11 Sep
2015
11 Sep
'15
3:42 p.m.
Hi Devs,
I started trying out XE 7.2 (SNAPSHOT from around 12:30 today) and I was
very impressed, the changes look quite good!
While playing with it, I had a question about how the "Main" space is
handled. Here's what I did: from .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/, I clicked the
"create" button and created a sub page, then a sub-sub page. Here's what I
got:
- .../xwiki/bin/view/SubPage/SubSubPage
Although I was expecting this:
- .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/SubPage/SubSubPage
So I was wondering whether this was the expected behavior, and whether it
had been discussed before?
Congrats & Thanks,
Guillaume
11 Sep
11 Sep
5:24 p.m.
Hi,
Yes, "this is not a bug, it's a feature!" :) I had documented it in a small
paragraph [1] (see the note) but did not feel it was worthy to be mentioned
in the release notes. Please feel free to rephrase if needed.
It's not specifically about "Main", but about the current wiki's
homepage
(and "Main.WebHome" is the default homepage that can be changed from
administration).
The effort is to try to avoid the situation where a regular user lands on
the homepage of the wiki (just accessed the wiki or maybe he clicked the
logo) and wants to create a document. He enters the title and presses
"create". Obviously his intention was to create a page, and, more often
than not (IMO at least), his actual intention was to create a top level
document and not a child document of the wiki's current homepage.
Image the homepage gets changed to "Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage".
Without this "trick", a regular user would end up, by mistake IMO (and by
using the "next-next-next" mindset), creating the document
"Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage.NewDocument".
Even if the homepage remains the default one, I see no logical reason in
spamming all the new documents with the "Main" prefix, the result being an
artificially deeper hierarchy and longer URL.
If a user really intended to create a document as a child of the homepage
(rare usecase IMO), he has all the tools in the UI to simply do so.
I agree that it's a minor consistency dent, but IMO the benefit justifies
it.
WDYT? (interested in more opinions on this since I`ve already had 2
eyebrows raised on this topic :) )
Thanks,
Eduard
---------
[1]
http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Features/DocumentLifecycle#HByusin…
On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
Hi Devs,
I started trying out XE 7.2 (SNAPSHOT from around 12:30 today) and I was
very impressed, the changes look quite good!
While playing with it, I had a question about how the "Main" space is
handled. Here's what I did: from .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/, I clicked the
"create" button and created a sub page, then a sub-sub page. Here's what I
got:
- .../xwiki/bin/view/SubPage/SubSubPage
Although I was expecting this:
- .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/SubPage/SubSubPage
So I was wondering whether this was the expected behavior, and whether it
had been discussed before?
Congrats & Thanks,
Guillaume
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
14 Sep
14 Sep
10:25 a.m.
Hi Edy,
thanks for the explanation. Please see my feedback below.
On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Yes, "this is not a bug, it's a feature!" :) I had documented it in a
small
paragraph [1] (see the note) but did not feel it was worthy to be mentioned
in the release notes. Please feel free to rephrase if needed.
It's not specifically about "Main", but about the current wiki's
homepage
(and "Main.WebHome" is the default homepage that can be changed from
administration).
Does this feature (changing the home page) still makes sense in the context
of nested spaces? What is the point to define the home page as ".../A/B/C"
when based on the new system, "C" is a sub-sub page?
To me, with nested spaces the home page is always the same and cannot be
changed. You may want to add a redirect, but this doesn't change the fact
that the top page is the same.
The effort is to try to avoid the situation where a
regular user lands on
the homepage of the wiki (just accessed the wiki or maybe he clicked the
logo) and wants to create a document. He enters the title and presses
"create". Obviously his intention was to create a page, and, more often
than not (IMO at least), his actual intention was to create a top level
document and not a child document of the wiki's current homepage.
I agree with this. However, in that case, shouldn't the home page be simply
*https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/* instead of
*https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/* ?
Using short URLs, you could even have the home page under *https://<server>/
*and then subpages at *https://<server>/A, **https://<server>/A/B* and so
on. This would be in line with what most CMS do and it would fix your
issue: any page created from the home is a sub-page at the expected level.
Image the homepage gets changed to "Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage".
Without this "trick", a regular user would
end up, by mistake IMO (and by
using the "next-next-next" mindset), creating the document
"Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage.NewDocument".
As I said above, I actually think we should remove this feature in the
context of nested spaces.
Even if the homepage remains the default one, I see no
logical reason in
spamming all the new documents with the "Main" prefix, the result being an
artificially deeper hierarchy and longer URL.
Agreed. As mentioned above, ideally we'd remove it.
If a user really intended to create a document as a
child of the homepage
(rare usecase IMO), he has all the tools in the UI to simply do so.
I agree that it's a minor consistency dent, but IMO the benefit justifies
it.
I don't quite agree that it's minor. One of the implied goals of nested
spaces is to be able to have consistent URL naming (I know exactly where
page *https://<server>/A/B/C *is). Having a special case for Main breaks
this.
Similarly, when on the home page on the main wiki, I don't understand why
the breadcrumb shows both the "home" icon and "Home" text. Why keep
both
when the icon would be enough?
Thanks,
Guillaume
WDYT? (interested in more opinions on this since I've already had 2
eyebrows raised on this topic :) )
Thanks,
Eduard
---------
[1]
http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Features/DocumentLifecycle#HByusin…
On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
Hi Devs,
I started trying out XE 7.2 (SNAPSHOT from around 12:30 today) and I was
very impressed, the changes look quite good!
While playing with it, I had a question about how the "Main" space is
handled. Here's what I did: from .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/, I clicked the
"create" button and created a sub page, then a sub-sub page. Here's what
I
got:
- .../xwiki/bin/view/SubPage/SubSubPage
Although I was expecting this:
- .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/SubPage/SubSubPage
So I was wondering whether this was the expected behavior, and whether it
had been discussed before?
Congrats & Thanks,
Guillaume
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs 
11:22 a.m.
Hi,
The current behavior was reached after many discussions.
Currently the concept of main wiki is expressed as the 'home' icon, but is
not tied to a particular space. This is something we preserved and is
flexible enough for users with custom content to change the location of the
homepage or assigned a different space, for a different subwiki.
Also we needed to showcase differently spaces that are top level, vs. pages
inside the Main space, while having the limited number of exceptions
created for the breadcrumb.
Also I wouldn't like that all the URL contain the word 'Main'. Imagine that
besides the 'xwiki/bin/view/' we would need to also contain the homepage
space? Although we have a convention that a certain page is displayed as
homepage, this is not needed to be in the URL. 'home' icon is a link for
the homepage, not a physical location. Currently the 'Main' space can
contain pages useful for the display of the homepage, but is an 'optional'
space.
Thanks,
Caty
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
Hi Edy,
thanks for the explanation. Please see my feedback below.
On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Hi,
Yes, "this is not a bug, it's a feature!" :) I had documented it in a
small
paragraph [1] (see the note) but did not feel it
was worthy to be
mentioned
in the release notes. Please feel free to
rephrase if needed.
It's not specifically about "Main", but about the current wiki's
homepage
(and "Main.WebHome" is the default homepage that can be changed from
administration).
Does this feature (changing the home page) still makes sense in the context
of nested spaces? What is the point to define the home page as ".../A/B/C"
when based on the new system, "C" is a sub-sub page?
To me, with nested spaces the home page is always the same and cannot be
changed. You may want to add a redirect, but this doesn't change the fact
that the top page is the same.
The effort is to try to avoid the situation where
a regular user lands on
the homepage of the wiki (just accessed the wiki or maybe he clicked the
logo) and wants to create a document. He enters the title and presses
"create". Obviously his intention was to create a page, and, more often
than not (IMO at least), his actual intention was to create a top level
document and not a child document of the wiki's current homepage.
I agree with this. However, in that case, shouldn't the home page be simply
*https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/* instead of
*https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/* ?
Using short URLs, you could even have the home page under *https://
<server>/
*and then subpages at *https://<server>/A, **https://<server>/A/B* and so
on. This would be in line with what most CMS do and it would fix your
issue: any page created from the home is a sub-page at the expected level.
Image the homepage gets changed to "Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage".
Without this "trick", a regular user
would end up, by mistake IMO (and by
using the "next-next-next" mindset), creating the document
"Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage.NewDocument".
As I said above, I actually think we should remove this feature in the
context of nested spaces.
Even if the homepage remains the default one, I
see no logical reason in
spamming all the new documents with the "Main" prefix, the result being
an
artificially deeper hierarchy and longer URL.
Agreed. As mentioned above, ideally we'd remove it.
If a user really intended to create a document as
a child of the homepage
(rare usecase IMO), he has all the tools in the UI to simply do so.
I agree that it's a minor consistency dent, but IMO the benefit justifies
it.
I don't quite agree that it's minor. One of the implied goals of nested
spaces is to be able to have consistent URL naming (I know exactly where
page *https://<server>/A/B/C *is). Having a special case for Main breaks
this.
Similarly, when on the home page on the main wiki, I don't understand why
the breadcrumb shows both the "home" icon and "Home" text. Why keep
both
when the icon would be enough?
Thanks,
Guillaume
WDYT? (interested in more opinions on this since I've already had 2
eyebrows raised on this topic :) )
Thanks,
Eduard
---------
[1]
http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Features/DocumentLifecycle#HByusin…
On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
> Hi Devs,
>
> I started trying out XE 7.2 (SNAPSHOT from around 12:30 today) and I
was
> very impressed, the changes look quite
good!
>
> While playing with it, I had a question about how the "Main" space is
> handled. Here's what I did: from .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/, I clicked
the
> "create" button and created a sub
page, then a sub-sub page. Here's
what
I
> got:
>
> - .../xwiki/bin/view/SubPage/SubSubPage
>
> Although I was expecting this:
>
> - .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/SubPage/SubSubPage
>
> So I was wondering whether this was the expected behavior, and whether
it
had been
discussed before?
Congrats & Thanks,
Guillaume
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
5:26 p.m.
Hi Caty,
thanks for your message. Please see my answers below.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
The current behavior was reached after many discussions.
I understand. However, I only got the time to actually try and test XE 7.2
last week. And based on what Edy said, I'm not the only one who was
surprised by the current behavior :-)
Currently the concept of main wiki is expressed as the
'home' icon, but is
not tied to a particular space. This is something we preserved and is
flexible enough for users with custom content to change the location of the
homepage or assigned a different space, for a different subwiki.
I understand this. I'm not questioning the current behavior, but the
underlying assumption. Given the new paradigm we're implementing with
nested spaces, why would an user want to change the location of the
homepage? To me, it's like saying that you would want the top level folder
on your computer to be something else than the hard drive itself. I don't
understand why that would be useful.
Do you have specific use cases in mind that I might be missing (other than
"this feature existed before")?
Also we needed to showcase differently spaces that are top level, vs. pages
inside the Main space, while having the limited number
of exceptions
created for the breadcrumb.
I think there are 2 separate problems here:
1. Where should we put all of the pages that are currently in the "Main"
space if we decide that not all of them deserve to be top-level pages
2. Making it possible to have top-level pages in a coherent manner
For 1., pages in the Main space could stay where they are for now. "Main"
would be the legacy space where we put useful tools for the management of
your wiki.
I'm discussing the answer for 2. below.
Also I wouldn't like that all the URL contain the word 'Main' Imagine that
besides the 'xwiki/bin/view/' we would need to
also contain the homepage
space?
My very point is that the home page wouldn't (shouldn't?) need to be
"Main". It would be "". IE, there would be nothing in the URL to
reflect
it. It would be a representation of the wiki itself.
I understand that technically this is not feasible right now and that we
*need* to have a specific page be the home page, which is the role played
by Main.WebHome. What I'm saying is that with the new system, I'd rather
have *.../xwiki/bin/view/WebHome => **.../xwiki/bin/view/ *would be the
whole wiki. That level would be the top level space (which is exactly what
has been implemented by the way). Do you see what I mean?
Although we have a convention that a certain page is
displayed as
homepage, this is not needed to be in the URL. 'home' icon is a link for
the homepage, not a physical location. Currently the 'Main' space can
contain pages useful for the display of the homepage, but is an 'optional'
space.
What I' suggesting is precisely that the home page be its own document at
the very top of the hierarchy, ABOVE what is currently known as
Main.WebHome. This is why while the user is on this page, she should see
only the home icon.
Is this making what I mean clearer? I'm just suggesting we push things one
step further in the direction that has already been established.
Thanks,
Guillaume
Thanks,
Caty
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
context
simply
in
homepage
http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Features/DocumentLifecycle#HByusin…
whether
Hi Edy,
thanks for the explanation. Please see my feedback below.
On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
homepage
Hi,
Yes, "this is not a bug, it's a feature!" :) I had documented it in a
small
paragraph [1] (see the note) but did not feel it
was worthy to be
mentioned
> in the release notes. Please feel free to rephrase if needed.
>
> It's not specifically about "Main", but about the current wiki's
(and
"Main.WebHome" is the default homepage that can be changed from
administration).
Does this feature (changing the home page) still makes sense in the of nested spaces? What is the point to define the
home page as
".../A/B/C"
when based on the new system, "C" is a
sub-sub page?
To me, with nested spaces the home page is always the same and cannot be
changed. You may want to add a redirect, but this doesn't change the fact
that the top page is the same.
> The effort is to try to avoid the situation where a regular user lands
on
> the homepage of the wiki (just accessed the
wiki or maybe he clicked
the
logo) and
wants to create a document. He enters the title and presses
"create". Obviously his intention was to create a page, and, more often
than not (IMO at least), his actual intention was to create a top level
document and not a child document of the wiki's current homepage.
I agree with this. However, in that case, shouldn't the home page be *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/* instead
of
*https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/* ?
Using short URLs, you could even have the home page under *https://
<server>/
*and then subpages at *https://<server>/A, **https://<server>/A/B* and
so
on. This would be in line with what most CMS do
and it would fix your
issue: any page created from the home is a sub-page at the expected
level.
Image the homepage gets changed to "Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage".
> Without this "trick", a regular user would end up, by mistake IMO (and
by
using the
"next-next-next" mindset), creating the document
"Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage.NewDocument".
As I said above, I actually think we should remove this feature in the
context of nested spaces.
> Even if the homepage remains the default one, I see no logical reason spamming
all the new documents with the "Main" prefix, the result being
an
artificially deeper hierarchy and longer URL.
Agreed. As mentioned above, ideally we'd remove it.
> If a user really intended to create a document as a child of the > (rare usecase IMO), he has all the tools in
the UI to simply do so.
>
> I agree that it's a minor consistency dent, but IMO the benefit
justifies
it.
I don't quite agree that it's minor. One of the implied goals of nested
spaces is to be able to have consistent URL naming (I know exactly where
page *https://<server>/A/B/C *is). Having a special case for Main breaks
this.
Similarly, when on the home page on the main wiki, I don't understand why
the breadcrumb shows both the "home" icon and "Home" text. Why keep
both
when the icon would be enough?
Thanks,
Guillaume
WDYT? (interested in more opinions on this since I've already had 2
eyebrows raised on this topic :) )
Thanks,
Eduard
---------
[1]
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
> Hi Devs,
>
> I started trying out XE 7.2 (SNAPSHOT from around 12:30 today) and I
was
> very impressed, the changes look quite
good!
>
> While playing with it, I had a question about how the "Main" space is
> handled. Here's what I did: from .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/, I clicked
the
> "create" button and created a sub
page, then a sub-sub page. Here's
what
> I
> > got:
> >
> > - .../xwiki/bin/view/SubPage/SubSubPage
> >
> > Although I was expecting this:
> >
> > - .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/SubPage/SubSubPage
> >
> > So I was wondering whether this was the expected behavior, and it
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
had been
discussed before?
Congrats & Thanks,
Guillaume
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
15 Sep
15 Sep
12:04 p.m.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:26 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
:) sure, but how do we do it?
Thanks,
Caty
Hi Caty,
thanks for your message. Please see my answers below.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I think the main use case when you have old/imported from somewhere else
content. Instead of having to copy all those pages inside Main space, you
just import them and reassign the homepage.
Hi,
The current behavior was reached after many discussions.
I understand. However, I only got the time to actually try and test XE 7.2
last week. And based on what Edy said, I'm not the only one who was
surprised by the current behavior :-)
Currently the concept of main wiki is expressed
as the 'home' icon, but
is
not tied to a particular space. This is something
we preserved and is
flexible enough for users with custom content to change the location of
the
homepage or assigned a different space, for a
different subwiki.
I understand this. I'm not questioning the current behavior, but the
underlying assumption. Given the new paradigm we're implementing with
nested spaces, why would an user want to change the location of the
homepage? To me, it's like saying that you would want the top level folder
on your computer to be something else than the hard drive itself. I don't
understand why that would be useful.
Do you have specific use cases in mind that I might be missing (other than
"this feature existed before")?
Also we needed to showcase differently spaces that are top level, vs. pages
I don't think we have such a concept of top-level pages. Nothing in Main
space is a top-level page (pages like Welcome are tool-pages).
The only top-level/important page is Main.WebHome.
inside the Main space, while having the limited
number of exceptions
created for the breadcrumb.
I think there are 2 separate problems here:
1. Where should we put all of the pages that are currently in the "Main"
space if we decide that not all of them deserve to be top-level pages
2. Making it possible to have top-level pages in a coherent manner
For 1., pages in the Main space could stay where they are for now. "Main"
would be the legacy space where we put useful tools for the management of
your wiki.
Also think about the pages in XWiki space, that are tool-pages.
I'm discussing the answer for 2. below.
Also I wouldn't like that all the URL contain the word 'Main' Imagine that
I see what you mean and it would be ideal, but technically right now I
don't think we can achieve that. And that's why all the problems and
exceptions.
besides the 'xwiki/bin/view/' we would
need to also contain the homepage
space?
My very point is that the home page wouldn't (shouldn't?) need to be
"Main". It would be "". IE, there would be nothing in the URL to
reflect
it. It would be a representation of the wiki itself.
I understand that technically this is not feasible right now and that we
*need* to have a specific page be the home page, which is the role played
by Main.WebHome. What I'm saying is that with the new system, I'd rather
have *.../xwiki/bin/view/WebHome => **.../xwiki/bin/view/ *would be the
whole wiki. That level would be the top level space (which is exactly what
has been implemented by the way). Do you see what I mean?
Although we have a convention that a certain page
is displayed as
homepage, this is not needed to be in the URL. 'home' icon is a link for
the homepage, not a physical location. Currently the 'Main' space can
contain pages useful for the display of the homepage, but is an
'optional'
space.
What I' suggesting is precisely that the home page be its own document at
the very top of the hierarchy, ABOVE what is currently known as
Main.WebHome. This is why while the user is on this page, she should see
only the home icon.
Is this making what I mean clearer? I'm just suggesting we push things one
step further in the direction that has already been established.
Thanks,
Guillaume
Thanks,
simply
(and
where
http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Features/DocumentLifecycle#HByusin…
I
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Caty
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com
wrote:
context
be
Hi Edy,
thanks for the explanation. Please see my feedback below.
On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
homepage
Hi,
Yes, "this is not a bug, it's a feature!" :) I had documented it in a
small
paragraph [1] (see the note) but did not feel it
was worthy to be
mentioned
> in the release notes. Please feel free to rephrase if needed.
>
> It's not specifically about "Main", but about the current wiki's
(and
"Main.WebHome" is the default homepage that can be changed from
administration).
Does this feature (changing the home page) still makes sense in the of nested spaces? What is the point to define the
home page as
".../A/B/C"
> when based on the new system, "C" is a sub-sub page?
>
> To me, with nested spaces the home page is always the same and cannot > changed. You may want to add a redirect, but
this doesn't change the
fact
> that the top page is the same.
>
>
> > The effort is to try to avoid the situation where a regular user
lands
on
often
> the homepage of the wiki (just accessed the
wiki or maybe he clicked
the
> > logo) and wants to create a document. He enters the title and presses
> > "create". Obviously his intention was to create a page, and, more
> > than not (IMO at least), his actual
intention was to create a top
level
document and not a child document of the wiki's
current homepage.
I agree with this. However, in that case, shouldn't the home page be *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/* instead
of
*https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/* ?
Using short URLs, you could even have the home page under *https://
<server>/
*and then subpages at *https://<server>/A, **https://<server>/A/B* and
so
on. This would be in line with what most CMS do
and it would fix your
issue: any page created from the home is a sub-page at the expected
level.
>
> Image the homepage gets changed to "Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage".
> > Without this "trick", a regular user would end up, by mistake IMO
by
in
> > spamming all the new documents with the "Main" prefix, the result
being
using the
"next-next-next" mindset), creating the document
"Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage.NewDocument".
As I said above, I actually think we should remove this feature in the
context of nested spaces.
> Even if the homepage remains the default one, I see no logical reason an
homepage
artificially deeper hierarchy and longer URL.
Agreed. As mentioned above, ideally we'd remove it.
> If a user really intended to create a document as a child of the > (rare usecase IMO), he has all the tools in
the UI to simply do so.
>
> I agree that it's a minor consistency dent, but IMO the benefit
justifies
> > it.
> >
>
> I don't quite agree that it's minor. One of the implied goals of nested
> spaces is to be able to have consistent URL naming (I know exactly > page *https://<server>/A/B/C *is).
Having a special case for Main
breaks
> this.
>
> Similarly, when on the home page on the main wiki, I don't understand
why
> the breadcrumb shows both the
"home" icon and "Home" text. Why keep
both
when the
icon would be enough?
Thanks,
Guillaume
WDYT? (interested in more opinions on this since I've already had 2
eyebrows raised on this topic :) )
Thanks,
Eduard
---------
[1]
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Devs,
> > >
> > > I started trying out XE 7.2 (SNAPSHOT from around 12:30 today) and > was
> > > very impressed, the changes look quite good!
> > >
> > > While playing with it, I had a question about how the "Main"
space
is
> > > handled. Here's what I did:
from .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/, I
clicked
the
whether
> "create" button and created a sub
page, then a sub-sub page. Here's
what
> I
> > got:
> >
> > - .../xwiki/bin/view/SubPage/SubSubPage
> >
> > Although I was expecting this:
> >
> > - .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/SubPage/SubSubPage
> >
> > So I was wondering whether this was the expected behavior, and it
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> had been discussed before?
>
> Congrats & Thanks,
>
> Guillaume
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> devs(a)xwiki.org
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
3:22 p.m.
Hi,
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 12:04 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:26 PM, Guillaume Lerouge
<guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
"Main"
what
one
Usually, when hopeing for something like this to get done, I beg Vincent to
find a way ;-)
Guillaume
Thanks,
Hi Caty,
thanks for your message. Please see my answers below.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
7.2
Hi,
The current behavior was reached after many discussions.
I understand. However, I only got the time to actually try and test XE last week. And based on what Edy said, I'm
not the only one who was
surprised by the current behavior :-)
folder
Currently the concept of main wiki is expressed
as the 'home' icon, but
is
not tied to a particular space. This is something
we preserved and is
flexible enough for users with custom content to change the location of
the
homepage or assigned a different space, for a
different subwiki.
I understand this. I'm not questioning the current behavior, but the
underlying assumption. Given the new paradigm we're implementing with
nested spaces, why would an user want to change the location of the
homepage? To me, it's like saying that you would want the top level on your computer to be something else than the
hard drive itself. I don't
understand why that would be useful.
Do you have specific use cases in mind that I might be missing (other
than
"this feature existed before")?
I think the main use case when you have old/imported from somewhere else
content. Instead of having to copy all those pages inside Main space, you
just import them and reassign the homepage.
Also we needed to showcase differently spaces that are top level, vs.
pages
inside
the Main space, while having the limited number of exceptions
created for the breadcrumb.
I think there are 2 separate problems here:
1. Where should we put all of the pages that are currently in the space if we decide that not all of them
deserve to be top-level pages
2. Making it possible to have top-level pages in a coherent manner
I don't think we have such a concept of top-level pages. Nothing in Main
space is a top-level page (pages like Welcome are tool-pages).
The only top-level/important page is Main.WebHome.
For 1., pages in the Main space could stay where they are for now. "Main"
would be the legacy space where we put useful tools for the management of
your wiki.
Also think about the pages in XWiki space, that are tool-pages.
I'm discussing the answer for 2. below.
Also I wouldn't like that all the URL contain the word 'Main' Imagine
that
> besides the 'xwiki/bin/view/' we
would need to also contain the
homepage
space?
My very point is that the home page wouldn't (shouldn't?) need to be
"Main". It would be "". IE, there would be nothing in the URL to
reflect
it. It would be a representation of the wiki itself.
I understand that technically this is not feasible right now and that we
*need* to have a specific page be the home page, which is the role played
by Main.WebHome. What I'm saying is that with the new system, I'd rather
have *.../xwiki/bin/view/WebHome => **.../xwiki/bin/view/ *would be the
whole wiki. That level would be the top level space (which is exactly has been implemented by the way). Do you see what
I mean?
I see what you mean and it would be ideal, but technically right now I
don't think we can achieve that. And that's why all the problems and
exceptions.
> Although we have a convention that a certain page is displayed as
> homepage, this is not needed to be in the URL. 'home' icon is a link
for
the
homepage, not a physical location. Currently the 'Main' space can
contain pages useful for the display of the homepage, but is an
'optional'
space.
What I' suggesting is precisely that the home page be its own document at
the very top of the hierarchy, ABOVE what is currently known as
Main.WebHome. This is why while the user is on this page, she should see
only the home icon.
Is this making what I mean clearer? I'm just suggesting we push things step further in the direction that has already
been established.
:) sure, but how do we do it?
Caty
in a
be
clicked
and
the
nested
http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Features/DocumentLifecycle#HByusin…
Thanks,
Guillaume
Thanks,
> Caty
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Guillaume Lerouge <
guillaume(a)xwiki.com
wrote:
> Hi Edy,
>
> thanks for the explanation. Please see my feedback below.
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Yes, "this is not a bug, it's a feature!" :) I had
documented it > > small
> > > paragraph [1] (see the note) but did not feel it was worthy to be
> > mentioned
> > > in the release notes. Please feel free to rephrase if needed.
> > >
> > > It's not specifically about "Main", but about the current
wiki's
> homepage
> > > (and "Main.WebHome" is the default homepage that can be changed
from
> administration).
>
Does this feature (changing the home page) still makes sense in the
context
of nested spaces? What is the point to define the
home page as
".../A/B/C"
> when based on the new system, "C" is a sub-sub page?
>
> To me, with nested spaces the home page is always the same and cannot > changed. You may want to add a redirect, but
this doesn't change the
fact
> that the top page is the same.
>
>
> > The effort is to try to avoid the situation where a regular user
lands
> on
> > > the homepage of the wiki (just accessed the wiki or maybe he > the
> > > logo) and wants to create a document. He enters the title and
presses
> >
"create". Obviously his intention was to create a page, and, more
often
> > than not (IMO at least), his actual
intention was to create a top
level
> > > document and not a child document of the wiki's current homepage.
> > >
> >
> > I agree with this. However, in that case, shouldn't the home page be
> simply
> > *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/* instead of
> > *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/* ?
> >
> > Using short URLs, you could even have the home page under *https://
> > <server>/
> > *and then subpages at *https://<server>/A, **https://<server>/A/B*
so
(and
> by
> > > using the "next-next-next" mindset), creating the document
> > > "Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage.NewDocument".
> > >
> >
> > As I said above, I actually think we should remove this feature in on. This would be in line with what most CMS do
and it would fix your
issue: any page created from the home is a sub-page at the expected
level.
>
> Image the homepage gets changed to "Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage".
> > Without this "trick", a regular user would end up, by mistake IMO
> > context of nested spaces.
> >
> >
> > > Even if the homepage remains the default one, I see no logical
reason
in
> > spamming all the new documents with the "Main" prefix, the result
being
> > an
> > > artificially deeper hierarchy and longer URL.
> > >
> >
> > Agreed. As mentioned above, ideally we'd remove it.
> >
> >
> > > If a user really intended to create a document as a child of the
> homepage
> > > (rare usecase IMO), he has all the tools in the UI to simply do so.
> > >
> > > I agree that it's a minor consistency dent, but IMO the benefit
> justifies
> > > it.
> > >
> >
> > I don't quite agree that it's minor. One of the implied goals of >
spaces is to be able to have consistent URL naming (I know exactly
where
> page *https://<server>/A/B/C *is).
Having a special case for Main
breaks
> this.
>
> Similarly, when on the home page on the main wiki, I don't understand
why
> the breadcrumb shows both the
"home" icon and "Home" text. Why keep
both
when the
icon would be enough?
Thanks,
Guillaume
WDYT? (interested in more opinions on this since I've already had 2
> eyebrows raised on this topic :) )
>
> Thanks,
> Eduard
>
> ---------
> [1]
>
>
> > >
> > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
> guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Devs,
> > > >
> > > > I started trying out XE 7.2 (SNAPSHOT from around 12:30 today)
and
I
> > was
> > > > very impressed, the changes look quite good!
> > > >
> > > > While playing with it, I had a question about how the
"Main"
space
is
Here's
> > > handled. Here's what I did:
from .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/, I
clicked
> > the
> > > > "create" button and created a sub page, then a sub-sub
page. > > what
> > > I
> > > > got:
> > > >
> > > > - .../xwiki/bin/view/SubPage/SubSubPage
> > > >
> > > > Although I was expecting this:
> > > >
> > > > - .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/SubPage/SubSubPage
> > > >
> > > > So I was wondering whether this was the expected behavior, and
> whether
> > it
> > > > had been discussed before?
> > > >
> > > > Congrats & Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Guillaume
3:23 p.m.
Hi Guillaume,
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:26 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
Hi Caty,
thanks for your message. Please see my answers below.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
The hard-drive is the wiki not the Main space. Or, if you want to be
precise, the entire farm is the hard-drive, a wiki is a partition on
that hard-drive and a space is a folder on a partition. The Main space
is just one of the top level "folders". Blog, XWiki, Sandbox are also
at the top level. And you can create new top level "folders". When you
access XWiki you get redirected to the Main space by default but
someone may want the Blog space to be opened by default.
Hi,
The current behavior was reached after many discussions.
I understand. However, I only got the time to actually try and test XE 7.2
last week. And based on what Edy said, I'm not the only one who was
surprised by the current behavior :-)
Currently the concept of main wiki is expressed
as the 'home' icon, but is
not tied to a particular space. This is something we preserved and is
flexible enough for users with custom content to change the location of the
homepage or assigned a different space, for a different subwiki.
I understand this. I'm not questioning the current behavior, but the
underlying assumption. Given the new paradigm we're implementing with
nested spaces, why would an user want to change the location of the
homepage? To me, it's like saying that you would want the top level folder
on your computer to be something else than the hard drive itself. I don't
understand why that would be useful.
Do you have specific use cases in mind that I might be missing (other than
"this feature existed before")?
Also we needed to showcase differently spaces that are top level, vs. pages
inside the Main space, while having the limited
number of exceptions
created for the breadcrumb.
I think there are 2 separate problems here:
1. Where should we put all of the pages that are
currently in the "Main"
space if we decide that not all of them deserve to be top-level pages
Pages from the Main space are not top level. Main is top level, and
Main is on the same level with Blog, Sandbox and XWiki. Check the
document index tree. I have the feeling you're making a confusion.
2. Making it possible to have top-level pages in a
coherent manner
For 1., pages in the Main space could stay where they are for now. "Main"
would be the legacy space where we put useful tools for the management of
your wiki.
I'm discussing the answer for 2. below.
Also I wouldn't like that all the URL contain the word 'Main' Imagine that
besides the 'xwiki/bin/view/' we would
need to also contain the homepage
space?
My very point is that the home page wouldn't (shouldn't?) need to be
"Main". It would be "". IE, there would be nothing in the URL to
reflect
it. It would be a representation of the wiki itself.
I understand that technically this is not feasible right now and that we
*need* to have a specific page be the home page, which is the role played
by Main.WebHome. What I'm saying is that with the new system, I'd rather
have *.../xwiki/bin/view/WebHome => **.../xwiki/bin/view/ *would be the
whole wiki. That level would be the top level space (which is exactly what
has been implemented by the way). Do you see what I mean?
Although we have a convention that a certain page
is displayed as
homepage, this is not needed to be in the URL. 'home' icon is a link for
the homepage, not a physical location. Currently the 'Main' space can
contain pages useful for the display of the homepage, but is an 'optional'
space.
What I' suggesting is precisely that the home page be its own document at
the very top of the hierarchy, ABOVE what is currently known as
Main.WebHome. This is why while the user is on this page, she should see
only the home icon.
Is this making what I mean clearer? I'm just suggesting we push things one
step further in the direction that has already been established.
Thanks,
Guillaume
Thanks,
Caty
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
context
simply
in
homepage
http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Features/DocumentLifecycle#HByusin…
whether
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs Hi Edy,
thanks for the explanation. Please see my feedback below.
On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
homepage
Hi,
Yes, "this is not a bug, it's a feature!" :) I had documented it in a
small
paragraph [1] (see the note) but did not feel it
was worthy to be
mentioned
> in the release notes. Please feel free to rephrase if needed.
>
> It's not specifically about "Main", but about the current wiki's
(and
"Main.WebHome" is the default homepage that can be changed from
administration).
Does this feature (changing the home page) still makes sense in the of nested spaces? What is the point to define the
home page as
".../A/B/C"
when based on the new system, "C" is a
sub-sub page?
To me, with nested spaces the home page is always the same and cannot be
changed. You may want to add a redirect, but this doesn't change the fact
that the top page is the same.
