Hello, Here's my +1. I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :) Thanks, Manuel On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, vincent(a)massol.net <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).a… _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

Hi Caty, On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (valicac(a)gmail.com (mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote: can that I’d be -1 for CSS since: * extra CPU work not required * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default" * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to change! If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations (similar use case than if they wish to change some wording) Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not proposing anything for other languages (each language has its own rules regarding Capitalization). Thanks -Vincent idea http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).a… Capitalization _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:14:50, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (valicac(a)gmail.com (mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote: But our goal is not to capitalize all translations! It’s only to capitalize some (labels, column labels, titles, etc). format. No we don’t deprecate anything, we just need to fix some translations. It’s definitely -1 to for all languages since again each language has different capitalization rules. That’s one of the worst possible reason I’ve ever heard ;) What? You mean someone changed the “Add comment” label translation (for example) from “Add Comment” to “Add comment” when we switched to Flamingo? Are you really sure?

Thanks -Vincent valicac(a)gmail.com it, capitalizing none, change! (similar proposing good http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).a… _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

Hi, Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have a lot of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a CSS rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent. Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri skin, as Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start modifying all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new translations (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do that. We don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches. Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple of strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise CSS itself is useless. +1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, button labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need to come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and what CSS classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will still be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can not catch with CSS. Thanks, Eduard On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < valicac(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

Let’s backtrack! The question I asked was NOT how do it! I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).a… and make that our own rule ad publish it. Please try to answer that question. Thanks -Vincent On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com(mailto: enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote: lot skin solution we format. language, all valicac(a)gmail.com like it, note change! proposing regarding good http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).a… dev.xwiki.org. _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:55:52, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002@gmail.com(mailto:enygma2002@gmail.com)) wrote: The fact that it’s automatic or manual doesn’t change a single thing about the rule. This is about the English language and how it’s applied to web pages, nothing to do with XWiki specifically. Do we want to follow the English language best practices, yes or no? I was expecting it to be a no brainer and everyone saying yes of course.

I’m asking a last time: do you agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).a… for the English language and make that our rule and publish it?

I personally agree about it. Once we agree about it then: - We will publish it at dev.xwiki.org and on l10n.xwiki.org too - When translators write translations in English they’ll need to follow it (if they don’t it’ll be called a bug that will need to be fixed)

- We can optionally (if possible, ATM it’s not) decide to automatically implement it using CSS

Thanks -Vincent _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:55:52, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com(mailto: enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote: The fact that it’s automatic or manual doesn’t change a single thing about the rule. This is about the English language and how it’s applied to web pages, nothing to do with XWiki specifically. Do we want to follow the English language best practices, yes or no? I was expecting it to be a no brainer and everyone saying yes of course. I’m asking a last time: do you agree about following the Capitalization rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).a… for the English language and make that our rule and publish it? I personally agree about it. Once we agree about it then: - We will publish it at dev.xwiki.org and on l10n.xwiki.org too - When translators write translations in English they’ll need to follow it (if they don’t it’ll be called a bug that will need to be fixed) - We can optionally (if possible, ATM it’s not) decide to automatically implement it using CSS Thanks -Vincent at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).a… and > > make that our own rule ad publish it. > > Please try to answer that question. > > Thanks > > -Vincent > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com (mailto: > > enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's > > > concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have a CSS > > > rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent. > > > > Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri skin, as modifying translations that. We > > > don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches. > > > > Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple of CSS > > > itself is useless. > > > > +1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, button to what CSS still not > > > catch with CSS. > > > > Thanks, > > > Eduard > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < > > > valicac(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > > > > > The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the > > skin > > > > and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your > > solution we > > > > would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new > > format. > > > > Is a lengthy process. > > > > > > If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one > > language, > > > > thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally. > > > > The problem with changing just English is that according to Emanuel, > > all > > > > the other languages will look 'less professional'. > > > > > > Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Caty > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, vincent(a)massol.net > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Caty, > > > > > > > > > > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ( > > valicac(a)gmail.com > > > > > (mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote: > > > > > > > > > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the > > > > > > Translations? > > > > > > > > > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't > > like it, > > > > > can > > > > > > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. Also > > note > > > > > that > > > > > > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems > > > > capitalizing > > > > > > all the words. > > > > > > > > > > In your example: > > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > > > > > > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the words or > > > > none, > > > > > > we cannot skip one. > > > > > > > > I’d be -1 for CSS since: > > > > > > > > * extra CPU work not required > > > > > * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default" > > > > > * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to > > change! > > > > > If they really want they’ll just need to override the translations > > > > (similar > > > > > use case than if they wish to change some wording) > > > > > > > > Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not > > proposing > > > > > anything for other languages (each language has its own rules > > regarding > > > > > Capitalization). > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > -Vincent > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Caty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's my +1. > > > > > > > > > > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :) > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > Manuel > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, vincent(a)massol.net > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi devs, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( > > > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a > > good > > > > > idea > > > > > > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).a… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for > > > > > Capitalization > > > > > > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on > > dev.xwiki.org. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Example of labels: > > > > > > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” > > > > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WDYT? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > -Vincent _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs

* I don't agree with the rules defined at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428%28v=vs.85%…

and I certainly wouldn't want to have that link in our documentation.

* I don't agree that we want to vote a standard just for a SPECIFIC language. 

I would prefer to find some rules that apply to all the languages.

This being said: * Each sentence should start with the first letter of the word in uppercase (Sentence cap).

This means that LiveTable actions like 'delete', etc. needs to be fixed. * The rule about first and last doesn't sound very well to me (Title cap),

and anyway it means we would need to do it manually, so it's a case by case scenario.

What I would do instead is: instead of capitalizing random words in headings, I would capitalize just entity names (Wiki, Space, Page, Comment, etc.), examples: - 'Add Page' - add is the first word in the sentence it's uppercase; page is an entity is capitalized but even this 'rule' can be misleading and confusing.

So actually here we are not discussing Capitalization, but 'Title cap' rule, since Capitalization is definitely a no.

I would prefer a 'Sentence cap' rule with some exceptions for entities as described above.

Thanks, Caty On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:08 PM, vincent(a)massol.net wrote: > > > > > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:55:52, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com(mailto: > enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote: > > > The whole side-discussion started because we can not agree to those rules > > before we agree how we do it: manually or automatically. If we agree on > > automatically, then we can not, implicitly, agree on those rules. > > The fact that it’s automatic or manual doesn’t change a single thing about > the rule. > > This is about the English language and how it’s applied to web pages, > nothing to do with XWiki specifically. Do we want to follow the English > language best practices, yes or no? I was expecting it to be a no brainer > and everyone saying yes of course. > > I’m asking a last time: do you agree about following the Capitalization > rules defined at > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).a… > for the English language and make that our rule and publish it? > > I personally agree about it. > > Once we agree about it then: > - We will publish it at dev.xwiki.org and on l10n.xwiki.org too > - When translators write translations in English they’ll need to follow it > (if they don’t it’ll be called a bug that will need to be fixed) > - We can optionally (if possible, ATM it’s not) decide to automatically > implement it using CSS > > Thanks > -Vincent > > > Thanks, > > Eduard > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:52 PM, vincent(a)massol.net > > wrote: > > > > > Let’s backtrack! > > > > > > The question I asked was NOT how do it! > > > > > > I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined > at > > > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).a… > and > > > make that our own rule ad publish it. > > > > > > Please try to answer that question. > > > > > > Thanks > > > -Vincent > > > > > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com > (mailto: > > > enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the translation's > > > > concern to apply capitalization. If we do that, we are bound to have > a > > > lot > > > > of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a > CSS > > > > rule that we all agree on and all the labels will be consistent. > > > > > > > > Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri > skin, as > > > > Caty mentioned). It would abviously have been nonsense to start > modifying > > > > all translations and setting them to upper case, but for new > translations > > > > (or some of the modified ones) to just (inevitably) forget to do > that. We > > > > don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches. > > > > > > > > Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a couple > of > > > > strings, I think we can all agree that it is negligible, otherwise > CSS > > > > itself is useless. > > > > > > > > +1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels, > button > > > > labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still need > to > > > > come up with a clear list of cases where this can be applied and > what CSS > > > > classes we can leverage to do that. I`m still quite sure there will > still > > > > be a lot of places which are application-dependent and which we can > not > > > > catch with CSS. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Eduard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) < > > > > valicac(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > > > > > > > > > The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in the > > > skin > > > > > and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your > > > solution we > > > > > would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use the new > > > format. > > > > > Is a lengthy process. > > > > > > > > > > If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one > > > language, > > > > > thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally. > > > > > The problem with changing just English is that according to > Emanuel, > > > all > > > > > the other languages will look 'less professional'. > > > > > > > > > > Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were uppercase. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Caty > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, vincent(a)massol.net > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Caty, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) ( > > > valicac(a)gmail.com > > > > > > (mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing > the > > > > > > > Translations? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone doesn't > > > like it, > > > > > > can > > > > > > > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc. > Also > > > note > > > > > > that > > > > > > > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems > > > > > capitalizing > > > > > > > all the words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your example: > > > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > > > > > > > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the > words or > > > > > none, > > > > > > > we cannot skip one. > > > > > > > > > > > > I’d be -1 for CSS since: > > > > > > > > > > > > * extra CPU work not required > > > > > > * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default" > > > > > > * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed to > > > change! > > > > > > If they really want they’ll just need to override the > translations > > > > > (similar > > > > > > use case than if they wish to change some wording) > > > > > > > > > > > > Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not > > > proposing > > > > > > anything for other languages (each language has its own rules > > > regarding > > > > > > Capitalization). > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > -Vincent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > Caty > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's my +1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional > :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Manuel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, vincent(a)massol.net > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi devs, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( > > > > > > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think > it’s a > > > good > > > > > > idea > > > > > > > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).a… > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for > > > > > > Capitalization > > > > > > > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on > > > dev.xwiki.org. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Example of labels: > > > > > > > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” > > > > > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WDYT? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > -Vincent

Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing the Translations?

> Hello, > > Here's my +1. > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional :) > > Thanks, > Manuel > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, vincent(a)massol.net &lt;vincent(a)massol.net&gt; > wrote: > > > Hi devs, > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button labels ( > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think it’s a good idea > > that we decide some rules about capitalization indeed. > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN: > > > > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).a… > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our rule for Capitalization > > and to document that in our dev best practices on dev.xwiki.org. > > > > Example of labels: > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment” > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default” > > > > WDYT? > > > > Thanks > > -Vincent

Hi Valdis, On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Valdis Vītoliņš &lt;valdis.vitolins(a)odo.lv&gt; wrote: writing the Definitely not. E.g. for Latvian capital letter (if other letters are lowercase, of course) is used only at the beginning of sentence and for proper nouns (names). We are talking about titles and labels here, not about sentences that require language-specific rules. Does you previous comment also apply to titles and labels in Latvian? Examples: "Document Name" "Space Name" "Page Title" etc... Thanks, Eduard

Hi, 2014-11-12 9:21 GMT+01:00 vincent(a)massol.net : The rule misses some exceptions, for brand names, abbreviations, etc. I don't know if it should be considered an issue or not, but normally whatever the location (sentence, title, button...), in english you should write "iPhone", "eBay", "mRNA", and not "Iphone" or "IPhone" or "Ebay" or "MRNA" or "Mnra". I suppose it would be true of any language, and that a brand name would be written using its original alphabet and case - but I'm really not sure of this.

> Thanks > -Vincent

Here are several resources I’ve found on guidelines for capitalization of UI elements: * http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).a… * https://developercenter.vmware.com/web/standards/-/capitalization-of-ui-ele… * https://developer.gnome.org/hig/stable/writing-style.html.en * https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/UserExperience/Concep… They all seem to roughly say the same thing… Thanks -Vincent On 12 Nov 2014 at 09:21:15, vincent(a)massol.net (vincent@massol.net(mailto:vincent@massol.net)) wrote: _______________________________________________ devs mailing list devs(a)xwiki.org http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs