24 Oct
2014
24 Oct
'14
8:44 p.m.
Hi Jeremie,
Thanks for your proposal (and for highjacking this thread in doing so :) ).
I will add an entry on the proposals page for it and I suggest we move
discussions not related to the Simplified Home Page proposals on the
general thread:
http://xwiki.markmail.org/thread/a3umh6ihsdpxrhws
Thanks,
Eduard
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 11:21 PM, Jeremie BOUSQUET <
jeremie.bousquet(a)gmail.com> wrote:
To clarify my point of view, I would say that:
- UC6 is not only a use-case, it's a proposal in itself
"Flavors need to be able to easily set/replace the homepage"
I propose that flavors, and wiki creation wizard, should be the (first) way
to set and replace the homepage. The second one being to customize it using
the standard and natural features of the wiki (edit
wiki/inline/wysiwyg/whatever), which is already feature-rich.
If I'm not wrong it would cover UC2, UC3, UC4 and (obviously) UC6.
- I would say that UC1 and UC5 should be covered by a dedicated Help
application (with a button in the applications panel)
My argument is that using the home page content to cover those use-cases,
would satisfy only the needs of Alice, and only just after she created her
wiki.
She wouldn't need help on xwiki concepts or navigation in each and every
sub-wikis.
Once she would master the wiki concepts, she would replace the home page
with what she wants, and would have to choose between leaving the default
helping content in it (instead of using all the room available to put her
own content), or removing it - and so remove it for the B-Boys too.
By the way, last wizard step may even present a question to user like "do
you want to see some explainations about xwiki concepts ?" that would bring
user to the help instead of directing him to the home page.
There were discussions about bootstrap being "mobile first", I've always
seen xwiki specifically "wiki first" ;-) , so in a sense I believe
"edit"
should remain an essential feature - it should be easy in any case and
whatever is in a page.
2014-10-21 21:04 GMT+02:00 Jeremie BOUSQUET <jeremie.bousquet(a)gmail.com>om>:
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Anca,
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 12:38 PM, Anca Luca <lucaa(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
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Basically if I got your point, you're saying
that the home page should
depend on the kind or flavor of wiki wanted by Alice, but though we have
some ideas about it, we should let her choose by herself.
It really looks like a last step of a wiki creation with flavor wizard,
don't you think ? :) and if you want to switch home page concept
completely
later, you can just run the wizard again.
That way it's integrated with a concept of flavor that you want to add in
xwiki, and a concept of wizard that's already there, it's not a brand new
concept adding buttons in your everyday ui. If objective of Alice is to
customize it to her needs, she can select "empty home page" during
wizard.
But it's not something that she wants to do
frequently (switching home
page). Like a space template, but for the home page of the home space of
a
wiki.
Also I'm not sure if a dashboard is really limited to be an overview of a
wiki.
You can put any widget in it, and any macro can be a widget.
To me it's more a highly flexible and extensible feature that is
currently
highly underused. I think it could be a great
tool for home pages of
application based flavors.
Le 21 oct. 2014 19:53, "Anca Luca" <lucaa(a)xwiki.com> a écrit :
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Anca Luca <lucaa(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 7:47 PM, Anca Luca <lucaa(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Edi,
> >>
> >> I sort of understand from this mail that you think I am
"defending"
the
> >> dashboard on the homepage. I cannot
figure out how you got that idea.
> >>
> >> The only thing I was saying in the previous mail is that 2 dashboards
> by
> >> default don't make sense for me, because dashboard means to me
> overview and
> >> I think we should rather make it easy for users to turn their
homepage
> in a
> >> proper overview rather than have 2 overviews. Because if we have the
> >> dashboard separately (as today), then the Alices will create on the
> >> homepage their own overview of the wiki, and then Bob, Billy and
Bogdan
> >> will have 2 of them. This is not
necessarily bad, to be able to have
> >> multiple dashboards, because you can imagine multiple facets of the
> same
> >> wiki, but I think for a default wiki user is confusing (seeing the
> homepage
> >> which is an overview and having a link on the right that takes to an
> >> overview).