> The effort is to try to avoid the situation where a regular user lands
on
> the homepage of the wiki (just accessed the
wiki or maybe he clicked
the
logo) and
wants to create a document. He enters the title and presses
"create". Obviously his intention was to create a page, and, more often
than not (IMO at least), his actual intention was to create a top level
document and not a child document of the wiki's current homepage.
I agree with this. However, in that case, shouldn't the home page be *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/* instead
of
*https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/* ?
Using short URLs, you could even have the home page under *https://
<server>/
*and then subpages at *https://<server>/A, **https://<server>/A/B* and
so
on. This would be in line with what most CMS do
and it would fix your
issue: any page created from the home is a sub-page at the expected
level.
Image the homepage gets changed to "Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage".
> Without this "trick", a regular user would end up, by mistake IMO (and
by
using the
"next-next-next" mindset), creating the document
"Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage.NewDocument".
As I said above, I actually think we should remove this feature in the
context of nested spaces.
> Even if the homepage remains the default one, I see no logical reason spamming
all the new documents with the "Main" prefix, the result being
an
artificially deeper hierarchy and longer URL.
Agreed. As mentioned above, ideally we'd remove it.
> If a user really intended to create a document as a child of the > (rare usecase IMO), he has all the tools in
the UI to simply do so.
>
> I agree that it's a minor consistency dent, but IMO the benefit
justifies
it.
I don't quite agree that it's minor. One of the implied goals of nested
spaces is to be able to have consistent URL naming (I know exactly where
page *https://<server>/A/B/C *is). Having a special case for Main breaks
this.
Similarly, when on the home page on the main wiki, I don't understand why
the breadcrumb shows both the "home" icon and "Home" text. Why keep
both
when the icon would be enough?
Thanks,
Guillaume
WDYT? (interested in more opinions on this since I've already had 2
eyebrows raised on this topic :) )
Thanks,
Eduard
---------
[1]
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
> Hi Devs,
>
> I started trying out XE 7.2 (SNAPSHOT from around 12:30 today) and I
was
> very impressed, the changes look quite
good!
>
> While playing with it, I had a question about how the "Main" space is
> handled. Here's what I did: from .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/, I clicked
the
> "create" button and created a sub
page, then a sub-sub page. Here's
what
> I
> > got:
> >
> > - .../xwiki/bin/view/SubPage/SubSubPage
> >
> > Although I was expecting this:
> >
> > - .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/SubPage/SubSubPage
> >
> > So I was wondering whether this was the expected behavior, and it
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
> had been discussed before?
>
> Congrats & Thanks,
>
> Guillaume
> _______________________________________________
> devs mailing list
> devs(a)xwiki.org
> http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
>
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
4:30 p.m.
Hi Marius,
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea <
mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
Hi Guillaume,
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:26 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
folder
I am making an intentional confusion because I think that this is how
end-users are going to perceive it too. I think I understand well enough
XWiki's current model, the reason why there's a Main space to begin with
and the fact that it's just a space among others, not a top-level space by
itself.
However, we cannot expect that level of implicit knowledge from a fresh new
user. As a new user, I'm on "Main", which to me is the top level page, I
create a new page, and it's created next to Main, not under it. That
doesn't fit with my mental model of how nested pages should work. That new
page should be under Main, not at the same level. Do you see what I mean?
As pointed out by Caty, I also understand that there are technical
limitations that explain this behavior and that it's tough to overcome them
in the short amount of time that we have as part of the 7.2 release
timeframe. We'll most likely have to keep the current behavior and live
with it for a while. But I know for sure that it is going to create
confusion for some end users, the same way it did for me :-)
Thanks,
Guillaume
Hi Caty,
thanks for your message. Please see my answers below.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
7.2
Hi,
The current behavior was reached after many discussions.
I understand. However, I only got the time to actually try and test XE last week. And based on what Edy said, I'm
not the only one who was
surprised by the current behavior :-)
> Currently the concept of main wiki is expressed as the 'home' icon, but
is
> not tied to a particular space. This is
something we preserved and is
> flexible enough for users with custom content to change the location of
the
homepage
or assigned a different space, for a different subwiki.
I understand this. I'm not questioning the current behavior, but the
underlying assumption. Given the new paradigm we're implementing with
nested spaces, why would an user want to change the location of the
homepage? To me, it's like saying that you would want the top level on your computer to be something else than the
hard drive itself. I don't
understand why that would be useful.
The hard-drive is the wiki not the Main space. Or, if you want to be
precise, the entire farm is the hard-drive, a wiki is a partition on
that hard-drive and a space is a folder on a partition. The Main space
is just one of the top level "folders". Blog, XWiki, Sandbox are also
at the top level. And you can create new top level "folders". When you
access XWiki you get redirected to the Main space by default but
someone may want the Blog space to be opened by default.
Do you have specific use cases in mind that I might be missing (other
than
"this feature existed before")?
Also we needed to showcase differently spaces that are top level, vs.
pages
inside
the Main space, while having the limited number of exceptions
created for the breadcrumb.
I think there are 2 separate problems here:
1. Where should we put all of the pages that
are currently in the
"Main"
space if we decide that not all of them
deserve to be top-level pages
Pages from the Main space are not top level. Main is top level, and
Main is on the same level with Blog, Sandbox and XWiki. Check the
document index tree. I have the feeling you're making a confusion.
2. Making it possible to have top-level pages in a
coherent manner
what
one
For 1., pages in the Main space could stay where they are for now. "Main"
would be the legacy space where we put useful tools for the management of
your wiki.
I'm discussing the answer for 2. below.
Also I wouldn't like that all the URL contain the word 'Main' Imagine
that
besides
the 'xwiki/bin/view/' we would need to also contain the homepage
space?
My very point is that the home page wouldn't (shouldn't?) need to be
"Main". It would be "". IE, there would be nothing in the URL to
reflect
it. It would be a representation of the wiki itself.
I understand that technically this is not feasible right now and that we
*need* to have a specific page be the home page, which is the role played
by Main.WebHome. What I'm saying is that with the new system, I'd rather
have *.../xwiki/bin/view/WebHome => **.../xwiki/bin/view/ *would be the
whole wiki. That level would be the top level space (which is exactly has been implemented by the way). Do you see what
I mean?
> Although we have a convention that a certain page is displayed as
> homepage, this is not needed to be in the URL. 'home' icon is a link for
> the homepage, not a physical location. Currently the 'Main' space can
> contain pages useful for the display of the homepage, but is an
'optional'
space.
What I' suggesting is precisely that the home page be its own document at
the very top of the hierarchy, ABOVE what is currently known as
Main.WebHome. This is why while the user is on this page, she should see
only the home icon.
Is this making what I mean clearer? I'm just suggesting we push things step further in the direction that has already
been established.
Thanks,
Guillaume
Thanks,
> Caty
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Guillaume Lerouge <
guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Edy,
> >
> > thanks for the explanation. Please see my feedback below.
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Yes, "this is not a bug, it's a feature!" :) I had documented
it in
a
> > small
> > > paragraph [1] (see the note) but did not feel it was worthy to be
> > mentioned
> > > in the release notes. Please feel free to rephrase if needed.
> > >
> > > It's not specifically about "Main", but about the current
wiki's
> homepage
> > > (and "Main.WebHome" is the default homepage that can be changed
from
> > > administration).
> > >
> >
> > Does this feature (changing the home page) still makes sense in the
> context
> > of nested spaces? What is the point to define the home page as
> ".../A/B/C"
> > when based on the new system, "C" is a sub-sub page?
> >
> > To me, with nested spaces the home page is always the same and cannot
be
> > changed. You may want to add a redirect,
but this doesn't change the
fact
> > that the top page is the same.
> >
> >
> > > The effort is to try to avoid the situation where a regular user
lands
> on
> > > the homepage of the wiki (just accessed the wiki or maybe he clicked
> the
> > > logo) and wants to create a document. He enters the title and
presses
> > > "create". Obviously his
intention was to create a page, and, more
often
> > > than not (IMO at least), his actual
intention was to create a top
level
> > > document and not a child document
of the wiki's current homepage.
> > >
> >
> > I agree with this. However, in that case, shouldn't the home page be
> simply
> > *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/* instead of
> > *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/* ?
> >
> > Using short URLs, you could even have the home page under *https://
> > <server>/
> > *and then subpages at *https://<server>/A, **https://<server>/A/B*
and
> so
> > on. This would be in line with what most CMS do and it would fix your
> > issue: any page created from the home is a sub-page at the expected
> level.
> >
> > Image the homepage gets changed to "Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage".
> > > Without this "trick", a regular user would end up, by mistake IMO
(and
> by
> > > using the "next-next-next" mindset), creating the document
> > > "Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage.NewDocument".
> > >
> >
> > As I said above, I actually think we should remove this feature in the
> > context of nested spaces.
> >
> >
> > > Even if the homepage remains the default one, I see no logical
reason
> in
> > > spamming all the new documents with the "Main" prefix, the result
being
> > an
> > > artificially deeper hierarchy and longer URL.
> > >
> >
> > Agreed. As mentioned above, ideally we'd remove it.
> >
> >
> > > If a user really intended to create a document as a child of the
> homepage
> > > (rare usecase IMO), he has all the tools in the UI to simply do so.
> > >
> > > I agree that it's a minor consistency dent, but IMO the benefit
> justifies
> > > it.
> > >
> >
> > I don't quite agree that it's minor. One of the implied goals of
nested
> > spaces is to be able to have consistent
URL naming (I know exactly
where
> > page *https://<server>/A/B/C *is).
Having a special case for Main
breaks
> > this.
> >
> > Similarly, when on the home page on the main wiki, I don't understand
why
> > the breadcrumb shows both the
"home" icon and "Home" text. Why keep
both
> > when the icon would be enough?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Guillaume
> >
> > WDYT? (interested in more opinions on this since I've already had 2
> > > eyebrows raised on this topic :) )
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Eduard
> > >
> > > ---------
> > > [1]
> > >
> > >
> >
>
http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Features/DocumentLifecycle#HByusin…
> > >
> > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
> guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Devs,
> > > >
> > > > I started trying out XE 7.2 (SNAPSHOT from around 12:30 today)
and I
> > was
> > > > very impressed, the changes look quite good!
> > > >
> > > > While playing with it, I had a question about how the "Main"
space is
> > > > handled. Here's what I
did: from .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/, I
clicked
> > the
> > > > "create" button and created a sub page, then a sub-sub page.
Here's
> > what
> > > I
> > > > got:
> > > >
> > > > - .../xwiki/bin/view/SubPage/SubSubPage
> > > >
> > > > Although I was expecting this:
> > > >
> > > > - .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/SubPage/SubSubPage
> > > >
> > > > So I was wondering whether this was the expected behavior, and
> whether
> > it
> > > > had been discussed before?
> > > >
> > > > Congrats & Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Guillaume
5:10 p.m.
Hi Guillaume,
You propose a single top level/root document, but no top level space. How
does that fit into XWiki`s model? What is the reference of this root
document? "xwiki:.WebHome", "xwiki:.", ? How do we interact with it?
Also,
is a random xwiki:Space.Page document supposed to be a child of this
implicit root document?
What we currently do is that we have the Main Wiki > Current Wiki > Top
Level Document > Child Document > Child Document hierarchy. The link to
"Current Wiki" goes to whatever the homepage is configured to be. This does
not mean that the linked document is the parent of "Top Level Document".
The parent of "Top Level Document" is the wiki "Current Wiki". The
homepage
of that wiki may be different, but that does not make the homepage document
a parent of the "Top Level Document".
