1 Oct
2014
1 Oct
'14
2:41 p.m.
On 1 Oct 2014 at 14:12:09, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica)
(valicac@gmail.com(mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 2:33 PM, Eduard Moraru wrote:
I understand that you can be a bit upset and I’m sorry about that. However we need to face
it: we only get real feedback when people start seeing it for real. This is also why we
shouldn’t spend too much time on proposal/designs/architecture and instead more quickly
implement ideas and get feedback.
Regarding the “Add” vs “Create” naming, I forgot our discussion and I don’t remember the
arguments. It’s less important than the location of the button and moving the search to
the right for me.
It seems we have a majority of agreements for the “Add/Create” button at the top
(including yourself) instead of inside the page and I would be in favor of changing it
quickly (6.2.2) mostly because:
- this is where it was in the Colibri skin (in the top menu) and the majority of users
have not upgraded to 6.x yet and asking them to adapt to the new location and to change it
just after is sad if we can avoid it.
- It’s better to not break people’s habits unless there’s a good reason to justify the
change and here I don’t see a good reason (nor any logic)
- incidentally it also solves the issue with the search bar being the most prominent item
on the page
Last I should say that I have voiced my concerns about the Add button and the Search bar
several times in the past and I haven’t waited today. What makes it stronger today is that
I’m hearing more people who also don’t like having the “Add” button contextually in the
page.
Thanks
-Vincent
Hi,
I kind of like this proposal. As Jeremie pointed out, we`re more or less
back where we started from, with the "improvement" that the "Add"
button is
now in the middle of the page, hard to miss :)
Now, if we also rename "Add" to "Create", the only downside is that
awkward
feeling of more or less cloning Atlassian's UI. However, it's never a
question of UI ownership or copying, but just of what works best in
practice and what makes sense.
Hi,
Denis asked some days ago why some things changed from the original
Flamingo proposal "which we all agreed on". Apparently this is the reason
some of the things changed: listening to different opinions.
One of the reasons I'm a bit upset with these discussions is that when we
proposed Flamingo, a prototype was also available, so all these 'concerns'
should have been noticed earlier, not in 6.2.1. These kind of discussions
should happen in the Proposal phase, not in the Testing phase.
Also all the changes proposed in Flamingo, where discussed before. We used
'Add' naming because 'Create' was less used 'in the wild', was
shorter,
etc. We moved the Add (from the Colibri position) because some users find
it difficult to locate, wanted to improve the actions grouping, etc.
----
I liked the Colibri's 'Add' position and I just want us to make this change
because we think that is the best place for it, not because we are
influenced and think another product might have the magic solution to our
problems.
If you consider that after a 'period of testing' that location is not the
best place for the 'Add' button to be, than I agree we can 'revert' the
change. IMO the menus are still not optimal, but I guess only testing could
give us an impartial answer. I would have liked a bit more time to test
this solution with 'normal' users, and I hope we don't do this change
because regular/advanced users had a hard time to adapt to it. I will
repeat myself, I think skins are allowed to have differences (but maybe
testing different solutions would be more acceptable if we had more skins
or changed them more often). Thanks,
Caty
Regarding the addition of yet another "Add" button for page-related
entries, as suggested by Denis, I`m not sure it's such a good idea. I never
did like modals that much in web interfaces and, AFAIK, they are not
recommended that much in HCI (Human-Computer Interaction) classes either,
for the simple reason that they are too volatile and are not friendly with
the browser's "Back" button. I think we already have enough shortcuts in
the 'More Actions' section and the 'Edit' dropdown.
Thanks,
Eduard
On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea <
mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
bottom
http://tof.canardpc.com/view/25ad0704-563e-41cd-bbf2-72c371912245.jpg
Create
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s119/sh/948c4f24-2485-4b33-8452-1e6e1a2d6c74…
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s119/sh/b8803c9b-4ea7-43dd-a2ed-1226080074f2…
is
index
http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/File+Manager+Applicati…
"Actions"
actions
http://extensions.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Extension/Unique+Identification+…
to
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http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 1:07 PM, Denis Gervalle
wrote:
normally)
On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Guillaume
"Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <
gdelhumeau(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
> Even better:
> http://tof.canardpc.com/view/19c9c68f-9dae-440e-ad82-3b8a6cc4623a.jpg
Yes that one looks very cool to me but... :)
I wonder if the name would not be better to be "Create".
