6 Mar
2009
6 Mar
'09
3:23 a.m.
Hi,
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 8:01 PM, Jerome Velociter <jerome(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
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Guillaume Lerouge
Product Manager - XWiki
Skype ID : wikibc
http://guillaumelerouge.com/
Anca Paula Luca wrote:
with the old syntax I meant
> and, if we use meaningful spaces, we only get
> rid of the problem because users wouldn't be able to nicely format the
> tables/lists/etc at all. So meaningful spaces means that you're taking
away the
After thinking a bit more about it, here's my updated point of view:
1. Developers are mostly the only ones who will care about nice syntax
formatting in the wiki editor
2. We are working hard to make our wiki easier to use for business users
3. Developers are advanced user thus able to make their way round whether
ot not spaces are meaningful in wiki syntax
4. Apart from them, almost nobody cares about nicely aligned tables and
indented code
5. As Jérôme pointed it out, developers will use other tools than the
wiki editor anyway when developing
6. Thus we're basically fighting with a non-issue: trying to preserve a
feature that does not matter for the user base we need to convince our wiki
is the greatest around (*business users* are the *core users* of an
*enterprise
wiki*)
So here's my updated vote:
*I'm -1 for making spaces non-meaningful, either in the WYSIWYG or the wiki
editor.*
If developers want nifty development features and great-looking code, we
need to provide them with actual development tools (Eclipse, XEclipse,
Bespin). Business users don't care about that and they expect to have what
you see is what you get: a space when writing is a space on screen once
saved, be it in WYSIWYG editor or in wiki syntax.
Thanks to everybody's feedback,
Guillaume
Anca Paula Luca wrote:
> Marius Dumitru Florea wrote:
>> Thomas Mortagne wrote:
>>> Hi devs,
>>>
>>> We have to make a decision about that.
>>>
>>> So here are the proposals:
>>>
>>> 1) remove the block leading and trainling spaces
>>> * The main goal is to make source formatting for tables for example
>>> more readable
>>>
>>> 2) make the spaces inside paragraph non meaningfull
>>> * Meaning an HTML like behavior where multiple spaces give one space
>>>
>>> 3) in case of 1) or 2) use ~<space> as non breaking space
>>>
>>> WDYT ?
>> -0, the users will blame the WYSIWYG for messing up their nicely
>> formatted table/lists/etc. when switching between the editors. This
will
make the WYSIWYG unusable for a wiki syntax user.
1/ this problem was there already > possibility of nicely formated wiki syntax
even to users that use _only_
wiki
> syntax and therefore could take advantage of
it.
>
> 2/ as it was mentioned in a discussion we once had with Vincent, I'm
wondering
> how many wiki syntax users will there be out
there once we get the new
wysiwyg
> strong enough.
There always will be developers for that (even if not necessarily
through the wiki editor but rather through XEclipse or bespin's editor).
I have doubts about scripting velocity or groovy in a dialog box in the
wysiwyg :)
My 2 cents,
Jerome.
> Otherwise put, is this use-case frequent enough?
>
> Happy coding,
> Anca
>
>> Marius
>>
>>> +0,5 for 1) it's not critical for me but i'm not against it and we
>>> already decided to remove space before list item, headers etc.
>>> -0 for 2) I don't see the need for that and it's a lot easier for
the
>>> parser to make spaces meaningfull (what to do when you have "test **
>>> bold**" and things like that)
>>> +1 for 3)
>>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 15:44, Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net>
wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> This is our last chance to change this behavior. We've found several
>>>> places where having meaningful spaces are counter-productive:
>>>>
>>>> * in table cells since we can't align table anymore. For example:
>>>>
>>>> |= column1 |= column2
>>>> | this is some para | second column
>>>> | hello | world
>>>>
>>>> (not sure this will be rendered nicely in mail but you see what I
mean)
>
> * in scripts since having meaningful spaces prevents us from aligning
> velocity or groovy scripts. For ex we can't write:
>
> #if (....)
> #if (...)
> do something
> # end
> #end
>
> To see a better example have a look at http://tinyurl.com/ahz669
>
> What I think users real want are meaningful new lines but I see cons
> overweighting pros for having meaningful white spaces. Thus I'm think
> we should strip whitespaces at beginning and end of lines including
> for line breaks.
> I'm slightly less sure for multiple spaces between words but even
> there I think we could strip them have users use {{{ }}} to put a non
> breaking space for ex (or introduce a {{space/}} macro or another
> special syntax although I'd rather we don't introduce a new syntax).
>
> WDYT?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
> http://xwiki.com
> http://xwiki.org
> http://massol.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
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