18 Sep
2015
18 Sep
'15
1:58 p.m.
On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
Hi Edy,
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Yes, that was a bug caused by a limitation of the initial implementation.
It`s now fixed by http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-12592 and will be
included in the 7.2 final release.
Thanks,
Eduard
Hi Guillaume,
You propose a single top level/root document, but no top level space. How
does that fit into XWiki`s model? What is the reference of this root
document? "xwiki:.WebHome", "xwiki:.", ? How do we interact with it?
Also,
is a random xwiki:Space.Page document supposed to
be a child of this
implicit root document?
Indeed, I'm probably (widely!) underestimating the amount of work needed to
make something like this work and the impact. The reference of the "top
homepage" would indeed have to be something like "xwiki:." (or even just
"[[]]"!).
What we currently do is that we have the Main
Wiki > Current Wiki > Top
Level Document > Child Document > Child Document hierarchy. The link to
"Current Wiki" goes to whatever the homepage is configured to be. This
does
not mean that the linked document is the parent
of "Top Level Document".
The parent of "Top Level Document" is the wiki "Current Wiki". The
homepage
of that wiki may be different, but that does not
make the homepage
document
a parent of the "Top Level Document".
Actually you have 2 hierarchies, not one:
- Main Wiki > Top Level Document in the main wiki > Child Document >
Child Document hierarchy
- Main Wiki > Sub-Wiki > Top Level Document > Child Document > Child
Document hierarchy
Which means that there are 2 different types of entities that can live
under "Main Wiki" => it feels to me like a bit of a consistency issue, but
we can't really avoid it at the moment.
If you consider the homepage of the wiki as the
parent of top level
documents, you will end up creating pages in the "Blog" space, as Marius
exemplified above, because the wiki admin wanted the "Blog" spaces
(Nested
Document) to be the homepage for his personalized
wiki.
No, since my point of view on this is that we shouldn't even allow the home
page to be changed to begin with :-)
We want to allow more configuration in contrast
to requiring more
code/content change (which would be the alternative when enforcing a
fixed
homepage document).
Why is that? Why not keep the homepage where it is and let the user put a
{{display}} macro there if needed? I don't really understand the rationale
behind this. Changing the content of the homepage it very easy (one click
on the "Edit" button)...
I`m trying to focus more on the actual impact of this, since IMO it's
better to make a slight effort in understanding
why something happens
and,
once understood, you either agree with it or live
with it, but in both
cases you don`t suffer from the side effect caused by a possible solution
that would be easier to understand but had an unwanted effect.
Actually the current behavior suits me well overall. The only gripe I have
is with the special treatment when creating pages from the home page. You
can see even see it: when you click on the create button from the home,
first the parent displays "Home" then you have a quick flickering as it
gets hidden in Javascript...
Now I understand that it's better to start with less changes and add things
only as needed. We'll see how things goes.
location
I
mean?
Imagine
exactly
should
it
wiki's
the
> > fact
> > >> > that the top page is the same.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > > The effort is to try to avoid the situation where a regular
user
more
page
the
keep
> > both
> > >> > when the icon would be enough?
> > >> >
> > >> > Thanks,
> > >> >
> > >> > Guillaume
> > >> >
> > >> > WDYT? (interested in more opinions on this since I've already
had
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
I`m curious how this turns out in practice.
So am I! I guess we'll see when additional user feedback start coming in
:-)
Best,
Guillaume
Thanks,
Eduard
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 5:30 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
icon,
Hi Marius,
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea <
mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
> Hi Guillaume,
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:26 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Caty,
> >
> > thanks for your message. Please see my answers below.
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> > valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> The current behavior was reached after many discussions.
> >>
> >
> > I understand. However, I only got the time to actually try and test
XE
> > 7.2
> > > last week. And based on what Edy said, I'm not the only one who was
> > > surprised by the current behavior :-)
> > >
> > >
> > >> Currently the concept of main wiki is expressed as the 'home'
but
> is
> >> not tied to a particular space. This is something we preserved and
is
> > >> flexible enough for users with custom content to change the > of
> > the
> > >> homepage or assigned a different space, for a different subwiki.