If you consider the homepage of the wiki as the parent of top level
documents, you will end up creating pages in the "Blog" space, as Marius
exemplified above, because the wiki admin wanted the "Blog" spaces (Nested
Document) to be the homepage for his personalized wiki. We want to allow
more configuration in contrast to requiring more code/content change (which
would be the alternative when enforcing a fixed homepage document).
I`m trying to focus more on the actual impact of this, since IMO it's
better to make a slight effort in understanding why something happens and,
once understood, you either agree with it or live with it, but in both
cases you don`t suffer from the side effect caused by a possible solution
that would be easier to understand but had an unwanted effect.
I`m curious how this turns out in practice.
Thanks,
Eduard
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 5:30 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
Hi Marius,
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea <
mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
pages
homepage
for
at
enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
your
the
so.
understand
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
Hi Guillaume,
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:26 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
but
Hi Caty,
thanks for your message. Please see my answers below.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
7.2
> last week. And based on what Edy said, I'm not the only one who was
> surprised by the current behavior :-)
>
>
>> Currently the concept of main wiki is expressed as the 'home' icon,
Hi,
The current behavior was reached after many discussions.
I understand. However, I only got the time to actually try and test XE is
>> not tied to a particular space. This is something we preserved and is
>> flexible enough for users with custom content to change the location
of
the
folder
> on your computer to be something else than the hard drive itself. I
don't
homepage
or assigned a different space, for a different subwiki.
I understand this. I'm not questioning the current behavior, but the
underlying assumption. Given the new paradigm we're implementing with
nested spaces, why would an user want to change the location of the
homepage? To me, it's like saying that you would want the top level
understand why that would be useful.
The hard-drive is the wiki not the Main space. Or, if you want to be
precise, the entire farm is the hard-drive, a wiki is a partition on
that hard-drive and a space is a folder on a partition. The Main space
is just one of the top level "folders". Blog, XWiki, Sandbox are also
at the top level. And you can create new top level "folders". When you
access XWiki you get redirected to the Main space by default but
someone may want the Blog space to be opened by default.
Do you have specific use cases in mind that I might be missing (other
than
"this feature existed before")?
Also we needed to showcase differently spaces that are top level, vs.
pages
inside
the Main space, while having the limited number of exceptions
created for the breadcrumb.
I think there are 2 separate problems here:
1. Where should we put all of the pages that
are currently in the
"Main"
> space if we decide that not all of them deserve to be top-level
Pages from the Main space are not top level. Main is top level, and
Main is on the same level with Blog, Sandbox and XWiki. Check the
document index tree. I have the feeling you're making a confusion.
I am making an intentional confusion because I think that this is how
end-users are going to perceive it too. I think I understand well enough
XWiki's current model, the reason why there's a Main space to begin with
and the fact that it's just a space among others, not a top-level space by
itself.
However, we cannot expect that level of implicit knowledge from a fresh new
user. As a new user, I'm on "Main", which to me is the top level page, I
create a new page, and it's created next to Main, not under it. That
doesn't fit with my mental model of how nested pages should work. That new
page should be under Main, not at the same level. Do you see what I mean?
As pointed out by Caty, I also understand that there are technical
limitations that explain this behavior and that it's tough to overcome them
in the short amount of time that we have as part of the 7.2 release
timeframe. We'll most likely have to keep the current behavior and live
with it for a while. But I know for sure that it is going to create
confusion for some end users, the same way it did for me :-)
Thanks,
Guillaume
2. Making it possible to have top-level pages
in a coherent manner
>
> For 1., pages in the Main space could stay where they are for now.
"Main"
> would be the legacy space where we put
useful tools for the management
of
your
wiki.
I'm discussing the answer for 2. below.
Also I wouldn't like that all the URL contain the word 'Main' Imagine
that
>> besides the 'xwiki/bin/view/' we would need to also contain the >> space?
>
>
> My very point is that the home page wouldn't (shouldn't?) need to be
> "Main". It would be "". IE, there would be nothing in the URL to
reflect
> it. It would be a representation of the wiki
itself.
>
> I understand that technically this is not feasible right now and that
we
> *need* to have a specific page be the home
page, which is the role
played
> by Main.WebHome. What I'm saying is that
with the new system, I'd
rather
have
*.../xwiki/bin/view/WebHome => **.../xwiki/bin/view/ *would be the
whole wiki. That level would be the top level space (which is exactly
what
> has been implemented by the way). Do you see what I mean?
>
>
>> Although we have a convention that a certain page is displayed as
>> homepage, this is not needed to be in the URL. 'home' icon is a link
> the
homepage, not a physical location. Currently the 'Main' space can
> contain pages useful for the display of the homepage, but is an
'optional'
>> space.
>>
>
> What I' suggesting is precisely that the home page be its own document > the very top of the hierarchy, ABOVE what is
currently known as
> Main.WebHome. This is why while the user is on this page, she should
see
only the
home icon.
Is this making what I mean clearer? I'm just suggesting we push things
one
step further in the direction that has already
been established.
Thanks,
Guillaume
Thanks,
> Caty
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Guillaume Lerouge <
guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Edy,
>> >
>> > thanks for the explanation. Please see my feedback below.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Eduard Moraru < >> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hi,
>> > >
>> > > Yes, "this is not a bug, it's a feature!" :) I had
documented it
in
a
>> > small
>> > > paragraph [1] (see the note) but did not feel it was worthy to be
>> > mentioned
>> > > in the release notes. Please feel free to rephrase if needed.
>> > >
>> > > It's not specifically about "Main", but about the
current wiki's
>> homepage
>> > > (and "Main.WebHome" is the default homepage that can be
changed
from
>> > > administration).
>> > >
>> >
>> > Does this feature (changing the home page) still makes sense in the
>> context
>> > of nested spaces? What is the point to define the home page as
>> ".../A/B/C"
>> > when based on the new system, "C" is a sub-sub page?
>> >
>> > To me, with nested spaces the home page is always the same and
cannot
be
clicked
> > changed. You may want to add a redirect,
but this doesn't change the
fact
> > that the top page is the same.
> >
> >
> > > The effort is to try to avoid the situation where a regular user
lands
>> on
>> > > the homepage of the wiki (just accessed the wiki or maybe he > the
> > > logo) and wants to create a document. He enters the title and
presses
> > > "create". Obviously his
intention was to create a page, and, more
often
> > > than not (IMO at least), his actual
intention was to create a top
level
> > > document and not a child document
of the wiki's current homepage.
> > >
> >
> > I agree with this. However, in that case, shouldn't the home page be
> simply
> > *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/* instead of
> > *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/* ?
> >
> > Using short URLs, you could even have the home page under *https://
> > <server>/
> > *and then subpages at *https://<server>/A, **https://<server>/A/B*
and
>> so
>> > on. This would be in line with what most CMS do and it would fix > >
issue: any page created from the home is a sub-page at the expected
> level.
> >
> > Image the homepage gets changed to "Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage".
> > > Without this "trick", a regular user would end up, by mistake IMO
(and
>> by
>> > > using the "next-next-next" mindset), creating the document
>> > > "Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage.NewDocument".
>> > >
>> >
>> > As I said above, I actually think we should remove this feature in > >
context of nested spaces.
> >
> >
> > > Even if the homepage remains the default one, I see no logical
reason
> in
> > > spamming all the new documents with the "Main" prefix, the result
being
>> > an
>> > > artificially deeper hierarchy and longer URL.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Agreed. As mentioned above, ideally we'd remove it.
>> >
>> >
>> > > If a user really intended to create a document as a child of the
>> homepage
>> > > (rare usecase IMO), he has all the tools in the UI to simply do > >
>
> > > I agree that it's a minor consistency dent, but IMO the benefit
> justifies
> > > it.
> > >
> >
> > I don't quite agree that it's minor. One of the implied goals of
nested
> > spaces is to be able to have consistent
URL naming (I know exactly
where
> > page *https://<server>/A/B/C *is).
Having a special case for Main
breaks
>> > this.
>> >
>> > Similarly, when on the home page on the main wiki, I don't why
http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Features/DocumentLifecycle#HByusin…
> > the breadcrumb shows both the
"home" icon and "Home" text. Why keep
both
> > when the icon would be enough?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Guillaume
> >
> > WDYT? (interested in more opinions on this since I've already had 2
> > > eyebrows raised on this topic :) )
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Eduard
> > >
> > > ---------
> > > [1]
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> >
>
> > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
> guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Devs,
> > > >
> > > > I started trying out XE 7.2 (SNAPSHOT from around 12:30 today)
and I
> > was
> > > > very impressed, the changes look quite good!
> > > >
> > > > While playing with it, I had a question about how the "Main"
space is
> > > > handled. Here's what I
did: from .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/, I
clicked
> > the
> > > > "create" button and created a sub page, then a sub-sub page.
Here's
> > what
> > > I
> > > > got:
> > > >
> > > > - .../xwiki/bin/view/SubPage/SubSubPage
> > > >
> > > > Although I was expecting this:
> > > >
> > > > - .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/SubPage/SubSubPage
> > > >
> > > > So I was wondering whether this was the expected behavior, and
> whether
> > it
> > > > had been discussed before?
> > > >
> > > > Congrats & Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Guillaume
17 Sep
17 Sep
11:46 a.m.
Hi Edy,
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Guillaume,
You propose a single top level/root document, but no top level space. How
does that fit into XWiki`s model? What is the reference of this root
document? "xwiki:.WebHome", "xwiki:.", ? How do we interact with it?
Also,
is a random xwiki:Space.Page document supposed to be a child of this
implicit root document?
Indeed, I'm probably (widely!) underestimating the amount of work needed to
make something like this work and the impact. The reference of the "top
homepage" would indeed have to be something like "xwiki:." (or even just
"[[]]"!).
What we currently do is that we have the Main Wiki
> Current Wiki > Top
Level Document > Child Document > Child Document hierarchy. The link to
"Current Wiki" goes to whatever the homepage is configured to be. This does
not mean that the linked document is the parent of "Top Level Document".
The parent of "Top Level Document" is the wiki "Current Wiki". The
homepage
of that wiki may be different, but that does not make the homepage document
a parent of the "Top Level Document".
Actually you have 2 hierarchies, not one:
- Main Wiki > Top Level Document in the main wiki > Child Document >
Child Document hierarchy
- Main Wiki > Sub-Wiki > Top Level Document > Child Document > Child
Document hierarchy
Which means that there are 2 different types of entities that can live
under "Main Wiki" => it feels to me like a bit of a consistency issue, but
we can't really avoid it at the moment.
If you consider the homepage of the wiki as the parent
of top level
documents, you will end up creating pages in the "Blog" space, as Marius
exemplified above, because the wiki admin wanted the "Blog" spaces (Nested
Document) to be the homepage for his personalized wiki.
No, since my point of view on this is that we shouldn't even allow the home
page to be changed to begin with :-)
We want to allow more configuration in contrast to
requiring more
code/content change (which would be the alternative when enforcing a fixed
homepage document).
Why is that? Why not keep the homepage where it is and let the user put a
{{display}} macro there if needed? I don't really understand the rationale
behind this. Changing the content of the homepage it very easy (one click
on the "Edit" button)...
I`m trying to focus more on the actual impact of this, since IMO it's
better to make a slight effort in understanding why
something happens and,
once understood, you either agree with it or live with it, but in both
cases you don`t suffer from the side effect caused by a possible solution
that would be easier to understand but had an unwanted effect.