> >>
> >> When I said that the 2 personas need to be analyzed together it was
> more
> >> about what kind of customization we promote to the admin (Alice).
E.g.
> >> explaining as a generic thing that
they could include another page
and
> they
> >> could customize could be too generic for the need of Alice, which is
to
> create a proper welcome page for the B-boys. If we
knew / decided on
what
> is a proper welcome page for the B-boys, then
we could make a choice
about
>> how to allow Alice to take ownership, encourage editing, etc AND, in
>> addition, go towards the "users oriented homepage".
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com > >>>
> >>> > Hello Edi,
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Eduard Moraru <
> enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > > On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 7:26 PM, Anca Luca
<lucaa(a)xwiki.com>
> wrote:
> >>> > >
> >>> > > > Hello all,
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > so on the topic of "removing the dashboard from the
homepage"
> and
> >>> if
> >>> > > people
> >>> > > > need it they can access it independently.
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > In my opinion, this dashboard does not really exist or
have
any
> >>> value
> >>> > > > beyond the homepage. I mean, what does it mean, what is
it
used
> for
> >>> > > besides
> >>> > > > the homepage? What would the dashboard be used other
than
> having an
> >>> > > > overview of the wiki? And if people remove it from the
homepage
> of
> >>> the
> >>> > > > wiki, what would they put instead? An overview of the
wiki?
> Isn't
> >>> that
> >>> > > what
> >>> > > > dashboard means?
> >>> > > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > The idea of this proposal was that the homepage should be
> customized
> >>> by
> >>> > the
> >>> > > admin. It should be a homepage. Instead of a Dashboard, it
should
> >>> contain
> >>> > > information about the purpose of the wiki, information for
> newcomers,
> >>> > > information about the organization, some video, etc. All of
this
> we
> >>> plan
> >>> > to
> >>> > > encourage the admins to customize so that they "take
ownership"
of
> >>> their
> >>> > > wiki instead of seeing it as just a tool with default
settings.
> Some
> >>> may
> >>> > > see disadvantages to this, and prefer default tools, but
others
> may
> >>> see
> >>> > the
> >>> > > value of getting the user/admin involved.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > The Dashboard should be seen as a place to go to in order to
see
> >>> what is
> >>> > > going on. Dashboards in the wild also tend to be customizable
per
> >>> users
> >>> > (we
> >>> > > technically support that as well, but it could be improved,
i.e.
> >>> have a
> >>> > > default user dashboard in the 'My dashboard' section
in the user
> >>> profile
> >>> > > instead of the empty space that is right now in view mode,
> promote it
> >>> > more,
> >>> > > etc.). They also tend to be used by more technical people
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Once the admin is involved and now aware of how to do things,
he
> can
> >>> > easily
> >>> > > include the dashboard on the homepage if that is his view on
the
> >>> purpose
> >>> > of
> >>> > > his wiki. We can even propose it in the default content of
the
> >>> homepage.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > What you choose depends a lot on the usecase you have for
your
> wiki,
> >>> i.e.
> >>> > > what flavor you`re using. For example, a dashboard is good
for
> >>> > > intranet/groupware but not that good for public websites. We
are
> >>> > > considering here what we want the default experience to
> >>> offer/encourage
> >>> > and
> >>> > > maybe we should not really focus on/be influenced by any of
the
> >>> > flavors/use
> >>> > > cases we are having in mind.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > By this logic, I would find it strange to have a homepage
and
a
> >>> > > dashboard,
> >>> > > > as 2 separate entities, because for me they would mean
the
same
> >>> thing.