> > >>
> > >
> > > I understand this. I'm not questioning the current behavior, but
the
> > > underlying assumption. Given the
new paradigm we're implementing
with
> > > nested spaces, why would an user
want to change the location of the
> > > homepage? To me, it's like saying that you would want the top level
> > folder
> > > on your computer to be something else than the hard drive itself. I
> don't
> > > understand why that would be useful.
> >
> > The hard-drive is the wiki not the Main space. Or, if you want to be
> > precise, the entire farm is the hard-drive, a wiki is a partition on
> > that hard-drive and a space is a folder on a partition. The Main
space
> > is just one of the top level
"folders". Blog, XWiki, Sandbox are also
> > at the top level. And you can create new top level "folders". When
you
> > access XWiki you get redirected to the
Main space by default but
> > someone may want the Blog space to be opened by default.
> >
> > >
> > > Do you have specific use cases in mind that I might be missing
(other
> > than
> > > "this feature existed before")?
> > >
> > > Also we needed to showcase differently spaces that are top level,
vs.
> > pages
> > >> inside the Main space, while having the limited number of
exceptions
> > >> created for the breadcrumb.
> > >>
> > >
> > > I think there are 2 separate problems here:
> > >
> >
> > > 1. Where should we put all of the pages that are currently in
the
> > "Main"
> > > space if we decide that not all of them deserve to be top-level
> pages
> >
> > Pages from the Main space are not top level. Main is top level, and
> > Main is on the same level with Blog, Sandbox and XWiki. Check the
> > document index tree. I have the feeling you're making a confusion.
> >
>
> I am making an intentional confusion because I think that this is how
> end-users are going to perceive it too. I think I understand well
enough
> XWiki's current model, the reason why
there's a Main space to begin
with
and the
fact that it's just a space among others, not a top-level space
by
itself.
However, we cannot expect that level of implicit knowledge from a fresh
new
> user. As a new user, I'm on "Main", which to me is the top level page,
create a
new page, and it's created next to Main, not under it. That
doesn't fit with my mental model of how nested pages should work. That
new
> page should be under Main, not at the same level. Do you see what I
As pointed out by Caty, I also understand that there are technical
limitations that explain this behavior and that it's tough to overcome
them
in the short amount of time that we have as part
of the 7.2 release
timeframe. We'll most likely have to keep the current behavior and live
with it for a while. But I know for sure that it is going to create
confusion for some end users, the same way it did for me :-)
Thanks,
Guillaume
management
> of
> > > your wiki.
> > >
> > > I'm discussing the answer for 2. below.
> > >
> > > Also I wouldn't like that all the URL contain the word 'Main'
2. Making it possible to have top-level pages
in a coherent manner
>
> For 1., pages in the Main space could stay where they are for now.
"Main"
> > would be the legacy space where we put useful tools for the > > that
> > >> besides the 'xwiki/bin/view/' we would need to also contain
the
> homepage
> > >> space?
> > >
> > >
> > > My very point is that the home page wouldn't (shouldn't?) need to
be
> > > "Main". It would be
"". IE, there would be nothing in the URL to
> reflect
> > > it. It would be a representation of the wiki itself.
> > >
> > > I understand that technically this is not feasible right now and
that
we
the
> > > whole wiki. That level would be the top level space (which is > *need* to have a specific page be the home
page, which is the role
played
> by Main.WebHome. What I'm saying is that
with the new system, I'd
rather
> > have *.../xwiki/bin/view/WebHome => **.../xwiki/bin/view/ *would be > > what
> > > has been implemented by the way). Do you see what I mean?
> > >
> > >
> > >> Although we have a convention that a certain page is displayed as
> > >> homepage, this is not needed to be in the URL. 'home' icon is
a
link
for
> >> the homepage, not a physical location. Currently the 'Main' space
can
> >> contain pages useful for the
display of the homepage, but is an
> 'optional'
> >> space.
> >>
> >
> > What I' suggesting is precisely that the home page be its own
document
> at
> > > the very top of the hierarchy, ABOVE what is currently known as
> > > Main.WebHome. This is why while the user is on this page, she see
> > only the home icon.
> >
> > Is this making what I mean clearer? I'm just suggesting we push
things
> > one
> > > step further in the direction that has already been established.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Guillaume
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >> Caty
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Guillaume Lerouge <
> > guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Hi Edy,
> > >> >
> > >> > thanks for the explanation. Please see my feedback below.