Actually the current behavior suits me well overall. The only gripe I have
is with the special treatment when creating pages from the home page. You
can see even see it: when you click on the create button from the home,
first the parent displays "Home" then you have a quick flickering as it
gets hidden in Javascript...
Now I understand that it's better to start with less changes and add things
only as needed. We'll see how things goes.
I`m curious how this turns out in practice.
So am I! I guess we'll see when additional user feedback start coming in :-)
Best,
Guillaume
Thanks,
Eduard
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 5:30 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
is
pages
by
for
> >> the homepage, not a physical location. Currently the 'Main' space
can
be
the
the
more
expected
result
understand
> why
> >> > the breadcrumb shows both the "home" icon and
"Home" text. Why keep
http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Features/DocumentLifecycle#HByusin…
Hi Marius,
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea <
mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
> Hi Guillaume,
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:26 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Caty,
> >
> > thanks for your message. Please see my answers below.
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> > valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> The current behavior was reached after many discussions.
> >>
> >
> > I understand. However, I only got the time to actually try and test
XE
7.2
> last week. And based on what Edy said, I'm not the only one who was
> surprised by the current behavior :-)
>
>
>> Currently the concept of main wiki is expressed as the 'home' icon,
but
> is
> >> not tied to a particular space. This is something we preserved and >>
flexible enough for users with custom content to change the location
of
the
don't
> homepage or assigned a different space, for a
different subwiki.
>
I understand this. I'm not questioning the current behavior, but the
underlying assumption. Given the new paradigm we're implementing with
nested spaces, why would an user want to change the location of the
homepage? To me, it's like saying that you would want the top level
folder
> on your computer to be something else than the hard drive itself. I
understand why that would be useful.
The hard-drive is the wiki not the Main space. Or, if you want to be
precise, the entire farm is the hard-drive, a wiki is a partition on
that hard-drive and a space is a folder on a partition. The Main space
is just one of the top level "folders". Blog, XWiki, Sandbox are also
at the top level. And you can create new top level "folders". When you
access XWiki you get redirected to the Main space by default but
someone may want the Blog space to be opened by default.
Do you have specific use cases in mind that I might be missing (other
than
"this feature existed before")?
Also we needed to showcase differently spaces that are top level, vs.
pages
> inside the Main space, while having the
limited number of exceptions
> created for the breadcrumb.
>
I think there are 2 separate problems here:
1. Where should we put all of the pages that
are currently in the
"Main"
> space if we decide that not all of them deserve to be top-level
Pages from the Main space are not top level. Main is top level, and
Main is on the same level with Blog, Sandbox and XWiki. Check the
document index tree. I have the feeling you're making a confusion.
I am making an intentional confusion because I think that this is how
end-users are going to perceive it too. I think I understand well enough
XWiki's current model, the reason why there's a Main space to begin with
and the fact that it's just a space among others, not a top-level space itself.
However, we cannot expect that level of implicit knowledge from a fresh
new
user. As a new user, I'm on "Main",
which to me is the top level page, I
create a new page, and it's created next to Main, not under it. That
doesn't fit with my mental model of how nested pages should work. That
new
page should be under Main, not at the same level.
Do you see what I mean?
As pointed out by Caty, I also understand that there are technical
limitations that explain this behavior and that it's tough to overcome
them
in the short amount of time that we have as part
of the 7.2 release
timeframe. We'll most likely have to keep the current behavior and live
with it for a while. But I know for sure that it is going to create
confusion for some end users, the same way it did for me :-)
Thanks,
Guillaume
management
2. Making it possible to have top-level pages
in a coherent manner
>
> For 1., pages in the Main space could stay where they are for now.
"Main"
> > would be the legacy space where we put useful tools for the of
homepage
the
your
wiki.
I'm discussing the answer for 2. below.
Also I wouldn't like that all the URL contain the word 'Main' Imagine
that
>> besides the 'xwiki/bin/view/' we would need to also contain the >> space?
>
>
> My very point is that the home page wouldn't (shouldn't?) need to be
> "Main". It would be "". IE, there would be nothing in the URL to
reflect
> it. It would be a representation of the wiki
itself.
>
> I understand that technically this is not feasible right now and that
we
> *need* to have a specific page be the home
page, which is the role
played
> by Main.WebHome. What I'm saying is that
with the new system, I'd
rather
> > have *.../xwiki/bin/view/WebHome => **.../xwiki/bin/view/ *would be whole wiki. That level would be the top level space
(which is exactly
what
> has been implemented by the way). Do you see what I mean?
>
>
>> Although we have a convention that a certain page is displayed as
>> homepage, this is not needed to be in the URL. 'home' icon is a link
> >> contain pages useful for the
display of the homepage, but is an
> 'optional'
> >> space.
> >>
> >
> > What I' suggesting is precisely that the home page be its own
document
at
things
> the very top of the hierarchy, ABOVE what is
currently known as
> Main.WebHome. This is why while the user is on this page, she should
see
> > only the home icon.
> >
> > Is this making what I mean clearer? I'm just suggesting we push one
enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
step further in the direction that has already
been established.
Thanks,
Guillaume
Thanks,
> Caty
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Guillaume Lerouge <
guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Edy,
>> >
>> > thanks for the explanation. Please see my feedback below.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Eduard Moraru < >> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hi,
>> > >
>> > > Yes, "this is not a bug, it's a feature!" :) I had
documented it
in
> a
> >> > small
> >> > > paragraph [1] (see the note) but did not feel it was worthy to
>>
> mentioned
>> > > in the release notes. Please feel free to rephrase if needed.
>> > >
>> > > It's not specifically about "Main", but about the
current wiki's
>> homepage
>> > > (and "Main.WebHome" is the default homepage that can be
changed
from
> >> > > administration).
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > Does this feature (changing the home page) still makes sense in >>
context
>> > of nested spaces? What is the point to define the home page as
>> ".../A/B/C"
>> > when based on the new system, "C" is a sub-sub page?
>> >
>> > To me, with nested spaces the home page is always the same and
cannot
> be
> >> > changed. You may want to add a redirect, but this doesn't change
fact
clicked
> >> the
> >> > > logo) and wants to create a document. He enters the title and
> presses
> >> > > "create". Obviously his intention was to create a page,
and, > > that the top page is the same.
> >
> >
> > > The effort is to try to avoid the situation where a regular user
lands
>> on
>> > > the homepage of the wiki (just accessed the wiki or maybe he > often
> >> > > than not (IMO at least), his actual intention was to create a
top
> level
> >> > > document and not a child document of the wiki's current
homepage.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > I agree with this. However, in that case, shouldn't the home page
be
> >> simply
> >> > *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/* instead of
> >> > *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/* ?
> >> >
> >> > Using short URLs, you could even have the home page under
*https://
> >> > <server>/
> >> > *and then subpages at *https://<server>/A, **https://
<server>/A/B*
and
>> so
>> > on. This would be in line with what most CMS do and it would fix
your
> >> > issue: any page created from the home is a sub-page at the > >> level.
> >> >
> >> > Image the homepage gets changed to
"Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage".
> >> > > Without this
"trick", a regular user would end up, by mistake
IMO
(and
>> by
>> > > using the "next-next-next" mindset), creating the document
>> > > "Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage.NewDocument".
>> > >
>> >
>> > As I said above, I actually think we should remove this feature in
the
> >> > context of nested spaces.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > Even if the homepage remains the default one, I see no logical
> reason
> >> in
> >> > > spamming all the new documents with the "Main" prefix,
the being
>> > an
>> > > artificially deeper hierarchy and longer URL.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Agreed. As mentioned above, ideally we'd remove it.
>> >
>> >
>> > > If a user really intended to create a document as a child of the
>> homepage
>> > > (rare usecase IMO), he has all the tools in the UI to simply do
so.
> >
>
> > > I agree that it's a minor consistency dent, but IMO the benefit
> justifies
> > > it.
> > >
> >
> > I don't quite agree that it's minor. One of the implied goals of
nested
> > spaces is to be able to have consistent
URL naming (I know exactly
where
> > page *https://<server>/A/B/C *is).
Having a special case for Main
breaks
>> > this.
>> >
>> > Similarly, when on the home page on the main wiki, I don't > both
> >> > when the icon would be enough?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >
> >> > Guillaume
> >> >
> >> > WDYT? (interested in more opinions on this since I've already had
2
> > > eyebrows raised on this topic :) )
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Eduard
> > >
> > > ---------
> > > [1]
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> >> > >
> >> > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
> >> guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Hi Devs,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I started trying out XE 7.2 (SNAPSHOT from around 12:30
today)
> and I
> >> > was
> >> > > > very impressed, the changes look quite good!
> >> > > >
> >> > > > While playing with it, I had a question about how the
"Main"
> space is
> >> > > > handled. Here's what I did: from
.../xwiki/bin/view/Main/, I
> clicked
> >> > the
> >> > > > "create" button and created a sub page, then a
sub-sub page.
> Here's
> >> > what
> >> > > I
> >> > > > got:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > - .../xwiki/bin/view/SubPage/SubSubPage
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Although I was expecting this:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > - .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/SubPage/SubSubPage
> >> > > >
> >> > > > So I was wondering whether this was the expected behavior,
and
> >> whether
> >> > it
> >> > > > had been discussed before?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Congrats & Thanks,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Guillaume
4:32 p.m.
On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
Hi Edy,
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Guillaume,
You propose a single top level/root document, but no top level space. How
does that fit into XWiki`s model? What is the reference of this root
document? "xwiki:.WebHome", "xwiki:.", ? How do we interact with it?
Also,
is a random xwiki:Space.Page document supposed to be a child of this
implicit root document?
Indeed, I'm probably (widely!) underestimating the amount of work needed to
make something like this work and the impact. The reference of the "top
homepage" would indeed have to be something like "xwiki:." (or even just
"[[]]"!).
What we currently do is that we have the Main
Wiki > Current Wiki > Top
Level Document > Child Document > Child Document hierarchy. The link to
"Current Wiki" goes to whatever the homepage is configured to be. This does
not mean that the linked document is the parent of "Top Level Document".
The parent of "Top Level Document" is the wiki "Current Wiki". The
homepage
of that wiki may be different, but that does not make the homepage document
a parent of the "Top Level Document".
Actually you have 2 hierarchies, not one:
- Main Wiki > Top Level Document in the main wiki > Child Document >
Child Document hierarchy
- Main Wiki > Sub-Wiki > Top Level Document > Child Document > Child
Document hierarchy
Which means that there are 2 different types of entities that can live
under "Main Wiki" => it feels to me like a bit of a consistency issue, but
we can't really avoid it at the moment.
If you consider the homepage of the wiki as the
parent of top level
documents, you will end up creating pages in the "Blog" space, as Marius
exemplified above, because the wiki admin wanted the "Blog" spaces (Nested
Document) to be the homepage for his personalized wiki.
No, since my point of view on this is that we shouldn't even allow the home
page to be changed to begin with :-)
We want to allow more configuration in contrast
to requiring more
code/content change (which would be the alternative when enforcing a fixed
homepage document).
Why is that? Why not keep the homepage where it is and
let the user put a
{{display}} macro there if needed? I don't really understand the rationale
behind this. Changing the content of the homepage it very easy (one click
on the "Edit" button)...
