested
Document) to be the homepage for his personalized wiki.
No, since my point of view on this is that we shouldn't even allow the home
page to be changed to begin with :-)
We want to allow more configuration in contrast
to requiring more
code/content change (which would be the alternative when enforcing a fixed
homepage document).
Why is that? Why not keep the homepage where it is and
let the user put a
{{display}} macro there if needed? I don't really understand the rationale
behind this. Changing the content of the homepage it very easy (one click
on the "Edit" button)...
The upgrade could become a bit more complex if you modify the default home page.
I`m trying to focus more on the actual impact of this, since IMO it's
better to make a slight effort in understanding
why something happens and,
once understood, you either agree with it or live with it, but in both
cases you don`t suffer from the side effect caused by a possible solution
that would be easier to understand but had an unwanted effect.
Actually the current behavior suits me well overall. The only gripe I have
is with the special treatment when creating pages from the home page. You
can see even see it: when you click on the create button from the home,
first the parent displays "Home" then you have a quick flickering as it
gets hidden in Javascript...
Now I understand that it's better to start with less changes and add things
only as needed. We'll see how things goes.
I`m curious how this turns out in practice.
So am I! I guess we'll see when additional user feedback start coming in :-)
Best,
Guillaume
Thanks,
Eduard
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 5:30 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
is
by
can
be
the
the
more
expected
result
keep
http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Features/DocumentLifecycle#HByusin…
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs Hi Marius,
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea <
mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
> Hi Guillaume,
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:26 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Caty,
> >
> > thanks for your message. Please see my answers below.
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> > valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> The current behavior was reached after many discussions.
> >>
> >
> > I understand. However, I only got the time to actually try and test
XE
7.2
> last week. And based on what Edy said, I'm not the only one who was
> surprised by the current behavior :-)
>
>
>> Currently the concept of main wiki is expressed as the 'home' icon,
but
> is
> >> not tied to a particular space. This is something we preserved and >>
flexible enough for users with custom content to change the location
of
the
>> homepage or assigned a different space, for a different subwiki.
>>
>
> I understand this. I'm not questioning the current behavior, but the
> underlying assumption. Given the new paradigm we're implementing with
> nested spaces, why would an user want to change the location of the
> homepage? To me, it's like saying that you would want the top level
folder
> on your computer to be something else than the hard drive itself. I
don't
> understand why that would be useful.
The hard-drive is the wiki not the Main space. Or, if you want to be
precise, the entire farm is the hard-drive, a wiki is a partition on
that hard-drive and a space is a folder on a partition. The Main space
is just one of the top level "folders". Blog, XWiki, Sandbox are also
at the top level. And you can create new top level "folders". When you
access XWiki you get redirected to the Main space by default but
someone may want the Blog space to be opened by default.
>
> Do you have specific use cases in mind that I might be missing (other
than
> "this feature existed before")?
>
> Also we needed to showcase differently spaces that are top level, vs.
pages
>> inside the Main space, while having the limited number of exceptions
>> created for the breadcrumb.
>>
>
> I think there are 2 separate problems here:
>
> 1. Where should we put all of the pages that are currently in the
"Main"
> space if we decide that not all of them deserve to be top-level
pages
Pages from the Main space are not top level. Main is top level, and
Main is on the same level with Blog, Sandbox and XWiki. Check the
document index tree. I have the feeling you're making a confusion.
I am making an intentional confusion because I think that this is how
end-users are going to perceive it too. I think I understand well enough
XWiki's current model, the reason why there's a Main space to begin with
and the fact that it's just a space among others, not a top-level space itself.
However, we cannot expect that level of implicit knowledge from a fresh
new
user. As a new user, I'm on "Main",
which to me is the top level page, I
create a new page, and it's created next to Main, not under it. That
doesn't fit with my mental model of how nested pages should work. That
new
page should be under Main, not at the same level.
Do you see what I mean?
As pointed out by Caty, I also understand that there are technical
limitations that explain this behavior and that it's tough to overcome
them
in the short amount of time that we have as part
of the 7.2 release
timeframe. We'll most likely have to keep the current behavior and live
with it for a while. But I know for sure that it is going to create
confusion for some end users, the same way it did for me :-)
Thanks,
Guillaume
management
2. Making it possible to have top-level pages
in a coherent manner
>
> For 1., pages in the Main space could stay where they are for now.
"Main"
> > would be the legacy space where we put useful tools for the of
the
> your wiki.
>
> I'm discussing the answer for 2. below.
>
> Also I wouldn't like that all the URL contain the word 'Main' Imagine
that
>> besides the 'xwiki/bin/view/' we would need to also contain the
homepage
>> space?
>
>
> My very point is that the home page wouldn't (shouldn't?) need to be
> "Main". It would be "". IE, there would be nothing in the URL to
reflect
> it. It would be a representation of the wiki
itself.
>
> I understand that technically this is not feasible right now and that
we
> *need* to have a specific page be the home
page, which is the role
played
> by Main.WebHome. What I'm saying is that
with the new system, I'd
rather
> > have *.../xwiki/bin/view/WebHome => **.../xwiki/bin/view/ *would be >
whole wiki. That level would be the top level space (which is exactly
what
> has been implemented by the way). Do you see what I mean?
