Hi, On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 15:39, Ecaterina Valica <valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights2Proposal#HI… It took me a little time to understand but now that I get it I think it can be a powerful model. Nice work :-) To recap: - "View / Comment / Edit / Delete" are grouped under "Page rights" -> that disturbed me at first because "page rights" is used for 2 things -> rights related to page actions AND rights at page level -> maybe there should be a different naming for both - I like a lot the fact that inherited rights are displayed at all levels - The "Containing Spaces" part of the page is a bit confusing -> could you elaborate on what it is?

Guillaume -- Guillaume Lerouge Product Manager - XWiki SAS Skype: wikibc Twitter: glerouge http://guillaumelerouge.com/ _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

Hi Caty, On May 10, 2010, at 3:39 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights2Proposal#HI… Some comments/questions: * Lots of things to like: inheritance, "simulation", not having to cycle through rights, autosuggest, etc * A bit hard to understand initially (I'm not sure I fully understand yet :)) * Not sure it's scalable. In the future applications/components will be able to register new rights. The proposed UI may not be the best fit for this. A single tabular view for all rights would probably fit better, possibly with a category selector if we want to keep the proposed categories (admin rights vs register rights vs page rights vs programming rights). In any case we need to think about rights scalability.

* Not sure I understand the "containing spaces/pages" UI. Should the "contain" table header be "Space" (or "Page") instead? Is it a "simulation" to see the rights for a given space or page?

* In the page level view: "creator" and "administrators" is another way of viewing the information on the left right? (not very clear to me)

* Probably not going to happen but if there are lots of admins, listing all admins on the right will not scale.

* Is it planned that the user profile page will also show what the user has access to?

* How are right modifications saved? A big problem with the current UI is that there's no save action and a lot of modifications are done unitarily leading to lots of events sent + hard to rollback as a consequence.

* How does it work? For example, imagine a space with no rights at all. I then click allow for the view rights for the admin group for ex. What happens? Does it immediately refresh all views and put a "x" in for all other groups and users not in the admin group?

General comment: * It looks powerful but complex Good work. Let's fine tune this. Thanks -Vincent _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 15:39, Ecaterina Valica <valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights2Proposal#HI… How do you give rights to users/groups from main wiki when you are in a subwiki in this UI ?

-- Thomas Mortagne _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

Hi, I've reviewed some of your feedback and added them to Rights Management UI Proposal *VERSION 3*: *Partial Prototype* - Wiki Level: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights3Wiki - Space Level: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights3Space - Page Level: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights3Page *Desired Interaction* - http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights3Proposal Thanks, Caty

_______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 17:08, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com wrote: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights3Space Nice indeed, but I do not understand how it could fits with current implementation. were and I do not see any inherited information anymore.

So, proposal 3 seems less interesting than proposal 2. I do not see what it solves based on previous comments either. Caty, could you explain further your goals with this proposal ?

Denis which -- Denis Gervalle SOFTEC sa - CEO eGuilde sarl - CTO _______________________________________________ users mailing list users(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users

On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 12:39, Ecaterina Valica <valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote: affectation. they from http://localhost:8084/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights3Proposal/addU6… Thanks for these precision, I have better understand your idea. (Personally I have some difficulties with colors (partially color blind), so information based on colors is not always easy for me.)

what they have future I completely agree that proposal 3 is clearer. The problem is that your samples and the structure of this proposal are really far from current implementation. Proposal 2 were fitting better but the samples where also not realistic and remarks from Thomas about global wiki users should also be integrated.

So, I am puzzle by your goals here. Aren't we going too fast ? Since there is very poor documentation about the way XWiki rights works (I would be happy to improve that, but it will require some time), I have the impression that there is a important misunderstanding of how inheritance is effectively applied. So the design of a proper UI is not easy. I have also read the draft of Sergiu that aims to improve the documentation, but either I have not understand it or it does not describe current behavior. So the question is for me, are we designing this UI to think about future possibilities or to replace the current UI ?

Denis -- Denis Gervalle SOFTEC sa - CEO eGuilde sarl - CTO _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 16:33, Ecaterina Valica <valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote: valicac(a)gmail.com http://localhost:8084/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights3Proposal/addU6… (he I I think that could be nice to have more visual than color information for inheritance. The way it was in proposal 2 was fine, since this was more intensity than color. And I will be pleased to be your candidate. Be careful that using icons for representing specific rights could add complexity when (later) components add new rights dynamically. that can use. want. http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights3Proposal#HN… inheritance future if some of Well, this precisely the grouping of right that is a big change. Currently, right are inherit individually, not as a group. Moreover, the inheritance is a little bit particular, since allowing a given right at lower level, will deny that same right for anybody else even if this right is allowed at a higher level. Said another way, once an allowance for a given right has been found and you are not part of it, you are denied. Of course, there is an exception to this rules regarding global admin rights, these ones are evaluated before and gets priority. I would agree if you find this to be not the correct way of evaluating right, but this is the way it works since the beginning. There is also an option to evaluate rights based on a hierarchy of spaces, but this one is usually disabled. It will probably be revived when such hierarchy of space are bring back using the new reference model. So, I am convinced that current right management is poor, but changing it will require important changes, and time. Hope you get a better idea of my concerns. For detailled information on how rights are processed, you may want to have a look at http://dev.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Drafts/XWikiRightServiceReversed. This is really bare documentation of the code, but it tells the truths.

Denis -- Denis Gervalle SOFTEC sa - CEO eGuilde sarl - CTO _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

A small variation for Version 3 http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights3AProposal Changes: - improved the display of inheritance of rights within a role description; - emphasize the display of "Inherited"|"Allow"|"Deny" by using color and icon representation. For Rights version 4 I'll remove the concept of Role.

Thanks, Caty On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 15:30, Ecaterina Valica <valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights3Proposal http://localhost:8084/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights3Proposal/addU6… a components it. the UI integrated. http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights3Proposal#HN… have have add convincing version an is space it _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

Hi, Changes: - One additional column is added: "Default / Inherited Rights", by default all rights appear in this column - By using drag'n'drop items are tossed around between "Allow rights", "Deny rights" and "Default / Inherited Rights" Rights Proposal 4: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights4Proposal Wiki Prototype: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights4Wiki Space Prototype: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights4Space This proposal is done by using feedback provided by Roman Muntyanu and Raluca Morosan. Thanks, Caty _______________________________________________ users mailing list users(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users

On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 21:42, Alex Busenius <alex.busenius(a)xwiki.com Big Icons: We are using Silk set for our icons and this is constraining. Also, Rights version 3-4 were made having rights extensibility in mind, for use cases like adding "captchaComment" right, or "annotate" right, or "applicationXusage" right .... so I don't think is very good if applications are gonna have to choose their custom icon to represent their custom right, because is gonna be a mess in the UI. There are few possible icons to choose from (in order to keep the look&feel unitary) and having the developers choose their own icon for the right they extend is gonna break the UI consistency. I think is much easier, extensible and less visual cryptic to textual describe an extensible right. Placed side by side: Version 4 takes a lot of space, yes, but the problem with side by side is that is less readable (harder to scan the rights order). Also it's easier to have a bigger area to select when you want to drag an item. Thanks Alex for your feedback, Caty rights", http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights4Proposal _______________________________________________ users mailing list users(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users

The inheritance is a little bit particular, since allowing a given right at lower level, will deny that same right for anybody else even if this right is allowed at a higher level.

Hi, Did: - source of inheritance is per rights; - local source of inheritance: if the a right is allowed to anyone else at the same level, it is implicitly disallowed for any others; - inheritance from upper levels / groups. Please see if I put the rights correctly: Wiki Level: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights41Wiki Space Level: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights41Space Obs. Summary view + icons not done yet. Thanks, Caty On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 11:31, Denis Gervalle <dgl(a)softec.lu> wrote:

