Hi Caty, Thanks for the design page! Some remarks: * For Sol2 do you mean you just display the parent and not the full hierarchy? So for example for A.B.C.D.WebHome you’d display parent = D only? Thus sol2 wouldn’t allow to understand the location of a page. * My preference goes to Sol3 with the full hierarchy displayed and with a filter allowing to search in either the page name/title and/or the hierarchy. It should solve the 3 listed UCs * We could imagine variations of sol3 depending on the use case by showing/hiding the hierarchy and if hidden then it would be shown on hover (but the filter should allow to filter on it) * I think we need to work on the filter UI so that it allows to search only on the name+title or only on the hierarchy or on both. It could be 2 filter fields or one field that searches on all with options (as in google search or solr search) to specify to search only in the title, only in the page name, only in the hierarchy: -title:xxx, +title:xxx, +name=xxx, -name:xxx, +location:xxx, -location:xxx), etc. * If we display page titles, we’ll need to implement that famous title cache we’ve been wanting to have for such a long time now… ;) http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-1253 Thanks -Vincent On 2 Jul 2015 at 00:04:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (valicac@gmail.com(mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote: > Hi, > > I've added some ideas on how to display 'Space' column in the AllDocs page: > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/NestedLivetable > > Let me know what you think and if there are other ideas. > > Thanks, > Caty

wrote:

wrote:

Nice work. However, something stroke me when reading that, why do we still want livetable with nested? The tree seems the best way to represent hierarchical structure of documents (as you say in sol4) so I'm not sure to understand the real reason to try to keep a livetable and not completely drop it and focus on tree view. OK, that is my opinion.

Now, to talk about your proposition, I guess sol2 or sol3 are fine (I would go more for sol3). For another solution, maybe you could mixin sol3 with a bit of sol1. Let me explain. Use Sol3 but instead of displaying only parent, display the minify breadcrumb. And fall back to "only parent" on mobile with a small icon next to it to display the complete path in a popup or something similar (or use this icon on every device and forget about minify breadcrumb). Don't know if it makes sense. Hope this helps. On 02/07/2015 00:04, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) wrote: -- Jean Simard jean.simard(a)xwiki.com Research engineer at XWiki SAS http://www.xwiki.com Committer on the XWiki.org project http://www.xwiki.org _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

Filters seems a good idea. For example, I'm pretty sure I've almost never used this livetable without typing something into the search fields of one of the columns. It means that first I'm filtering, and then I'm browsing. Therefore, filtering the tree view first and then browse as a tree would be pretty in line with this workflow. It indeed means that you don't display data (author and date mainly) but you filter on them.

But of course, I'm aware that the work on trees may be more complex, more difficult to do. So livetable could be considered as a viable temporary solution (let's choose one of the solution that doesn't imply a lot of work in this case ^^).

On 02/07/2015 11:17, vincent(a)massol.net wrote: > > On 2 Jul 2015 at 11:06:42, Jean SIMARD > (jean.simard@xwiki.com(mailto:jean.simard@xwiki.com)) wrote: > >> Nice work. >> >> However, something stroke me when reading that, why do we still want >> livetable with nested? The tree seems the best way to represent >> hierarchical structure of documents (as you say in sol4) so I'm not sure >> to understand the real reason to try to keep a livetable and not >> completely drop it and focus on tree view. OK, that is my opinion. > > That’s an interesting idea but how do you present data (the other > columns) in a tree view, with filters? > > Thanks > -Vincent > >> Now, to talk about your proposition, I guess sol2 or sol3 are fine (I >> would go more for sol3). >> >> For another solution, maybe you could mixin sol3 with a bit of sol1. >> Let me explain. Use Sol3 but instead of displaying only parent, display >> the minify breadcrumb. And fall back to "only parent" on mobile with a >> small icon next to it to display the complete path in a popup or >> something similar (or use this icon on every device and forget about >> minify breadcrumb). Don't know if it makes sense. >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> >> On 02/07/2015 00:04, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > I've added some ideas on how to display 'Space' column in the > AllDocs page: >> > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/NestedLivetable >> > >> > Let me know what you think and if there are other ideas. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Caty

As an end-user, I mainly used LT to *find* elements (usually a document) and therefore, as a developer, I always used LT to provide a tool for end-users to access elements. In order for them to find these elements, either you display the data and then the end-user try to find what he's looking for (the way LT works today) or you provide a search engine (these filters we talked about).

What do you think? LT is more a *find* tool or a *display* tool? On 02/07/2015 11:41, vincent(a)massol.net wrote: -- Jean Simard jean.simard(a)xwiki.com Research engineer at XWiki SAS http://www.xwiki.com Committer on the XWiki.org project http://www.xwiki.org _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

This is an interesting example. Let's get back a few seconds on the first mail of this thread. The topic was about how to integrate the nested concept into LT. If I paraphrase what I understand: how to display the complete path to a document in a LT (list of all spaces from ROOT to the document). But in this example (LT of extensions), the path is not an interesting information. I don't really care where this page is stored into the wiki (and I guess, you don't too, right?). What's important is the name of the extension, the category and a few other information. So maybe the real question is: do we care about displaying "path" of a document in a LT? (and not, do we care to keep LT like I first said). It's still a bit fuzzy in my head but this is how I think about that at the moment: path is a technical information (therefore, useless for the end-user), but title of the page, category, author, etc. are meaningful information to the end-user. Does it make any sense to you? Trying to imagine some use cases where this path is useful to the end-user (and not just technical), I got some (see below) but as you'll see, I'm not sure it should be the way to implement them: 1) Using Task Manager Application with Project Management Application, you could store all tasks of a project into a subspace (therefore the name of the subspace could be the name of the project 1.problem) Title of the project is probably already a field into the Project Management AWM and what you really want in the LT is this title, not the name of the sub-space (sub-space is only a technical solution to store tasks without colliding between projects) 2) With Blog Application, you store articles in a hierarchy of year/month/day. 2.problem) Indeed, the date is useful information but here again, I guess that you can already get the date from the document itself and therefore, it's only a technical solution for storage which is not very useful to the end-user. Can you think about a real use case where you need this path? (I guess my brain is already to biased on the topic so help me!!!).

On 02/07/2015 14:08, vincent(a)massol.net wrote: > > > On 2 Jul 2015 at 13:49:01, Jean SIMARD > (jean.simard@xwiki.com(mailto:jean.simard@xwiki.com)) wrote: > >> As an end-user, I mainly used LT to *find* elements (usually a document) >> and therefore, as a developer, I always used LT to provide a tool for >> end-users to access elements. In order for them to find these elements, >> either you display the data and then the end-user try to find what he's >> looking for (the way LT works today) or you provide a search engine >> (these filters we talked about). > > So for example how would you imagine http://extensions.xwiki.org ? > > Right now it has a LT that can be used both for navigating to extensions > and for searching. If you need searching in the content then you use the > search page. > > I find that quite convenient. > > Thanks > -Vincent > >> What do you think? LT is more a *find* tool or a *display* tool? >> >> On 02/07/2015 11:41, vincent(a)massol.net wrote: >> > >> > >> > On 2 Jul 2015 at 11:37:49, Jean SIMARD >> > (jean.simard@xwiki.com(mailto:jean.simard@xwiki.com)) wrote: >> > >> >> Filters seems a good idea. >> >> >> >> For example, I'm pretty sure I've almost never used this livetable >> >> without typing something into the search fields of one of the columns. >> >> It means that first I'm filtering, and then I'm browsing. Therefore, >> >> filtering the tree view first and then browse as a tree would be pretty >> >> in line with this workflow. It indeed means that you don't display data >> >> (author and date mainly) but you filter on them. >> > >> > But the main point of LT in general is to display these data! :) >> > >> > Ok maybe you were talking about a tree *only* for this page, while I’m >> > talking about LT in general for all use cases. >> > >> > If you don’t display them you loose the rationale and you loose the >> > ability to decide on what to filter too… >> > >> >> But of course, I'm aware that the work on trees may be more complex, >> >> more difficult to do. So livetable could be considered as a viable >> >> temporary solution (let's choose one of the solution that doesn't imply >> >> a lot of work in this case ^^). >> > >> > I don’t see it as temporary, at least not till someone proposes >> > something better :) >> > >> > Thanks >> > -Vincent >> > >> >> On 02/07/2015 11:17, vincent(a)massol.net wrote: >> >> > >> >> > On 2 Jul 2015 at 11:06:42, Jean SIMARD >> >> > (jean.simard@xwiki.com(mailto:jean.simard@xwiki.com)) wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> Nice work. >> >> >> >> >> >> However, something stroke me when reading that, why do we still want >> >> >> livetable with nested? The tree seems the best way to represent >> >> >> hierarchical structure of documents (as you say in sol4) so I'm not >> > sure >> >> >> to understand the real reason to try to keep a livetable and not >> >> >> completely drop it and focus on tree view. OK, that is my opinion. >> >> > >> >> > That’s an interesting idea but how do you present data (the other >> >> > columns) in a tree view, with filters? >> >> > >> >> > Thanks >> >> > -Vincent >> >> > >> >> >> Now, to talk about your proposition, I guess sol2 or sol3 are > fine (I >> >> >> would go more for sol3). >> >> >> >> >> >> For another solution, maybe you could mixin sol3 with a bit of sol1. >> >> >> Let me explain. Use Sol3 but instead of displaying only parent, > display >> >> >> the minify breadcrumb. And fall back to "only parent" on mobile > with a >> >> >> small icon next to it to display the complete path in a popup or >> >> >> something similar (or use this icon on every device and forget about >> >> >> minify breadcrumb). Don't know if it makes sense. >> >> >> >> >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 02/07/2015 00:04, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) wrote: >> >> >> > Hi, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I've added some ideas on how to display 'Space' column in the >> >> > AllDocs page: >> >> >> > http://design.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Proposal/NestedLivetable >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Let me know what you think and if there are other ideas. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Thanks, >> >> >> > Caty

See below. On 03/07/2015 09:56, vincent(a)massol.net wrote: > Hi Jean, > > See below > > On 2 Jul 2015 at 15:43:56, Jean SIMARD > (jean.simard@xwiki.com(mailto:jean.simard@xwiki.com)) wrote: > >> This is an interesting example. Let's get back a few seconds on the >> first mail of this thread. The topic was about how to integrate the >> nested concept into LT. If I paraphrase what I understand: how to >> display the complete path to a document in a LT (list of all spaces from >> ROOT to the document). But in this example (LT of extensions), the path >> is not an interesting information. I don't really care where this page >> is stored into the wiki (and I guess, you don't too, right?). What's >> important is the name of the extension, the category and a few other >> information. >> >> So maybe the real question is: do we care about displaying "path" of a >> document in a LT? (and not, do we care to keep LT like I first said). >> It's still a bit fuzzy in my head but this is how I think about that at >> the moment: path is a technical information (therefore, useless for the >> end-user), but title of the page, category, author, etc. are meaningful >> information to the end-user. Does it make any sense to you? >> >> Trying to imagine some use cases where this path is useful to the >> end-user (and not just technical), I got some (see below) but as you'll >> see, I'm not sure it should be the way to implement them: >> >> 1) Using Task Manager Application with Project Management Application, >> you could store all tasks of a project into a subspace (therefore the >> name of the subspace could be the name of the project >> 1.problem) Title of the project is probably already a field into the >> Project Management AWM and what you really want in the LT is this title, >> not the name of the sub-space (sub-space is only a technical solution to >> store tasks without colliding between projects) >> >> 2) With Blog Application, you store articles in a hierarchy of >> year/month/day. >> 2.problem) Indeed, the date is useful information but here again, I >> guess that you can already get the date from the document itself and >> therefore, it's only a technical solution for storage which is not very >> useful to the end-user. >> >> Can you think about a real use case where you need this path? (I guess >> my brain is already to biased on the topic so help me!!!). > > You need this path for all use cases actually since this is the only way > you can identify the document name or title you’re looking at. If you > have a document with the “Team” title, how do you know what it means? Is > this the HR Team, the Product Team, the Research Team, etc. The only way > to identify a document is by looking at its path.

I don't understand. If these Team documents are different documents, even if the document name (not title) is the same (only the path differs), they will have different objects and/or have same objects (with different values in properties) and/or different titles. It is these information that you want to display in order to differentiate the lines in your livetable. If these document are exactly the same, I don't see the point to have clones of documents in a wiki (ok, it could happen but I don't feel like we should support this use case).

-- Jean Simard