>
>
>> Although we have a convention that a certain page is displayed as
>> homepage, this is not needed to be in the URL. 'home' icon is a link
for
> >> the homepage, not a physical location. Currently the 'Main' space
> >> contain pages useful for the
display of the homepage, but is an
> 'optional'
> >> space.
> >>
> >
> > What I' suggesting is precisely that the home page be its own
document
at
things
> the very top of the hierarchy, ABOVE what is
currently known as
> Main.WebHome. This is why while the user is on this page, she should
see
> > only the home icon.
> >
> > Is this making what I mean clearer? I'm just suggesting we push one
> step further in the direction that has already been established.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Guillaume
>
> Thanks,
>> Caty
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Guillaume Lerouge <
guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Edy,
>> >
>> > thanks for the explanation. Please see my feedback below.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Eduard Moraru <
enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hi,
>> > >
>> > > Yes, "this is not a bug, it's a feature!" :) I had
documented it
in
> a
> >> > small
> >> > > paragraph [1] (see the note) but did not feel it was worthy to
>>
> mentioned
>> > > in the release notes. Please feel free to rephrase if needed.
>> > >
>> > > It's not specifically about "Main", but about the
current wiki's
>> homepage
>> > > (and "Main.WebHome" is the default homepage that can be
changed
from
> >> > > administration).
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > Does this feature (changing the home page) still makes sense in >>
context
>> > of nested spaces? What is the point to define the home page as
>> ".../A/B/C"
>> > when based on the new system, "C" is a sub-sub page?
>> >
>> > To me, with nested spaces the home page is always the same and
cannot
> be
> >> > changed. You may want to add a redirect, but this doesn't change
fact
>> > that the top page is the same.
>> >
>> >
>> > > The effort is to try to avoid the situation where a regular user
lands
>> on
>> > > the homepage of the wiki (just accessed the wiki or maybe he
clicked
> >> the
> >> > > logo) and wants to create a document. He enters the title and
> presses
> >> > > "create". Obviously his intention was to create a page,
and, > often
> >> > > than not (IMO at least), his actual intention was to create a
top
> level
> >> > > document and not a child document of the wiki's current
homepage.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > I agree with this. However, in that case, shouldn't the home page
be
> >> simply
> >> > *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/* instead of
> >> > *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/* ?
> >> >
> >> > Using short URLs, you could even have the home page under
*https://
> >> > <server>/
> >> > *and then subpages at *https://<server>/A, **https://
<server>/A/B*
and
>> so
>> > on. This would be in line with what most CMS do and it would fix
your
> >> > issue: any page created from the home is a sub-page at the > >> level.
> >> >
> >> > Image the homepage gets changed to
"Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage".
> >> > > Without this
"trick", a regular user would end up, by mistake
IMO
(and
>> by
>> > > using the "next-next-next" mindset), creating the document
>> > > "Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage.NewDocument".
>> > >
>> >
>> > As I said above, I actually think we should remove this feature in
the
> >> > context of nested spaces.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > Even if the homepage remains the default one, I see no logical
> reason
> >> in
> >> > > spamming all the new documents with the "Main" prefix,
the being
>> > an
>> > > artificially deeper hierarchy and longer URL.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Agreed. As mentioned above, ideally we'd remove it.
>> >
>> >
>> > > If a user really intended to create a document as a child of the
>> homepage
>> > > (rare usecase IMO), he has all the tools in the UI to simply do
so.
>> > >
>> > > I agree that it's a minor consistency dent, but IMO the benefit
>> justifies
>> > > it.
>> > >
>> >
>> > I don't quite agree that it's minor. One of the implied goals of
nested
>> > spaces is to be able to have consistent URL naming (I know exactly
where
>> > page *https://<server>/A/B/C *is). Having a special case for Main
breaks
>> > this.
>> >
>> > Similarly, when on the home page on the main wiki, I don't
understand
> why
> >> > the breadcrumb shows both the "home" icon and
"Home" text. Why > both
> >> > when the icon would be enough?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >
> >> > Guillaume
> >> >
> >> > WDYT? (interested in more opinions on this since I've already had
2
>>
> > eyebrows raised on this topic :) )
>> > >
>> > > Thanks,
>> > > Eduard
>> > >
>> > > ---------
>> > > [1]
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
> >> > >
> >> > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
> >> guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Hi Devs,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I started trying out XE 7.2 (SNAPSHOT from around 12:30
today)
> and I
> >> > was
> >> > > > very impressed, the changes look quite good!
> >> > > >
> >> > > > While playing with it, I had a question about how the
"Main"
> space is
> >> > > > handled. Here's what I did: from
.../xwiki/bin/view/Main/, I
> clicked
> >> > the
> >> > > > "create" button and created a sub page, then a
sub-sub page.
> Here's
> >> > what
> >> > > I
> >> > > > got:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > - .../xwiki/bin/view/SubPage/SubSubPage
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Although I was expecting this:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > - .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/SubPage/SubSubPage
> >> > > >
> >> > > > So I was wondering whether this was the expected behavior,
and
> >> whether
> >> > it
> >> > > > had been discussed before?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Congrats & Thanks,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Guillaume