15 Sep
2015
15 Sep
'15
4:30 p.m.
Hi Marius,
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea <
mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
Hi Guillaume,
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:26 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
folder
I am making an intentional confusion because I think that this is how
end-users are going to perceive it too. I think I understand well enough
XWiki's current model, the reason why there's a Main space to begin with
and the fact that it's just a space among others, not a top-level space by
itself.
However, we cannot expect that level of implicit knowledge from a fresh new
user. As a new user, I'm on "Main", which to me is the top level page, I
create a new page, and it's created next to Main, not under it. That
doesn't fit with my mental model of how nested pages should work. That new
page should be under Main, not at the same level. Do you see what I mean?
As pointed out by Caty, I also understand that there are technical
limitations that explain this behavior and that it's tough to overcome them
in the short amount of time that we have as part of the 7.2 release
timeframe. We'll most likely have to keep the current behavior and live
with it for a while. But I know for sure that it is going to create
confusion for some end users, the same way it did for me :-)
Thanks,
Guillaume
Hi Caty,
thanks for your message. Please see my answers below.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
7.2
Hi,
The current behavior was reached after many discussions.
I understand. However, I only got the time to actually try and test XE last week. And based on what Edy said, I'm
not the only one who was
surprised by the current behavior :-)
> Currently the concept of main wiki is expressed as the 'home' icon, but
is
> not tied to a particular space. This is
something we preserved and is
> flexible enough for users with custom content to change the location of
the
homepage
or assigned a different space, for a different subwiki.
I understand this. I'm not questioning the current behavior, but the
underlying assumption. Given the new paradigm we're implementing with
nested spaces, why would an user want to change the location of the
homepage? To me, it's like saying that you would want the top level on your computer to be something else than the
hard drive itself. I don't
understand why that would be useful.
The hard-drive is the wiki not the Main space. Or, if you want to be
precise, the entire farm is the hard-drive, a wiki is a partition on
that hard-drive and a space is a folder on a partition. The Main space
is just one of the top level "folders". Blog, XWiki, Sandbox are also
at the top level. And you can create new top level "folders". When you
access XWiki you get redirected to the Main space by default but
someone may want the Blog space to be opened by default.
Do you have specific use cases in mind that I might be missing (other
than
"this feature existed before")?
Also we needed to showcase differently spaces that are top level, vs.
pages
inside
the Main space, while having the limited number of exceptions
created for the breadcrumb.
I think there are 2 separate problems here:
1. Where should we put all of the pages that
are currently in the
"Main"
space if we decide that not all of them
deserve to be top-level pages
Pages from the Main space are not top level. Main is top level, and
Main is on the same level with Blog, Sandbox and XWiki. Check the
document index tree. I have the feeling you're making a confusion.
2. Making it possible to have top-level pages in a
coherent manner
what
one
For 1., pages in the Main space could stay where they are for now. "Main"
would be the legacy space where we put useful tools for the management of
your wiki.
I'm discussing the answer for 2. below.
Also I wouldn't like that all the URL contain the word 'Main' Imagine
that
besides
the 'xwiki/bin/view/' we would need to also contain the homepage
space?
My very point is that the home page wouldn't (shouldn't?) need to be
"Main". It would be "". IE, there would be nothing in the URL to
reflect
it. It would be a representation of the wiki itself.
I understand that technically this is not feasible right now and that we
*need* to have a specific page be the home page, which is the role played
by Main.WebHome. What I'm saying is that with the new system, I'd rather
have *.../xwiki/bin/view/WebHome => **.../xwiki/bin/view/ *would be the
whole wiki. That level would be the top level space (which is exactly has been implemented by the way). Do you see what
I mean?
> Although we have a convention that a certain page is displayed as
> homepage, this is not needed to be in the URL. 'home' icon is a link for
> the homepage, not a physical location. Currently the 'Main' space can
> contain pages useful for the display of the homepage, but is an
'optional'
space.
What I' suggesting is precisely that the home page be its own document at
the very top of the hierarchy, ABOVE what is currently known as
Main.WebHome. This is why while the user is on this page, she should see
only the home icon.
Is this making what I mean clearer? I'm just suggesting we push things step further in the direction that has already
been established.