> >>> > So
> >>> > > > multiple possibilities:
> >>> > > > 1/ our _default_ dashboard displayed on the homepage
(included
> or
> >>> not,
> >>> > I
> >>> > > > don't care) is not good enough because it does not
offer a
good
> >>> > _default_
> >>> > > > overview of the wiki. We need to change the dashboard.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > This is not part of the use cases [1] extracted from previous
> >>> > discussions.
> >>> > > Are you proposing that we add "offer a good overview of
the
wiki"
> as
> >>> a
> >>> > new
> >>> > > use case/goal or is this just a rewording of UC5 (navigation)
?
> >>> > >
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> That would be proposal 1 here:
> >>
>
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal1Keepcurren…
> >> rather than a UC.
> >>
> >> Since I don't know anymore what this mail is about and I am sure
we're
> >> gonna get lost in details, here is
my proposal (corresponsad to by
> option
> >> 2) expressed in the initial mail):
> >>
> >
> > (corresponds to my option 2 expressed in my initial mail on this
thread)
> > -- just to make all crystal clear
> >
> >
> >> * By default the home page is a regular wiki page, with some text in
> it,
> >> that demonstrates all the features of the wiki, something like a
> Sandbox
> >> webhome. This should cover a couple of the usecases for Alice admin
> that
> >> needs to understand how wiki works. Also, she will be able to edit
the
> >> homepage like a regular page.
> >> * Next to the edit button of this page, we add a button with an
> >> UIExtension which will say: "Turn this homepage in a dashboard with
> >> gadgets". Upon click, we open a wizard where we explain a bit
what's
> gonna
> >> happen **and also that history rollback can always be used to fix
> whatever
> >> we might have done**. The wizard will put a dashboard macro on the
> >> homepage, force the default edit mode to be inline, add a couple of
> gadgets
> >> already (some of the most used, etc) and will take the admin back to
> edit
> >> mode of this page, which she will customize as she pleases.
> >> * There is no link to a dashboard in the menu, the dashboard on
> >> Dashboard.WebHome does not exist anymore. The homepage will be a
> dashboard
> >> itself (and not include a dashboard).
> >>
> >
> This homepage will be in one language only (we know how well
translations
> for the homepage turned out, the last time we
tried it) and it's
language
> will be handled by the distribution wizard
which will ask a question
> before
> doing anything. This language will be used for the DW itself + the
> homepage
> version to be installed.
>
> Anca
>
>
> >
> >> Ideally, the way I see this used is that when the admin is done
> >> experimenting and has full ownership, they will click this dashboard
> button
> >> and create a dashboard for the wiki to give to B users. Why dashboard
> and
> >> not any other thing, like a page include or free text? Mainly
because
I
> >> think the dashboard is an
interesting usecase for the users (B), with
> the
> >> proper gadgets available, of course, and directing the Admin A
towards
> that
> >> usecase could help noob admins that don't want to understand all the
> >> concepts of the wiki to have a nice homepage.
> >>
> >> I just thought of another quite frequent usecase for the homepage for
> the
> >> users B, which is the homepage of an application (when the wiki is
> fully
> >> dedicated to an application). I think this should be a preference
> setting
> >> for admin A, not an include. As in, the Main.WebHome will not include
> the
> >> other application homepage, but the wiki will actually land on a
> different
> >> page when accessed. This configuration could be done in the
> preferences of
> >> the wiki. The case of including pages in the home could be limiting
> for the
> >> panels or space specific skin (if the application has specific
panels,
> like
> >> the blog, then the same panels would need to be configured on the
whole
> >> wiki in order for the usecase
"land directly in application blog" to
be
> >> fulfilled). This would mean
> >>
>
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposal4Setthispag…
> >> . Note that this proposal does not
collide with the proposal I made
> above
> >> about the dashboard.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Anca
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> >
> >>> > I need to think a little more about this in order to make a
complete
> >>> > answer, but I read the list
of usecases and I remarked one thing:
> >>> >
> >>> > In all UC1 to UC5, I think your "user" is more of an
"admin" than
a
> >>> user. I
> >>> > see the following flow in working with a wiki:
> >>> > Alice downloads the wiki and plays around with it locally, tests
it
> and
> >>> > checks its features. Then, she is convinced by the tool and
decides
> to
> >>> move
> >>> > this to the next level and install the wiki on a server (or get it
> >>> > installed) so that she can collaborate with her colleagues, Bob,
> Billy
> >>> and
> >>> > Bogdan. To me Alice is not a user, she's more like a wiki
admin.