The upgrade could become a bit more complex if you modify the default home page.
I`m trying to focus more on the actual impact of this, since IMO it's
better to make a slight effort in understanding
why something happens and,
once understood, you either agree with it or live with it, but in both
cases you don`t suffer from the side effect caused by a possible solution
that would be easier to understand but had an unwanted effect.
Actually the current behavior suits me well overall. The only gripe I have
is with the special treatment when creating pages from the home page. You
can see even see it: when you click on the create button from the home,
first the parent displays "Home" then you have a quick flickering as it
gets hidden in Javascript...
Now I understand that it's better to start with less changes and add things
only as needed. We'll see how things goes.
I`m curious how this turns out in practice.
So am I! I guess we'll see when additional user feedback start coming in :-)
Best,
Guillaume
Thanks,
Eduard
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 5:30 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
is
by
can
be
the
the
more
expected
result
keep
http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Features/DocumentLifecycle#HByusin…
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs Hi Marius,
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea <
mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
> Hi Guillaume,
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:26 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Caty,
> >
> > thanks for your message. Please see my answers below.
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> > valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> The current behavior was reached after many discussions.
> >>
> >
> > I understand. However, I only got the time to actually try and test
XE
7.2
> last week. And based on what Edy said, I'm not the only one who was
> surprised by the current behavior :-)
>
>
>> Currently the concept of main wiki is expressed as the 'home' icon,
but
> is
> >> not tied to a particular space. This is something we preserved and >>
flexible enough for users with custom content to change the location
of
the
>> homepage or assigned a different space, for a different subwiki.
>>
>
> I understand this. I'm not questioning the current behavior, but the
> underlying assumption. Given the new paradigm we're implementing with
> nested spaces, why would an user want to change the location of the
> homepage? To me, it's like saying that you would want the top level
folder
> on your computer to be something else than the hard drive itself. I
don't
> understand why that would be useful.
The hard-drive is the wiki not the Main space. Or, if you want to be
precise, the entire farm is the hard-drive, a wiki is a partition on
that hard-drive and a space is a folder on a partition. The Main space
is just one of the top level "folders". Blog, XWiki, Sandbox are also
at the top level. And you can create new top level "folders". When you
access XWiki you get redirected to the Main space by default but
someone may want the Blog space to be opened by default.
>
> Do you have specific use cases in mind that I might be missing (other
than
> "this feature existed before")?
>
> Also we needed to showcase differently spaces that are top level, vs.
pages
>> inside the Main space, while having the limited number of exceptions
>> created for the breadcrumb.
>>
>
> I think there are 2 separate problems here:
>
> 1. Where should we put all of the pages that are currently in the
"Main"
> space if we decide that not all of them deserve to be top-level
pages
Pages from the Main space are not top level. Main is top level, and
Main is on the same level with Blog, Sandbox and XWiki. Check the
document index tree. I have the feeling you're making a confusion.
I am making an intentional confusion because I think that this is how
end-users are going to perceive it too. I think I understand well enough
XWiki's current model, the reason why there's a Main space to begin with
and the fact that it's just a space among others, not a top-level space itself.
However, we cannot expect that level of implicit knowledge from a fresh
new
user. As a new user, I'm on "Main",
which to me is the top level page, I
create a new page, and it's created next to Main, not under it. That
doesn't fit with my mental model of how nested pages should work. That
new
page should be under Main, not at the same level.
Do you see what I mean?
As pointed out by Caty, I also understand that there are technical
limitations that explain this behavior and that it's tough to overcome
them
in the short amount of time that we have as part
of the 7.2 release
timeframe. We'll most likely have to keep the current behavior and live
with it for a while. But I know for sure that it is going to create
confusion for some end users, the same way it did for me :-)
Thanks,
Guillaume
management
2. Making it possible to have top-level pages
in a coherent manner
>
> For 1., pages in the Main space could stay where they are for now.
"Main"
> > would be the legacy space where we put useful tools for the of
the
> your wiki.
>
> I'm discussing the answer for 2. below.
>
> Also I wouldn't like that all the URL contain the word 'Main' Imagine
that
>> besides the 'xwiki/bin/view/' we would need to also contain the
homepage
>> space?
>
>
> My very point is that the home page wouldn't (shouldn't?) need to be
> "Main". It would be "". IE, there would be nothing in the URL to
reflect
> it. It would be a representation of the wiki
itself.
>
> I understand that technically this is not feasible right now and that
we
> *need* to have a specific page be the home
page, which is the role
played
> by Main.WebHome. What I'm saying is that
with the new system, I'd
rather
> > have *.../xwiki/bin/view/WebHome => **.../xwiki/bin/view/ *would be >
whole wiki. That level would be the top level space (which is exactly
what
> has been implemented by the way). Do you see what I mean?
>
>
>> Although we have a convention that a certain page is displayed as
>> homepage, this is not needed to be in the URL. 'home' icon is a link
for
> >> the homepage, not a physical location. Currently the 'Main' space
> >> contain pages useful for the
display of the homepage, but is an
> 'optional'
> >> space.
> >>
> >
> > What I' suggesting is precisely that the home page be its own
document
at
things
> the very top of the hierarchy, ABOVE what is
currently known as
> Main.WebHome. This is why while the user is on this page, she should
see
> > only the home icon.
> >
> > Is this making what I mean clearer? I'm just suggesting we push one
> step further in the direction that has already been established.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Guillaume
>
> Thanks,
>> Caty
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Guillaume Lerouge <
guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Edy,
>> >
>> > thanks for the explanation. Please see my feedback below.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Eduard Moraru <
enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hi,
>> > >
>> > > Yes, "this is not a bug, it's a feature!" :) I had
documented it
in
> a
> >> > small
> >> > > paragraph [1] (see the note) but did not feel it was worthy to
>>
> mentioned
>> > > in the release notes. Please feel free to rephrase if needed.
>> > >
>> > > It's not specifically about "Main", but about the
current wiki's
>> homepage
>> > > (and "Main.WebHome" is the default homepage that can be
changed
from
> >> > > administration).
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > Does this feature (changing the home page) still makes sense in >>
context
>> > of nested spaces? What is the point to define the home page as
>> ".../A/B/C"
>> > when based on the new system, "C" is a sub-sub page?
>> >
>> > To me, with nested spaces the home page is always the same and
cannot
> be
> >> > changed. You may want to add a redirect, but this doesn't change
fact
>> > that the top page is the same.
>> >
>> >
>> > > The effort is to try to avoid the situation where a regular user
lands
>> on
>> > > the homepage of the wiki (just accessed the wiki or maybe he
clicked
> >> the
> >> > > logo) and wants to create a document. He enters the title and
> presses
> >> > > "create". Obviously his intention was to create a page,
and, > often
> >> > > than not (IMO at least), his actual intention was to create a
top
> level
> >> > > document and not a child document of the wiki's current
homepage.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > I agree with this. However, in that case, shouldn't the home page
be
> >> simply
> >> > *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/* instead of
> >> > *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/* ?
> >> >
> >> > Using short URLs, you could even have the home page under
*https://
> >> > <server>/
> >> > *and then subpages at *https://<server>/A, **https://
<server>/A/B*
and
>> so
>> > on. This would be in line with what most CMS do and it would fix
your
> >> > issue: any page created from the home is a sub-page at the > >> level.
> >> >
> >> > Image the homepage gets changed to
"Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage".
> >> > > Without this
"trick", a regular user would end up, by mistake
IMO
(and
>> by
>> > > using the "next-next-next" mindset), creating the document
>> > > "Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage.NewDocument".
>> > >
>> >
>> > As I said above, I actually think we should remove this feature in
the
> >> > context of nested spaces.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > Even if the homepage remains the default one, I see no logical
> reason
> >> in
> >> > > spamming all the new documents with the "Main" prefix,
the being
>> > an
>> > > artificially deeper hierarchy and longer URL.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Agreed. As mentioned above, ideally we'd remove it.
>> >
>> >
>> > > If a user really intended to create a document as a child of the
>> homepage
>> > > (rare usecase IMO), he has all the tools in the UI to simply do
so.
>> > >
>> > > I agree that it's a minor consistency dent, but IMO the benefit
>> justifies
>> > > it.
>> > >
>> >
>> > I don't quite agree that it's minor. One of the implied goals of
nested
>> > spaces is to be able to have consistent URL naming (I know exactly
where
>> > page *https://<server>/A/B/C *is). Having a special case for Main
breaks
>> > this.
>> >
>> > Similarly, when on the home page on the main wiki, I don't
understand
> why
> >> > the breadcrumb shows both the "home" icon and
"Home" text. Why > both
> >> > when the icon would be enough?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >
> >> > Guillaume
> >> >
> >> > WDYT? (interested in more opinions on this since I've already had
2
>>
> > eyebrows raised on this topic :) )
>> > >
>> > > Thanks,
>> > > Eduard
>> > >
>> > > ---------
>> > > [1]
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
> >> > >
> >> > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
> >> guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Hi Devs,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I started trying out XE 7.2 (SNAPSHOT from around 12:30
today)
> and I
> >> > was
> >> > > > very impressed, the changes look quite good!
> >> > > >
> >> > > > While playing with it, I had a question about how the
"Main"
> space is
> >> > > > handled. Here's what I did: from
.../xwiki/bin/view/Main/, I
> clicked
> >> > the
> >> > > > "create" button and created a sub page, then a
sub-sub page.
> Here's
> >> > what
> >> > > I
> >> > > > got:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > - .../xwiki/bin/view/SubPage/SubSubPage
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Although I was expecting this:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > - .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/SubPage/SubSubPage
> >> > > >
> >> > > > So I was wondering whether this was the expected behavior,
and
> >> whether
> >> > it
> >> > > > had been discussed before?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Congrats & Thanks,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Guillaume
18 Sep
18 Sep
1:58 p.m.
On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
Hi Edy,
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Eduard Moraru <enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Yes, that was a bug caused by a limitation of the initial implementation.
It`s now fixed by http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-12592 and will be
included in the 7.2 final release.
Thanks,
Eduard
Hi Guillaume,
You propose a single top level/root document, but no top level space. How
does that fit into XWiki`s model? What is the reference of this root
document? "xwiki:.WebHome", "xwiki:.", ? How do we interact with it?
Also,
is a random xwiki:Space.Page document supposed to
be a child of this
implicit root document?
Indeed, I'm probably (widely!) underestimating the amount of work needed to
make something like this work and the impact. The reference of the "top
homepage" would indeed have to be something like "xwiki:." (or even just
"[[]]"!).
What we currently do is that we have the Main
Wiki > Current Wiki > Top
Level Document > Child Document > Child Document hierarchy. The link to
"Current Wiki" goes to whatever the homepage is configured to be. This
does
not mean that the linked document is the parent
of "Top Level Document".
The parent of "Top Level Document" is the wiki "Current Wiki". The
homepage
of that wiki may be different, but that does not
make the homepage
document
a parent of the "Top Level Document".
Actually you have 2 hierarchies, not one:
- Main Wiki > Top Level Document in the main wiki > Child Document >
Child Document hierarchy
- Main Wiki > Sub-Wiki > Top Level Document > Child Document > Child
Document hierarchy
Which means that there are 2 different types of entities that can live
under "Main Wiki" => it feels to me like a bit of a consistency issue, but
we can't really avoid it at the moment.
If you consider the homepage of the wiki as the
parent of top level
documents, you will end up creating pages in the "Blog" space, as Marius
exemplified above, because the wiki admin wanted the "Blog" spaces
(Nested
Document) to be the homepage for his personalized
wiki.
No, since my point of view on this is that we shouldn't even allow the home
page to be changed to begin with :-)
We want to allow more configuration in contrast
to requiring more
code/content change (which would be the alternative when enforcing a
fixed
homepage document).
Why is that? Why not keep the homepage where it is and let the user put a
{{display}} macro there if needed? I don't really understand the rationale
behind this. Changing the content of the homepage it very easy (one click
on the "Edit" button)...
I`m trying to focus more on the actual impact of this, since IMO it's
better to make a slight effort in understanding
why something happens
and,
once understood, you either agree with it or live
with it, but in both
cases you don`t suffer from the side effect caused by a possible solution
that would be easier to understand but had an unwanted effect.
Actually the current behavior suits me well overall. The only gripe I have
is with the special treatment when creating pages from the home page. You
can see even see it: when you click on the create button from the home,
first the parent displays "Home" then you have a quick flickering as it
gets hidden in Javascript...
Now I understand that it's better to start with less changes and add things
only as needed. We'll see how things goes.
location
I
mean?
Imagine
exactly
should
it
wiki's
the
> > fact
> > >> > that the top page is the same.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > > The effort is to try to avoid the situation where a regular
user
more
page
the
keep
> > both
> > >> > when the icon would be enough?
> > >> >
> > >> > Thanks,
> > >> >
> > >> > Guillaume
> > >> >
> > >> > WDYT? (interested in more opinions on this since I've already
had
_______________________________________________
devs mailing list
devs(a)xwiki.org
http://lists.xwiki.org/mailman/listinfo/devs
I`m curious how this turns out in practice.
So am I! I guess we'll see when additional user feedback start coming in
:-)
Best,
Guillaume
Thanks,
Eduard
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 5:30 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
wrote:
icon,
Hi Marius,
On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea <
mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com> wrote:
> Hi Guillaume,
>
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 6:26 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Caty,
> >
> > thanks for your message. Please see my answers below.
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> > valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> The current behavior was reached after many discussions.
> >>
> >
> > I understand. However, I only got the time to actually try and test
XE
> > 7.2
> > > last week. And based on what Edy said, I'm not the only one who was
> > > surprised by the current behavior :-)
> > >
> > >
> > >> Currently the concept of main wiki is expressed as the 'home'
but
> is
> >> not tied to a particular space. This is something we preserved and
is
> > >> flexible enough for users with custom content to change the > of
> > the
> > >> homepage or assigned a different space, for a different subwiki.
> > >>
> > >
> > > I understand this. I'm not questioning the current behavior, but
the
> > > underlying assumption. Given the
new paradigm we're implementing
with
> > > nested spaces, why would an user
want to change the location of the
> > > homepage? To me, it's like saying that you would want the top level
> > folder
> > > on your computer to be something else than the hard drive itself. I
> don't
> > > understand why that would be useful.
> >
> > The hard-drive is the wiki not the Main space. Or, if you want to be
> > precise, the entire farm is the hard-drive, a wiki is a partition on
> > that hard-drive and a space is a folder on a partition. The Main
space
> > is just one of the top level
"folders". Blog, XWiki, Sandbox are also
> > at the top level. And you can create new top level "folders". When
you
> > access XWiki you get redirected to the
Main space by default but
> > someone may want the Blog space to be opened by default.
> >
> > >
> > > Do you have specific use cases in mind that I might be missing
(other
> > than
> > > "this feature existed before")?
> > >
> > > Also we needed to showcase differently spaces that are top level,
vs.
> > pages
> > >> inside the Main space, while having the limited number of
exceptions
> > >> created for the breadcrumb.
> > >>
> > >
> > > I think there are 2 separate problems here:
> > >
> >
> > > 1. Where should we put all of the pages that are currently in
the
> > "Main"
> > > space if we decide that not all of them deserve to be top-level
> pages
> >
> > Pages from the Main space are not top level. Main is top level, and
> > Main is on the same level with Blog, Sandbox and XWiki. Check the
> > document index tree. I have the feeling you're making a confusion.
> >
>
> I am making an intentional confusion because I think that this is how
> end-users are going to perceive it too. I think I understand well
enough
> XWiki's current model, the reason why
there's a Main space to begin
with
and the
fact that it's just a space among others, not a top-level space
by
itself.
However, we cannot expect that level of implicit knowledge from a fresh
new
> user. As a new user, I'm on "Main", which to me is the top level page,
create a
new page, and it's created next to Main, not under it. That
doesn't fit with my mental model of how nested pages should work. That
new
> page should be under Main, not at the same level. Do you see what I
As pointed out by Caty, I also understand that there are technical
limitations that explain this behavior and that it's tough to overcome
them
in the short amount of time that we have as part
of the 7.2 release
timeframe. We'll most likely have to keep the current behavior and live
with it for a while. But I know for sure that it is going to create
confusion for some end users, the same way it did for me :-)
Thanks,
Guillaume
management
> of
> > > your wiki.
> > >
> > > I'm discussing the answer for 2. below.
> > >
> > > Also I wouldn't like that all the URL contain the word 'Main'
2. Making it possible to have top-level pages
in a coherent manner
>
> For 1., pages in the Main space could stay where they are for now.
"Main"
> > would be the legacy space where we put useful tools for the > > that
> > >> besides the 'xwiki/bin/view/' we would need to also contain
the
> homepage
> > >> space?
> > >
> > >
> > > My very point is that the home page wouldn't (shouldn't?) need to
be
> > > "Main". It would be
"". IE, there would be nothing in the URL to
> reflect
> > > it. It would be a representation of the wiki itself.
> > >
> > > I understand that technically this is not feasible right now and
that
we
the
> > > whole wiki. That level would be the top level space (which is > *need* to have a specific page be the home
page, which is the role
played
> by Main.WebHome. What I'm saying is that
with the new system, I'd
rather
> > have *.../xwiki/bin/view/WebHome => **.../xwiki/bin/view/ *would be > > what
> > > has been implemented by the way). Do you see what I mean?
> > >
> > >
> > >> Although we have a convention that a certain page is displayed as
> > >> homepage, this is not needed to be in the URL. 'home' icon is
a
link
for
> >> the homepage, not a physical location. Currently the 'Main' space
can
> >> contain pages useful for the
display of the homepage, but is an
> 'optional'
> >> space.
> >>
> >
> > What I' suggesting is precisely that the home page be its own
document
> at
> > > the very top of the hierarchy, ABOVE what is currently known as
> > > Main.WebHome. This is why while the user is on this page, she see
> > only the home icon.
> >
> > Is this making what I mean clearer? I'm just suggesting we push
things
> > one
> > > step further in the direction that has already been established.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Guillaume
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >> Caty
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Guillaume Lerouge <
> > guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Hi Edy,
> > >> >
> > >> > thanks for the explanation. Please see my feedback below.
> > >> >
> > >> > On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Eduard Moraru <
> enygma2002(a)gmail.com>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > Hi,
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Yes, "this is not a bug, it's a feature!" :) I
had documented in
> a
> >> > small
> >> > > paragraph [1] (see the note) but did not feel it was worthy to
be
> > >> > mentioned
> > >> > > in the release notes. Please feel free to rephrase if
needed.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > It's not specifically about "Main", but about
the current > > >> homepage
> > >> > > (and "Main.WebHome" is the default homepage that
can be
changed
from
> >> > > administration).
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > Does this feature (changing the home page) still makes sense in
the
>>
context
>> > of nested spaces? What is the point to define the home page as
>> ".../A/B/C"
>> > when based on the new system, "C" is a sub-sub page?
>> >
>> > To me, with nested spaces the home page is always the same and
cannot
> be
> >> > changed. You may want to add a redirect, but this doesn't change
lands
>> on
>> > > the homepage of the wiki (just accessed the wiki or maybe he
clicked
> >> the
> >> > > logo) and wants to create a document. He enters the title and
> presses
> >> > > "create". Obviously his intention was to create a page,
and, > often
> >> > > than not (IMO at least), his actual intention was to create a
top
> level
> >> > > document and not a child document of the wiki's current
homepage.
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> > I agree with this. However, in that case, shouldn't the home
be
expected
in
> >> simply
> >> > *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/* instead of
> >> > *https://<server>/xwiki/bin/view/Main/* ?
> >> >
> >> > Using short URLs, you could even have the home page under
*https://
> >> > <server>/
> >> > *and then subpages at *https://<server>/A, **https://
<server>/A/B*
and
>> so
>> > on. This would be in line with what most CMS do and it would fix
your
> >> > issue: any page created from the home is a sub-page at the > >> level.
> >> >
> >> > Image the homepage gets changed to
"Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage".
> >> > > Without this
"trick", a regular user would end up, by mistake
IMO
> > (and
> > >> by
> > >> > > using the "next-next-next" mindset), creating the
document
> > >> > > "Some.Deep.Document.As.Homepage.NewDocument".
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> > As I said above, I actually think we should remove this feature
the
> >> > context of nested spaces.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > Even if the homepage remains the default one, I see no logical
> reason
> >> in
> >> > > spamming all the new documents with the "Main" prefix,
the
result
> > being
> > >> > an
> > >> > > artificially deeper hierarchy and longer URL.
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> > Agreed. As mentioned above, ideally we'd remove it.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > > If a user really intended to create a document as a child of
> > >> homepage
> > >> > > (rare usecase IMO), he has all the tools in the UI to simply
do
> so.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I agree that it's a minor consistency dent, but IMO the
benefit
> > >> justifies
> > >> > > it.
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> > I don't quite agree that it's minor. One of the implied
goals of
> > nested
> > >> > spaces is to be able to have consistent URL naming (I know
exactly
> > where
> > >> > page *https://<server>/A/B/C *is). Having a special case
for
Main
breaks
>> > this.
>> >
>> > Similarly, when on the home page on the main wiki, I don't
understand
> why
> >> > the breadcrumb shows both the "home" icon and
"Home" text. Why 2
http://platform.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/Features/DocumentLifecycle#HByusin…
>>
> > eyebrows raised on this topic :) )
>> > >
>> > > Thanks,
>> > > Eduard
>> > >
>> > > ---------
>> > > [1]
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Guillaume Lerouge <
> > >> guillaume(a)xwiki.com>
> > >> > > wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Hi Devs,
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > I started trying out XE 7.2 (SNAPSHOT from around 12:30
today)
> > and I
> > >> > was
> > >> > > > very impressed, the changes look quite good!
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > While playing with it, I had a question about how the
"Main"
> > space is
> > >> > > > handled. Here's what I did: from
.../xwiki/bin/view/Main/, I
> > clicked
> > >> > the
> > >> > > > "create" button and created a sub page, then
a sub-sub page.
> > Here's
> > >> > what
> > >> > > I
> > >> > > > got:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > - .../xwiki/bin/view/SubPage/SubSubPage
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Although I was expecting this:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > - .../xwiki/bin/view/Main/SubPage/SubSubPage
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > So I was wondering whether this was the expected
behavior,
and
>
>> whether
> >> > it
> >> > > > had been discussed before?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Congrats & Thanks,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Guillaume
3286
days inactive
3293
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12 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) -
Eduard Moraru -
Guillaume Lerouge -
Marius Dumitru Florea