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 09:57, Ecaterina Valica <valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote: right Changing this is not hard, but it will increase complexity since we will need a backward compatibility mode for existing wikis. someone I really do not know, and I am curious as well. give I completely agree, this is poor. I think is a problem of how the Groups are perceived. Only as a rights We should not decide this, since groups maybe synchronized from external system (ie LDAP), imposing groups for rights is not correct. By the way, groups may contains groups, but I am almost sure that this will work properly in practice. allow view It is not logical for me and I imagine many others ! in should IMO, XWiki 3.0 should have a complete rework of the right service implementation, and breaks with the past. Since this will cause many migration issue, I am not in favor of progressive changes, and I would prefer to see a big single change that fix this, and also the current discussion on script rights. Denis Rights should be inherited from upper level and should affect only the wrote: I that mention we all proposal understanding to because drag same is for alex.busenius(a)xwiki.com why, ASCII-art): -------------------+-------------------------------------+--+------ > >> > > Unregistered users | [+V] [+C] [+R] [-D] [-A] [-P] [-CC] | | [-E] > >> > Big Icons: > >> > We are using Silk set for our icons and this is constraining. Also, > >> Rights > >> > version 3-4 were made having rights extensibility in mind, for use > cases > >> > like adding "captchaComment" right, or "annotate" right, or > >> > "applicationXusage" right .... so I don't think is very good if > >> > applications > >> > are gonna have to choose their custom icon to represent their custom > >> right, > >> > because is gonna be a mess in the UI. > >> > > >> > There are few possible icons to choose from (in order to keep the > >> look&feel > >> > unitary) and having the developers choose their own icon for the right textual side > >> is > >> > that is less readable (harder to scan the rights order). Also it's > >> easier > >> > to > >> > have a bigger area to select when you want to drag an item. > >> > > >> > Thanks Alex for your feedback, > >> > Caty > >> > > >> > > > >> > > Alex > >> > > On 05/21/2010 07:51 PM, Ecaterina Valica wrote: > >> > > > Hi, > >> > > > > >> > > > Changes: > >> > > > > >> > > > - One additional column is added: "Default / Inherited Rights", Muntyanu -- Denis Gervalle SOFTEC sa - CEO eGuilde sarl - CTO _______________________________________________ users mailing list users(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users

On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 17:53, Ecaterina Valica <valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote: Sorry: link for Wiki is http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights42Wiki management is Marketing, means wiki rights just tasks, mind and http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights41Wiki wrote: default), rights So common more the in or allowed there level a Also, use it's http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights4Proposal http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights4Wiki _______________________________________________ users mailing list users(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/users

On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 10:03, Denis Gervalle <dgl(a)softec.lu> wrote: the Fixed: thanks. Made some screenshots with how it suppose to look like: - Wiki: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… - Space: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… changing right I had your vision (changing rights in summary mode) in mind when I started prototyping. Let me show you some versions: V1_space) First version took the exact order from the extended view (first Allow, second Deny rights) http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… + this version lets the user drag its right to the appropriate column +- has the same representation as the extended version --- there is no scanability: if I want to see the status of "delete" right for different groups/users I have to search for them (making me dizzy :P ) + there is no gapping space between rights V2_space) Tried to fix the dizziness by providing same order/position for rights http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… +- this version lets the user drag its right to the appropriate column, but the user has not control over the position he choose to drop the target: the right will appear on the column it's suppose to be +- doesn't have the same representation as the extended version (allowed/denied order broke, determined order present) + scanability: it's easy to scan for the searched column/position - gap space between rights: ex. evalica-DenyDelete: some users might not like that gap and may not understand why is there (is it a bug?) See also: V2_wiki) http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… V2_wiki_expanded) http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… As you see in V2) has the same functionality as the expanded version. The main benefit is that is occupying less space, but we still need the expanded view for the Inherited/detailed information for each right. The down side of version 2 http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… is that if I want to *summarize *a global state for a given right (ex see for what users 'delete' is allowed/denied) at a global level, not at a group/user level, the same dizziness effect appears (I have to search for 'delete' right in three columns, for all the users) V3) is the current proposal, it compresses the 3 column spread information in one view. http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… - this version doesn't lets the user drag its right to the appropriate column +- doesn't have the same representation as the extended version + scanability: it's easy to scan for the searched column/position at a * global* level + there is no gapping space between rights V3_wiki) http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… is equivalent to V2_wiki) http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… I prefer V3) over V2): + Summary does what is suppose to: give a global summary of existing rights, without being concerned of the type of the right (inherited, locally allowed, locally denied) + Good Readability +/- Doesn't allow rights to be dragged around. I prefer changing rights in expanded mode because there you also have more information, like source of the inheritance + 3 columns. Being compact it's easier to understand the "local source of inheritance" for a given right. For example, allowing "view" right for 'evalica' will deny it for 'unregistered users' and 'registered users'. Being on the same column is easier to look for the change and see it in action (being highlighted). http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… Please tell me what you think about this rationale. It would be great if you have ideas about how to make the summary being draggable, but also keeping scanability and less gaps. Thanks, Caty wrote: http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights42Space view. given ways. order rights implementation him longer they this, the valicac(a)gmail.com> anyone to denied. a user colspan again deny level. be | for if side http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights4Proposal http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights4Space _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

Hi Denis, I want to thank you again for all the help you are giving :P

Please take a look at a proposal for "V3 and my 3)" version with elements from Rights2 :) http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal and in "action" http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Space

The prototype is not reflecting the "desired" interaction: both inherited info and rights change appear on hover (right icon and arrow), instead of hover | click.