Since, I think we still need an another button in the page called "Add"
to
> add to the page:
> * annotations using modal (you may select, than use the button 
* comment
using a modal (without having to scroll to the bottom)
* attachement using a modal (without having to scroll to the bottom),
* objects using a modal (without necessarily needing to load all
existing
objects for edit, so a page could show objects
without having to manage
addition of new ones, AWSeconds)
> This way, the extradoc tabs could be hidden, independently of the
> comment/attachment functionality, and the pain of scrolling to the is
removed.
Adding a comment or uploading a file using a modal box is fine.
Viewing the comments/attachments in a modal box is not a good idea
IMO. The user expects to see the comments/attachments after the
content. I don't think we can hide the extradoc tabs. Or maybe I
misunderstood.
It give also some logic to those button, with a
non-contextual
create button, and a contextual add button. We could then allow
application
to hook both of them depending on their needs.
Another, a bit off-topic, remarks, is that in the More actions,
annotation
should be isolated, and work like a toggle to
display/hide them
(including
> the author filter box and the tooltips), without needing to click a
> seperate checkbox.
>
> WDYT ?
>
>
>>
>> 2014-10-01 10:59 GMT+02:00 Guillaume "Louis-Marie" Delhumeau <
>> gdelhumeau(a)xwiki.com>gt;:
>>
>> > So basically, you want:
>> > 
>> >
>> > 2014-10-01 10:46 GMT+02:00 vincent(a)massol.net :
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> On 1 Oct 2014 at 10:09:00, Guillaume Lerouge (guillaume(a)xwiki.com
>> (mailto:
>> >> guillaume(a)xwiki.com)) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Hi,
>> >> >
>> >> > after discussing with Vincent this morning we came to a
suggestion
>> that
>> >> > would fix my issue with the current location of the add button.
The
> idea
> >> > would be to move the search bar to the left of the menu, and put
the
> >> "Add"
> >> > button in its place.
> >> >
> >> > Crude image explanation here:
> >> > https://www.dropbox.com/s/hrxlj6n6pztigic/AddButton-Search.png
> >> >
> >> > This way the "Add" button is back in a global menu, not in a
menu
that
> >> is
> >> > contextual to the page, yet it stays very visible. In addition to
> this,
> >> > since "Create wiki" is visible only to authorized users,
it's not
too
> >> much
> >> > in the way. Last item: this solves the issue of having the
"Edit"
and
>> >> "More
>> >> > actions" buttons separated from one another.
>> >> >
>> >> > WDYT?
>> >>
>> >> Sounds the best to me! :) I never really liked the move of the >
>> button in the page contextual menu (doesn’t make sense to me).
> >>
> >> FYI here’s what they have for:
> >> - confluence:
> >>
>
>
>> - jira:
> >>
>
>> >>
>> >> Thanks
>> >> -Vincent
>> >>
>> >> > Guillaume
>> >> > ᐧ
>> >> >
>> >> > On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 9:12 AM, Eduard Moraru wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:37 PM, Guillaume Lerouge
>> >> > > wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > Hi,
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 3:28 PM, Ecaterina Moraru
(Valica) <
>> >> > > > valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:24 PM, Guillaume Lerouge
<
>> >> > > > > me(a)guillaumelerouge.com>
>> >> > > > > wrote:
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > > Hi,
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 3:08 PM, Ecaterina
Moraru
(Valica)
<
>> >> > > > > > valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 3:48 PM,
Guillaume Lerouge <
>> >> > > > > guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
>> >> > > > > > > wrote:
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > Hi Marius,
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 3:54 PM,
Marius Dumitru
Florea
<
>> >> > > > > > > > mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 1:58
PM, Guillaume Lerouge
<
>
>> > > > > > > guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> >> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > > Hi again,
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 12:39
PM, Guillaume
> >> "Louis-Marie"
> >> > > > > > Delhumeau <
> >> > > > > > > > > > gdelhumeau(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > >> Hi Eddy,
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> 2014-09-25 11:59 GMT+02:00
Eduard Moraru <
> >> > > > enygma2002(a)gmail.com
> >> > > > > >:
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > Hi devs,
> >> > > > > > > > > >> >
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > I`m not sure if we
already have a discussion
> started
> >> on
> >> > > this
> >> > > > > > > topic,
> >> > > > > > > > > but
> >> > > > > > > > > >> in
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > my opinion, it's
long overdue. I see people
start
>> >> being
>> >> > > > > confused
>> >> > > > > > > and
>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > questions like
this [1] start to be asked.
>> >> > > > > > > > > >> >
>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > The new location
of the Add menu in Flamingo >> >> > > problematic
>> >> > > > > IMO
>> >> > > > > > > for
>> >> > > > > > > > a
>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > various number of
reasons:
>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > - It falsely
gives the impression that it adds
>> >> > > page-related
>> >> > > > > > > entries
>> >> > > > > > > > > (i.e.
>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > related to the
current page), due to its
current
>> >> location
>> >> > > > > (i.e.
>> >> > > > > > in
>> >> > > > > > > > the
>> >> > > > > > > > > >> page
>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > content)
>> >> > > > > > > > > >> > - It conflicts
with AWM`s "Add new Entry"
button
>> >> > > > > > >
> > >>
>> >> > > > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > > > More generally speaking,
this is true for a lot
of
>
>> > > livetables.
> >> > > > We
> >> > > > > > > would
> >> > > > > > > > > > need a generic
"Create" button to be available
when we
>> >> > > > > instantiate
>> >> > > > > > a
>> >> > > > > > > > > > livetable. This could be
useful for the wiki >
>> page, for
> >> > > > the
> >> > > > > > user
> >> > > > > > > > > > directory, for all the AWM
homepages...
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > I guess you like the files live
table from the File
> >> Manager
> >> > > then
> >> > > > :)
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >>
>
>> >> > > > > > >
> > . Would be interesting to have such a toolbar (with
>> >> support for
>> >> > > > > > custom
>> >> > > > > > > > > buttons) before the live table
don't you think?
>> >> > > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > IMO the toolbar's functionality is
already covered by
the
>> >> > > 'Actions'
>> >> > > > > > column
>> >> > > > > > > in the livetable. The only thing missing
is the
'Create'
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > I'm not sure this is the same use case. I
can see at
least
3
didn't
> >> reasons
> >> > > > why:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > IMO it's exactly the same use case, the only
difference is
that
>> >> the
>> >> > > > Actions
>> >> > > > > column was used as an intermediate solution because
we > had
> >> bulk
> >> > > > > actions in livetable (the ability to make multiple
entity
> >> selection
> >> > > > > (checkbox) - that's why we duplicate the entries on
each
row).
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Great, this means that we agree on the fact that the
>> >> column
>> >> > > > should be replaced by a "Select" column with
checkboxes in
it,
and
be
> >> also
> >> > > > that Marius' horizontal livetable toolbar should be
expanded
to be
>> >> used
>> >> > > in
>> >> > > > a generic fashion by all livetables :-)
>> >> > > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Not completely replaced because not all operations/actions
can >> >> performed
>> >> > > in bulk fashion. Take the 'edit' action and notice
that it is a
>> single
>> >> > > element action compared to 'delete'.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > A different situation exists for the 'rename' action
since it
is
> more
> >> of a
> >> > > single element action, but can be presented as a bulk action as
well
>> >> if you
>> >> > > provide some kind of renaming template like '_'.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > In other words, both the bulk operations toolbar and the
>> >> column
>> >> > > have their right place in the livetable IMO and having a
checkbox
>> >> column
>> >> > > like Marius did for the FM livetable looks like the right way
to
go.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Thanks,
>> >> > > Eduard
>> >> > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Guillaume
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > > Thanks,
>> >> > > > > Caty
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > 1/ The "create" button would
generate a new entry,
whereas
the
actions
> >> > > > "actions"
> >> > > > > > column is for actions that are related to
individual
entries
>> >> that
>> >> > > > already
>> >> > > > > > exist
>> >> > > > > > 2/ The "actions" column can be
removed by the livetable
>> creator
>> >> > > > > > 3/ The toolbar would also be useful to handle
bulk on
it
> >> pages
> >> > > > such
> >> > > > > as
> >> > > > > > "delete selected entries" (as in the file
manager)
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Best,
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Guillaume
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > > > > Caty
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Yes and yes :-)
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Guillaume
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > Basically the button would let
the user create a
new
> >> item of
> >> > > > the
> >> > > > > > same
> >> > > > > > > > > type
> >> > > > > > > > > > than the items displayed in the
livetable. Right
now
> we
> >> do
> >> > > this
> >> > > > > in
> >> > > > > > an
> >> > > > > > > > > > ad-hoc fashion, so it would be
great to have a
generic
> >> > > > solution.
> >> > > > > > It's
> >> > > > > > > > > also
> >> > > > > > > > > > related to the automatic page
name generation
module
>> >> (that we
>> >> > > > > don't
>> >> > > > > > > > have
>> >> > > > > > > > > in
>> >> > > > > > > > > > the core yet, though
there's an extensions doing >
>> > > > > > > > > > <
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >>
>
>
>> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > ).
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > Guillaume
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > - from my POV, looking
at the page from a far,
the
> >> new
> >> > > > > location
> >> > > > > > > > looks
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > completely randomly
selected:
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > -- It's not on the
left/top (as left-to-right
> >> language
> >> > > > > specific
> >> > > > > > > > brains
> >> > > > > > > > > >> are
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > trained to follow)
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > -- it's not
exactly at the top either
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > -- it's not at the
right
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > -- it's not next
to the type of elements it
creates
> >> (i.e.
> >> > > > next
> >> > > > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > WIKI/SPACE/PAGE)
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > -- it basically is
almost in the middle of the
> screen
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > - etc. (i.e. others
that don`t come right now
to my
> >> mind)
> >> > > > > > > > > >> >
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> Personally, I like the fact
that it is located
near
> >> the Edit
> >> > > > > > button,
> >> > > > > > > > > even
> >> > > > > > > > > >> if it does not concern the
current page. Because
it
>> >> groups
>> >> > > the
>> >> > > > > > most
>> >> > > > > > > > > basic
>> >> > > > > > > > > >> and useful actions
that you need when you want >
>> > > contribute:
> >> > > > > > EDIT,
> >> > > > > > > > ADD.
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> To me, it makes sense.
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > > > >> >
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > I`d like to open a
discussion on this, since
it's
> >> quite an
> >> > > > > > > important
> >> > > > > > > > > >> aspect
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > of the UI and, due to
it's shiny green color
(which
> >> I like
> >> > > > > :)),
> >> > > > > > > it`s
> >> > > > > > > > > hard
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > to miss.
> >> > > > > > > > > >> >
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > Is it just me
who's resistant to change, or do
> >> others see
> >> > > a
> >> > > > > > > problem
> >> > > > > > > > > here
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > with this as well?
> >> > > > > > > > > >> >
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > Thanks,
> >> > > > > > > > > >> > Eduard
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> devs mailing list
> >> devs(a)xwiki.org
> >> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Guillaume Delhumeau (gdelhumeau(a)xwiki.com)
> > Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
> > Committer on the XWiki.org project
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Guillaume Delhumeau (gdelhumeau(a)xwiki.com)
> Research & Development Engineer at XWiki SAS
> Committer on the XWiki.org project
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> devs(a)xwiki.org
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
--
Denis Gervalle
SOFTEC sa - CEO
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