Thanks,
Guillaume
Thanks,
> Caty
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Guillaume Lerouge <
guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Edy,
> >
> > thanks for the explanation. Please see my feedback below.
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Yes, "this is not a bug, it's a feature!" :) I had documented
it in
a
> > small
> > > paragraph [1] (see the note) but did not feel it was worthy to be
> > mentioned
> > > in the release notes. Please feel free to rephrase if needed.
> > >
> > > It's not specifically about "Main", but about the current
wiki's
> homepage
> > > (and "Main.WebHome" is the default homepage that can be changed
from
> > > administration).
> > >
> >
> > Does this feature (changing the home page) still makes sense in the
> context
> > of nested spaces? What is the point to define the home page as
> ".../A/B/C"
> > when based on the new system, "C" is a sub-sub page?
> >
> > To me, with nested spaces the home page is always the same and cannot
be
> > changed. You may want to add a redirect,
but this doesn't change the
fact
> > that the top page is the same.
> >
> >
> > > The effort is to try to avoid the situation where a regular user
lands
> on
> > > the homepage of the wiki (just accessed the wiki or maybe he clicked
> the
> > > logo) and wants to create a document. He enters the title and
presses
> > > "create". Obviously his
intention was to create a page, and, more
often
> > > than not (IMO at least), his actual
intention was to create a top
level
> > > document and not a child document
of the wiki's current homepage.
> > >
> >
> > I agree with this. However, in that case, shouldn't the home page be
> simply
> > *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/* instead of
> > *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/* ?
> >
> > Using short URLs, you could even have the home page under *https://
> > <server>/
> > *and then subpages at *https://<server>/A, **https://<server>/A/B*
and
> so
> > on. This would be in line with what most CMS do and it would fix your
> > issue: any page created from the home is a sub-page at the expected
> level.
> >
> > Image the homepage gets changed to "Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage".
> > > Without this "trick", a regular user would end up, by mistake IMO
(and
> by
> > > using the "next-next-next" mindset), creating the document
> > > "Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage.NewDocument".
> > >
> >
> > As I said above, I actually think we should remove this feature in the
> > context of nested spaces.
> >
> >
> > > Even if the homepage remains the default one, I see no logical
reason
> in
> > > spamming all the new documents with the "Main" prefix, the result
being
> > an
> > > artificially deeper hierarchy and longer URL.
> > >
> >
> > Agreed. As mentioned above, ideally we'd remove it.
> >
> >
> > > If a user really intended to create a document as a child of the
> homepage
> > > (rare usecase IMO), he has all the tools in the UI to simply do so.
> > >
> > > I agree that it's a minor consistency dent, but IMO the benefit
> justifies
> > > it.
> > >
> >
> > I don't quite agree that it's minor. One of the implied goals of
nested
> > spaces is to be able to have consistent
URL naming (I know exactly
where
> > page *https://<server>/A/B/C *is).
Having a special case for Main
breaks
> > this.
> >
> > Similarly, when on the home page on the main wiki, I don't understand
why
> > the breadcrumb shows both the
"home" icon and "Home" text. Why keep
both
> > when the icon would be enough?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Guillaume
> >
> > WDYT? (interested in more opinions on this since I've already had 2
> > > eyebrows raised on this topic :) )
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Eduard
> > >
> > > ---------
> > > [1]
> > >
> > >
> >
>
http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Features/DocumentLifecycle#HByusin…
> > >
> > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
> guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Devs,
> > > >
> > > > I started trying out XE 7.2 (SNAPSHOT from around 12:30 today)
and I
> > was
> > > > very impressed, the changes look quite good!
> > > >
> > > > While playing with it, I had a question about how the "Main"
space is
> > > > handled. Here's what I
did: from .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/, I
clicked
> > the
> > > > "create" button and created a sub page, then a sub-sub page.
Here's
> > what
> > > I
> > > > got:
> > > >
> > > > - .../xwiki/bin/view/SubPage/SubSubPage
> > > >
> > > > Although I was expecting this:
> > > >
> > > > - .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/SubPage/SubSubPage
> > > >
> > > > So I was wondering whether this was the expected behavior, and
> whether
> > it
> > > > had been discussed before?
> > > >
> > > > Congrats & Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Guillaume