> Then
> >>> when
> >>> > the wiki is installed on the server, the three B boys are the
users
> and
> >>> > Alice might become a user as well, or might always stay a little
> more
> >>> > admin. When she moves from her private tests to a public tool,
Alice
> >>> > prepares the homepage of
the wiki so that it matches the purpose
of
> the
> >>> > wiki and the B boys. Alice will need to "UC3: The user needs
to be
> >>> able to
> >>> > easily replace the home page with his content" but the B boys
won't.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> I think you`ve perfectly described what we want to do with the
> homepage
> >>> (*in this proposal*), and yes, the user we are interested in in this
> case
> >>> is the admin (Alice) that we want to encourage to take ownership of
> the
> >>> wiki she is going to present to the wiki's users (B-boys) instead
of
> >>> offering them a vanilla "Untitled Document" experience :)
> >>>
> >>> I think that the admin (Alice) homepage needs cannot be analysed
> >>> > independently from the user (Bob, Billy and Bogdan) homepage
needs,
> >>> because
> >>> > we risk to provide the admin with customization tools that they
will
> >>> never
> >>> > need because the user will never need such a customization.
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> In a way, that is exactly what the Dashboard is doing: it is *a
tool*
> >>> that
> >>> the user is presented with by default and which he might not need
(and
> >>> has
> >>> no idea how to get rid of).
> >>>
> >>> This proposal was about promoting more the wiki itself (not
> customization
> >>> tools) and empowering the user that will deploy it so that he can
> provide
> >>> an optimum experience to his users. We can`t really do much for the
> >>> variety
> >>> of use cases and users out there that might be using XWiki, but the
> admin
> >>> can (*if he is able to*, and this is what this proposal is pushing
> for).
> >>>
> >>> The Dashboard is nice, no argument there, but it is just *a tool*,
> among
> >>> others, that the admin could choose to use or not.
> >>>
> >>> Still, this is currently just one proposal amongst others [1].
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Eduard
> >>>
> >>> ----------
> >>> [1]
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageProposals
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> >
> >>> > Thanks,
> >>> > Anca
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Thanks,
> >>> > > Eduard
> >>> > >
> >>> > > [1]
> http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/HomepageUseCases
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > > In this case, we
> >>> > > > improve the way we modify this dashboard, to allow people
to
> >>> change the
> >>> > > > "default" overview which guides the user
through the wiki with
> an
> >>> > > overview
> >>> > > > that is more adapted to the user's usecase.
> >>> > > > 2/ we change the homepage and we remove the dashboard
from it
> and
> >>> > > implement
> >>> > > > an overview of the wiki differently (which would still be
a
> >>> dashboard
> >>> > at
> >>> > > > the conceptual level but implemented differently). In
this
case,
> >>> the
> >>> > > > Dashboard.WebHome should be removed completely from the
menu,
> >>> because
> >>> > the
> >>> > > > dashboard _is_ the home page (see my remark above) :) .
We can
> >>> make the
> >>> > > > homepage a regular page so that users can edit it very
easily
by
> >>> > default,
> >>> > > > but we also allow them to easily make it a dashboard
with
> gadgets
> >>> and
> >>> > > drag
> >>> > > > & drop, so that they can organize their content. I am
thinking
> for
> >>> > > example
> >>> > > > of a button on the homepage, in view mode injected with
> javascript
> >>> or
> >>> > UI
> >>> > > > extension or I don't know, which runs a script that
creates a
> new
> >>> > version
> >>> > > > of the homepage which contains a dashboard macro call and
a
> default
> >>> > > gadget
> >>> > > > and the user is taken to the edit mode of the homepage,
with
the
> >>> > > dashboard
> >>> > > > editor in it.
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > The only reason why the dashboard is separate now, in
> >>> > Dashboard.WebHome,
> >>> > > is
> >>> > > > for legacy reasons, because it used to be included as
the
> homepage
> >>> of
> >>> > all
> >>> > > > sort of default spaces, so we needed something that can
be
> re-used
> >>> for
> >>> > > > spaces homes as well. Otherwise, from my point of view,
it
does
> not
> >>> > need
> >>> > > to
> >>> > > > be a separate entity. I mean, one should be able to
create as
> many
> >>> > > > dashboards as they'd want (on any page they want),
but by
> default
> >>> the
> >>> > > > dashboard of the wiki is only one, the homepage of the
wiki.
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > Anca
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 3:23 PM, vincent(a)massol.net <
> >>> > vincent(a)massol.net>
> >>> > > > wrote:
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > > Hi devs,
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > As you know I started working on a Home Page
Application,
see:
> >>> > > > > - JIRA with
screenshots:
> >>> http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-10586
> >>> > > > > - Discussion thread:
> >>> http://markmail.org/message/ghelufamwucog46x
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > I have it all done locally but I refrained from
committing
it
> >>> because
> >>> > > on
> >>> > > > > the email thread some expressed their doubts.
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > I started thinking about it and I expressed some
idea in the
> >>> thread
> >>> > > > > started by Caty about "Wiki - Space - Page
concepts pitch":
> >>> > > > > http://markmail.org/message/jefze7nvprz36pkw
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > I’m pasting it here again for discussion (with some
edits):
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > "
> >>> > > > > BTW concerning the home page, I’m more and more
leaning
> towards
> >>> > > removing
> >>> > > > > the dashboard from it (it’s accessible from the App
panel
> >>> anyway) and
> >>> > > > > instead have it contain:
> >>> > > > > - explanation about how the wiki is organized
(wikis,
spaces,
> >>> pages)
> >>> > > > > - explanation about base concepts (editing, saving,
etc)
> >>> > > > > - encourage the user to edit this home page to make
it his
own
> >>> and
> >>> > put
> >>> > > > the
> >>> > > > > content he wishes instead
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > I think this would solve the following issues:
> >>> > > > > - users always want to customize the home page and
this
makes
> it
> >>> easy
> >>> > > > > (it’s a standard page, no dashboard). This is also a
way for
> >>> them to
> >>> > > take
> >>> > > > > ownership of the wiki as theirs.
> >>> > > > > - explains the main concepts of wiki, space, page
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > Of course, we also need to provide a navigation
panel for
easy
> >>> > > navigation
> >>> > > > > in the wiki/spaces/pages.
> >>> > > > > “
> >>> > > > >
> >>> > > > > If we agree about the idea of removing the dashboard
and
> instead
> >>> > have a
> >>> > > > > simple page then we’ll need to discuss the exact
content and
> for
> >>> that
> >>> > > I’m
> >>> > > > > proposing to discuss with Caty/GuillaumeD and make a
proposal
for
>> > > further
>> > > > > discussion. Of course any idea in reply to this email would
also
>> be
>> > > much
>> > > > > appreciated.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > But first things first! We first need to decide if this is a
good
>> > idea
>> > > or
>> > > > > not.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > WDYT?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Thanks
>> > > > > -Vincent
>> > > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > > devs mailing list
>> > > > > devs(a)xwiki.org
>> > > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>> > > > >
>> > > > _______________________________________________
>> > > > devs mailing list
>> > > > devs(a)xwiki.org
>> > > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>> > > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > devs mailing list
>> > > devs(a)xwiki.org
>> > > http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>> > >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > devs mailing list
>> > devs(a)xwiki.org
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>> >
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