> > >> >
> > >> > On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Eduard Moraru <
> enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > Hi,
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Yes, "this is not a bug, it's a feature!" :) I
had documented in
> a
> >> > small
> >> > > paragraph [1] (see the note) but did not feel it was worthy to
be
> > >> > mentioned
> > >> > > in the release notes. Please feel free to rephrase if
needed.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > It's not specifically about "Main", but about
the current > > >> homepage
> > >> > > (and "Main.WebHome" is the default homepage that
can be
changed
from
> >> > > administration).
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > Does this feature (changing the home page) still makes sense in
the
>>
context
>> > of nested spaces? What is the point to define the home page as
>> ".../A/B/C"
>> > when based on the new system, "C" is a sub-sub page?
>> >
>> > To me, with nested spaces the home page is always the same and
cannot
> be
> >> > changed. You may want to add a redirect, but this doesn't change
lands
>> on
>> > > the homepage of the wiki (just accessed the wiki or maybe he
clicked
> >> the
> >> > > logo) and wants to create a document. He enters the title and
> presses
> >> > > "create". Obviously his intention was to create a page,
and, > often
> >> > > than not (IMO at least), his actual intention was to create a
top
> level
> >> > > document and not a child document of the wiki's current
homepage.
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> > I agree with this. However, in that case, shouldn't the home
be
expected
in
> >> simply
> >> > *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/* instead of
> >> > *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/* ?
> >> >
> >> > Using short URLs, you could even have the home page under
*https://
> >> > <server>/
> >> > *and then subpages at *https://<server>/A, **https://
<server>/A/B*
and
>> so
>> > on. This would be in line with what most CMS do and it would fix
your
> >> > issue: any page created from the home is a sub-page at the > >> level.
> >> >
> >> > Image the homepage gets changed to
"Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage".
> >> > > Without this
"trick", a regular user would end up, by mistake
IMO
> > (and
> > >> by
> > >> > > using the "next-next-next" mindset), creating the
document
> > >> > > "Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage.NewDocument".
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> > As I said above, I actually think we should remove this feature
the
> >> > context of nested spaces.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > Even if the homepage remains the default one, I see no logical
> reason
> >> in
> >> > > spamming all the new documents with the "Main" prefix,
the
result
> > being
> > >> > an
> > >> > > artificially deeper hierarchy and longer URL.
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> > Agreed. As mentioned above, ideally we'd remove it.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > > If a user really intended to create a document as a child of
> > >> homepage
> > >> > > (rare usecase IMO), he has all the tools in the UI to simply
do
> so.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I agree that it's a minor consistency dent, but IMO the
benefit
> > >> justifies
> > >> > > it.
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> > I don't quite agree that it's minor. One of the implied
goals of
> > nested
> > >> > spaces is to be able to have consistent URL naming (I know
exactly
> > where
> > >> > page *https://<server>/A/B/C *is). Having a special case
for
Main
breaks
>> > this.
>> >
>> > Similarly, when on the home page on the main wiki, I don't
understand
> why
> >> > the breadcrumb shows both the "home" icon and
"Home" text. Why 2
http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Features/DocumentLifecycle#HByusin…
>>
> > eyebrows raised on this topic :) )
>> > >
>> > > Thanks,
>> > > Eduard
>> > >
>> > > ---------
>> > > [1]
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
> > >> guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> > >> > > wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Hi Devs,
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > I started trying out XE 7.2 (SNAPSHOT from around 12:30
today)
> > and I
> > >> > was
> > >> > > > very impressed, the changes look quite good!
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > While playing with it, I had a question about how the
"Main"
> > space is
> > >> > > > handled. Here's what I did: from
.../xwiki/bin/view/Main/, I
> > clicked
> > >> > the
> > >> > > > "create" button and created a sub page, then
a sub-sub page.
> > Here's
> > >> > what
> > >> > > I
> > >> > > > got:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > - .../xwiki/bin/view/SubPage/SubSubPage
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Although I was expecting this:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > - .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/SubPage/SubSubPage
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > So I was wondering whether this was the expected
behavior,
and
>
>> whether
> >> > it
> >> > > > had been discussed before?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Congrats & Thanks,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Guillaume