10 Nov
2014
10 Nov
'14
1:39 p.m.
On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 2:18 PM, Thomas Mortagne <thomas.mortagne(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
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Thomas Mortagne
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On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Eduard Moraru
<enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Well, yes. In Windows you will always have frustrations when making it work
with other systems that don`t have uniqueness constraints, so it`s obvious
you will have problems.
In XWiki`s case, at some point you should not have a XAR with 2 documents
with different casing in the same space, except if dealing with older
versions. (migrations from other wiki systems is another case when you
might hit this). For attachments I was not proposing an uniqueness
constraint since the collision chance is higher (files coming from
different folders on the user's HDD end up in the same space, so
c:\test.txt and d:\Test.txt both end up in Main.SomeDocument => collision).
Also, it's easy to spot a collision on an attachment since you see the list
of attachments you have uploaded. When creating a document, your focus is
narrowed and you don`t really see documents "around you".
Anyway, your points are valid and I agree that we should probably just
avoid all the confusion caused by this costly transition.
I guess the UI suggestion improvements is the only thing we are left with
at the moment.
Sure, we could try adding uniqueness constraints just at an UI level, which
could also be configurable, while the platform would remain free to do
whatever it wishes, just as long as the UI is always aware that duplicates,
even if not allowed to, could still exist. Of course, being an UI thing, it
would not be guaranteed, even if enabled, since each application could do
whatever it wishes in its UI or its components; so more of a "hit or miss"
if anyone tries to enable it.
Thanks,
Eduard
On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 1:06 PM, Thomas Mortagne
<
thomas.mortagne(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
sensitive,
Pretty much the same comments here.
On personal side this is one of the thing I hate about Windows ("just
do what the hell I told you to do and don't try to be clever").
I agree with that, but on the practical aspects, how often do you need to
have in the same folder all the following files:
- "test
- "TEST"
- "Test"
?
Also, as Marius pointed out, the FAT/Windows filesystem is case it just has an uniqueness constraint, so you can
name stuff however you
want to, just don`t have duplicates because you will quickly make a mess
of
yourself.
It's easy to use the above argument for various cases, however IMO our
goal
should be to write useful software, and the
features we are discussing
here
are mainly targeting the users, not the admins.
My logic tells me that
users are more interested in resources and not in resource names.
("potato,
patato" [1] - see the OP on same resource,
multiple names because of
casing).
It's not so much about common use case that the fact that having two
files with different cases do exist (because pretty much everything
that is not system dependent is case sensitive) but in Windows I won't
be able to just download them without having to think about it and if
they are in a zip, just unzip it won't work, if there is such files in
a git repository I won't be able to clone or update it on Windows,
etc. Also because Windows is so clever you simply can't change your
file's case, you have to rename your file to something that does not
match and then rename it to what you really want. On the other hand
having two files with different cases in a folder never was an issue
in any way for me on Linux.
In other words being sure that I can copy/download/import anything
anywhere without having to worry about path size, support characters,
getting conflict that never really existed, etc... is of more interest
to me than being totally lost (it's so complex to understand, right)
because I have two files with different case in a folder.
I don't really see how stating that I'm not annoyed by the right
things and saying that Windows is actually great with the use case I'm
not having is going to help the debate. I already said that I have a
technical point of view and having matching between two files of
different case can be of some interest for basic users.
In the use case of XWiki what I don't like is similar to what I
explained for Windows which is that I don't like too much changing the
whole platform to make impossible to support something that might be a
real use case for any reason, impossible to import a XAR with two
pages having different case, impossible to attach files with different
case because you need it to be that way because you are using a tool
that needs it that way, etc... Basically I don't like adding a
limitation that is far from being a universal limitation.
Thanks,
Eduard
----------
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mc3Fn7R9mkE
>
> On technical side everyone should understand that this is a huge
> refactoring that will produce regressions for at least one year.
> Another things is that it's slower so performance are going to be
> worst in most of the XWiki code.
>
> On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 11:24 AM, Marius Dumitru Florea
> <mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
> > I'm undecided. As a technical Linux user I prefer case sensitivity,
but I
> > can see why this is sometimes unexpected
for non-technical users. I'm
not
> > sure how you plan to implement this. I
know this thread is not about
the
> > technical aspects but still I think
it's important to consider the
cost
> > that this change will imply.
> >
> > First, even for a case insensitive system, I think it's very
important to
> > preserve the case entered by the user.
For instance, If I create a
user
> > with the alias 'myCoolAlias'
then I wouldn't like to see 'mycoolalias'
> > displayed in the UI. Same, if I attach a file named
> > 'myCoolPresentation.odp' then I want to see precisely that name on the
> list
> > of attachments. So we need to store case sensitive values in the
> database.
> > The difference from now will be:
> >
> > * when creating an entity: check that there's no other entity that has
> the
> > same normalized reference (toLowerCase/toUpperCase)
> >
> > * when retrieving an entity: look for normalized references
> >
> > This means we'll have to call toLowerCase/toUpperCase very often so we
> need
> > proper database indexes. Otherwise we'll have a performance impact.
> >
> > Second, we have lots of places that query the database and since we
have
> to
> > store the raw case-sensitive values then we need to update all this
> places.
> > Moreover, since it's not about a single field/column I'm not sure we
can
> > write a query filter to lower the case
automatically. Then we also
have a
> > lot of extensions that query the
database and that create entities.
Those
> > will have to be updated too.
> >
> > Lastly, AFAIK lower case and upper case are locale dependent. The
'lower'
> > query function doesn't have a locale
parameter so it depends on the
> locale
> > the database has been configured with. So there can be cases when a
user
> > won't be able to retrieve an entity
using some locale dependent
lowercase
> > version of the reference because the
database computes the lower case
> > differently than what the user expects (because it uses a different
> locale).
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Marius
> >
> >
> > On Nov 7, 2014 12:34 PM, "Eduard Moraru" <enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi users and devs,
> >>
> >> I would like to have your opinion on the topic of case sensitive vs
case
> >> insensitive and which one you prefer
in XWiki.
> >>
> >> Currently, XWiki is case sensitive. This means the same resource name
> >> (document name, space name, etc) can be written with either small
> letters
> >> or big letters or a mix.
> >>
> >> Examples: You can have both "Main.Test" and "Main.test"
as 2
different
> >> documents. Also, you can have
"XWiki.Admin" and "XWiki.admin" as 2
> >> different users. This also applies to URLs, as "/Main/Test" is
different
> >> from "/Main/test" or
"/main/test", so all these 3 are different
> resources.
> >>
> >> Even from this short description, one can already identify possible
> >> problems of this approach.
> >>
> >> From the top 3 operating systems (Linux, Mac an Windows), only Linux
is
> >> case sensitive, the other two (more
user-focused Operating Systems)
are
> >> both case insensitive.
> >>
> >> Since XWiki has one of its main targets the Enterprise users, it is
safe
> > to
> >> assume that the correct approach would be to also be more
user-focused
> and
> >> simplify things and avoid confusions by being case insensitive as
well.
> >>
> >> Also, a quick search on existing issues validates the need for this
> >> improvement:
> >>
http://jira.xwiki.org/issues/?jql=text%20~%20%22case%20insensitive%22
> >>
> >> What do you think? Is it OK to keep XWiki case sensitive, or would
you
> prefer it case insensitive? Bring arguments.
>
> I have also created a jira issue for this idea:
> http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11412 to track it in the future.
>
> Thanks,
> Eduard
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Thomas Mortagne
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