That "v" needs to be an arrow like the one we use in the action menus. On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 19:06, Denis Gervalle <dgl(a)softec.lu> wrote: basic profile), This is a signal that extended rights ... http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal#H…

and stay http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights43Proposal#H… The problem with this icons (taken from Silk) is that there is little difference for View, Comment, Admin icons between the two states (inherited, locally set) - but this is something we can easily improve (by changing the icons and looking for some more contrast). Example: This is how they look when all rights are set locally (full color) http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights43Propos… The other mockup versions (like http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights41Space) used v/x for the allow/deny representation, and yes, I agree that they are more suited than +/-. The problem is that we are using in XWiki, X to represent delete, so having two xX was too much, that's why I introduced +/-. Maybe we can find another solution.

for the drag/drop will being or added is unexpected it. a Other problem that this proposal has is the representation of "advanced rights". If we don't like the textual description and we want to add icons, IMO we have two solutions: A) use the same abstract icon, but with different color, ex. a key or lock icon with color representation ("blue" for "programming", "green" for "captchaComment", etc) - the problem here is for the people that have some kind color blindness and will not distinguish between some color tones (this is the case when we gonna have lots of "advanced" | non default rights) B) use the same abstract icon and with an order index (like numbers 1, 2, etc or characters A, B, etc) These representations are based on the fact that "advanced rights" will be added by other developers and the icon will not be custom made for a specif right.

Another thing we need to consider for this proposal is how the filtering is gonna be made.

wrote: see http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… :P for http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… column, http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… see for http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… appropriate a http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… inheritance" will http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/download/Improvements/Rights4Proposa… if ways level give the leave compact have service only http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights41Space dgl(a)softec.lu> proposal used for but is without this: right per is user/group when would [-CC] mind, or cryptic item. http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights4Proposal http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights4Wiki _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 09:57, Ecaterina Valica<valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote: Changing this is not hard, but it will increase complexity since we will need a backward compatibility mode for existing wikis. I really do not know, and I am curious as well.

I completely agree, this is poor. I think is a problem of how the Groups are perceived. Only as a rights We should not decide this, since groups maybe synchronized from external system (ie LDAP), imposing groups for rights is not correct. By the way, groups may contains groups, but I am almost sure that this will work properly in practice. It is not logical for me and I imagine many others ! IMO, XWiki 3.0 should have a complete rework of the right service implementation, and breaks with the past. Since this will cause many migration issue, I am not in favor of progressive changes, and I would prefer to see a big single change that fix this, and also the current discussion on script rights.

Denis Rights should be inherited from upper level and should affect only the > user/group where a change is made, not make some complicated implications > at > other levels and groups. > > Thanks, > Caty

IMO, RegisteredUsers is a special case. Imagine RegisteredUsers as a Wiki, and GroupA as a Space; and have the same level of appliance for groups (page-space-wiki, where space rights override wiki rights).

So if I deny All and allow A, semantically A will have allow, because the tie will be broken by level. Just a thought. Caty > > Attempt 2. Hm, how could this be done? Denying to everybody is not an > option... So, allow the view right to A, and automagically everybody > else is denied. Great, XWiki really rocks! > > This is not a very valid use case, but more like a necessity. When > designing the current rights mechanism, a lot of not-entirely-compatible > use cases had to be balanced, and the outcome doesn't cleanly satisfy > all use cases, but it tries to make each scenario possible one way or > another. >

Hi, On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 11:03, Ecaterina Valica <valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote: UI http://incubator.myxwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Improvements/Rights3Proposal I like the separation between rights definition and rights affectation. Only downside -> inherited rights are displayed less clearly than what they were in version 2. Also, a drop-down might be better than an autosuggest when selecting which right should be added to a role.

Guillaume -- Guillaume Lerouge Product Manager - XWiki SAS Skype: wikibc Twitter: glerouge http://guillaumelerouge.com/ _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs