3 Oct
2014
3 Oct
'14
3:12 p.m.
HI Caty,
thanks for your work on this!
I tend to agree with Vincent on this: we could use Var 2 for XE 6.2.2 and
experiment with Var 3 for XE 6.3-6.4 based on the feedback we get.
ᐧ
Guillaume
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 2:28 PM, vincent(a)massol.net <vincent(a)massol.net>
wrote:
On 3 Oct 2014 at 13:05:08, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (valicac(a)gmail.com
(mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
Hi,
Some notes about the proposal:
- I like the 'Add' represented as '+' and after the Wiki/Space/Page
breadcrumb, because is somehow consistent with the '+' (More
applications)
from the AppBar. Provides a way to create
elements of a particular type
in
the near vicinity where the elements are
displayed.
What I don’t like is that it’s the only menu entry at the top that
wouldn’t have any text (just an icon) and it’s one of the most important
one.
I’d use a color (the green one looks fine to me to make it visible) for
now for 6.2.2 and maybe do some usability testing on various variations as
you did for the other usability tests, in order to gather more feedback and
have more time to gather it.
- Although I know there will be some initial
findability issues for the
'Add', after the user founds it I don't think it will have problems
finding
it again. We can improve the findability by
finally providing an
Introductory Wizard. Except for the initial moments when you learn
XWiki, I
don't see the point of having a very
distinctive style for 'Add' and I
would prefer to go on the consistent/integrated with the other navbar
elements direction.
- The same comment about a distinctive style for 'Search'. IMO 'Search'
should look integrated in the .navbar.
- I dislike the idea of having multiple 'Add' buttons. Also the 'Add -
Comment to page' and 'Add - Attachment to page' are part of the Colibri
skin, but IMO were 'close to never' used. I remember a bug on them that
made them unusable and we discovered it after some years or something.
Also
I don't think we should provide buttons for
all the functionality we can
think of, but leave them be created from their context. I prefer having
buttons just for the generic and base concepts of XWiki (in the try of
keeping it minimal and simple).
- We are kind of going a bit too crazy about brainstorming and ideas. The
only conclusion we need to reach is if for Flamingo we move the button
back
top.
Yes I agree completely with this. We shouldn’t mix everything right now or
we won’t progress.
The only other thing that we may want to have in 6.2.2 too is the removal
of the 2 part-buttons at the top and the introduction of the “Go to…” for
navigation.
The rest is fine to discuss and tune for 6.3+ IMO.
Thanks
-Vincent
Thanks,
Caty
On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Eduard Moraru wrote:
> Big +1 for Var3 for the simple fact that it looks like a
"holistic"/global
> approach that does not only focus on a
specific element, like the "Add"
> button and currently falls into the mistake of making it a bright shiny
> beacon to misguided users, resulting in something that is overall
> disturbing to the eye. Same can be said about the "Search" element,
since
> it now reduces the heavy contrast of both
the search input (bright
white on
> dark background) and its search button
(bright colored blue on dark
> background).
>
> About the Search button (re: Jeremie): Because it is the first element
in
> its group, it will show to the left and no
other elements will be
> disturbed, so the transition will be nice for users. Basically the
expand
> search button (the magnifying glass) becomes
a button once you expand
it,
> so there should be no flicker or anything
like that.
> - As an alternative, if we really are against
> transitions/animations/expandable elements/etc, we could just present
the
> search as directly expanded (classic way),
but still keep the darker
input
> color to avoid the "kitch" effect
described above due to high
contrasts.
>
> About the + (Add) button, IMO, the only thing we could do more if we
really
> want to emphasize it in an *elegant*
fashion, would be to make the +
sign
> itself green, or with some green border,
whatever. Whatever we do, we
> should try to consider Caty's opinion on style here since she might
have
a
> better eye and this proposal here seems to
be towards that direction.
>
> IMO, one very interesting thing to note is the extended (3.4) version
and
> long term view that we also need to take
into account and, at least to
me,
> that looks really slick.
>
> I think we should stick to the original intent of this Flamingo skin,
with
> the addition of Bootstrap's style, and
keep it slick, minimalistic and
to
> the point. The users should focus more on
the content instead of the
UI,
> don`t u think?
>
> ------
> On a related note, If you ask me, I would be in favor of also removing
the
> labels from "Edit" and "More
actions" and just go with the *all too
> obvious* "pencil" and "cog" icons. GMail uses the
"cog" icon with 0
> problems and I kind of trust that their UX army did their research and
> impact studies for that :)
>
> Also, on matters of "consistency" we would achieve the following
statement:
> "Actions have only icons, while
entities have an icon and a label that
> displays the entity's name".
> - Actions: add, edit, search, more actions, etc.
> - Entities (with dropdown menu for actions on the entries): wiki,
space,
> page, user.
> ------
>
> Let's keep this skin clean and a pleasure to work on/with, WDYT?
>
> Thanks,
> Eduard
>
> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> valicac(a)gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I've created this proposal
> >
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocation
> > Please read it and give your opinion on
it. The proposal is based on
> > discussed solution, but improves a bit the styling.
> >
> > If you are curious how I reached some of the proposal's conclusions,
you
> > can see it's iterations
> >
> >
>
http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/FlamingoAddMenuLocationIter…
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Caty
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 7:59 PM, Guillaume Lerouge
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > actually one thing we could try is this:
> > >
> > > - *Keep the "Add" button where it is and use it for
page-related
> > > actions:*
> > > - "Add child page"
> > > - "Add comment" (as suggested by Denis)
> > > - "Add attachment" (as suggested by Denis)
> > >
> > >
> > > - *Add a "Create" button in the top bar, with 2/3 options:*
> > > - "Create page" (TBD)
> > > - "Create space"
> > > - "Create wiki"
> > > - In this case, after clicking "Create" the user would be
presented
> > with
> > > a page / modal box listing existing instances as well as available
> > > templates
> > >
> > > I think this would solve both my issues (having less-frequent
actions
> in
> > > the same location as a more-frequent one, not being in the right
place
> on
> > > the page) and GuillaumeD's wife issue (the "Add" button is
easy to
find
> > > where it is right now, why move
it?).
> > >
> > > WDYT?
> > >
> > > Guillaume
> > > ᐧ
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:48 PM, vincent(a)massol.net > > >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 13:31:56, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com
> (mailto:
> > > > enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On that note:
> > > > > The funny/sad thing to realise is that we are basing all this
> > > discussion
> > > > on
> > > > > the fact that some users did not find the "Add" button
*only
the
> > first
> > > > > time* they tried to do something. The realization is that this
is
> one
> > > of
> > > > > those things (idioms[1][2]) that you learn once and know how to
> > easily
> > > do
> > > > > the next 1000x times (like riding a bike).
> > > > >
> > > > > The real problem appears when you are in those "next 1000x
time"
> and
> > > you
> > > > > find it cumbersome to use (like riding a bike with no saddle,
or
> with
> > > the
> > > > > saddle on backwards :) ). So in both cases (top or middle of
the
> > page)
> > > > once
> > > > > you find it once, you will find it again, however in the
middle of
> > the
> > > > page
> > > > > it conflicts too often with the Edit button and other page
related
> > > > actions,
> > > > > that it becomes cumbersome to use.
> > > >
> > > > Indeed that’s something I had in mind too. If you just ask to
add a
> > page
> > > > and that’s all then you’re not doing a full test. You’d need to
ask
> the
> > > > user to:
> > > > - add a page
> > > > - delete a page
> > > > - move a page
> > > > - create a space
> > > > - etc
> > > >
> > > > And then only you can draw some conclusion IMO.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > -Vincent
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Eduard
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------
> > > > > [1] http://thor.info.uaic.ro/~evalica/hci/L2/
> > > > > [2]
> > > >
> https://www.englishforums.com/English/IdiomsVsMetaphors/cqwl/post.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 12:47 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 2 Oct 2014 at 11:06:00, Guillaume Louis-Marie Delhumeau
(
> > > > > > gdelhumeau@xwiki.com(mailto:gdelhumeau@xwiki.com)) wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have done the "test-on-my-wife" thing :)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > She finds it more intuitive to add a page from the
current
> page,
> > so
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > current location, instead of the "black bar that
gives the
> > > > impression of
> > > > > > > not beeing a part of that page" (that she did not
manage to
> find
> > by
> > > > > > > herself).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I then explained that the buttons inside the page only
concern
> > the
> > > > > > actions
> > > > > > > that you can do on that page, meanwhile adding a new
page
> should
> > be
> > > > put
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > an other location. She did not like this logic :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So with this logic we should remove the top bar completely
and
> move
> > > all
> > > > > > actions inside the page, i.e. have only 1 menu inside the
page.
> > > > Because if
> > > > > > she couldn’t find the Add button there she also wouldn’t be
able
> to
> > > > find
> > > > > > all wiki-related actions, space-related actions and more
> > importantly
> > > > > > **page-related** actions like copy page, rename page or
delete
> > page…
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also would be fun to ask your wife to try using Confluence
and
> see
> > if
> > > > she
> > > > > > fails to create a page there too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > -Vincent
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Users' logic and developer's logic are not the
same. I
like the
> > > > current
> > > > > > > location too, except that we should propose
"create page"
> before
> > > > "create
> > > > > > > wiki".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I really would like to have some feedback of normal
users,
with
> > > the 2
> > > > > > > proposals. We, as developers, are not good at making
things
> that
> > > look
> > > > > > > simple for other people, so we should not take this
decision
> > alone.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Guillaume Delhumeau
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