4 Apr
2007
4 Apr
'07
7:37 a.m.
I m using the XWiki farm and although I am stoked about the capabilities to
add properties, create classes and use document as objects I still lack the
complete understanding of the inner relationships and have to interpret
existing code examples, the API docu and use trial and error for making
(slow) progress. Here are two categories of questions, I intentionally did
not post as separate items, since others might encounter the same:
Category Bigger Picture:
- I started creating my application using the current release on the
xwiki.com farm, how much rewriting do I have to do after XWIKI V1.0 will be
released? None I assume, but I want to make sure.
- How is the visibility of references across spaces/pages? I assume
references created locally on a page (e.g., $mydoc) stay local, means if you
want for example work with one document on the menu and the toolbar and the
main page, you have to create a kind of administrator object, which can be
used across the xwiki or space. What is the recommended practice here?
- How is the visibility of Objects across pages? I noticed that a link to
another page from the menu page had the question mark behind it, if the home
page was shown on the main page, but was available, if one of my own pages
are on the main page. This suggests, although the menu and the home page
have the same parent (do they?) and my own created page shares only the same
root (xwiki I assume) with the menu page that there are mechanisms I don't
understand. Please help
- I would volunteer to create a docu about how to use the API, if I
understood the inner guts of it. When is a documentation planned with some
examples, who is in charge of it and could help?
- Are there any recommended practices for how to use HTML constructs and the
implication on how the panels and the main page look like then? E.g., using
frame, iframe
- How to I archive the code I created? Any export/import mechanism
available?
Category: How to do ....
- How do I change a value of a property of an object and commit it so it is
stored in the database?
- How do I use the property "Database List Class", it seems very powerful in
creating dynamic lists of values, references to other objects etc. but I am
unable to decipher how to use it.
-How do I create Classes inheriting other Classes I created?
Thanks in advance
Uwe
--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Xwiki.com-API-stability-and-Class-Object-model-tf3524…
Sent from the XWiki- Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
4 Apr
4 Apr
3:15 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
Hi Uwe,
On Apr 4, 2007, at 7:37 AM, Oova wrote:
I m using the XWiki farm and although I am stoked about the
capabilities to
add properties, create classes and use document as objects I still
lack the
complete understanding of the inner relationships and have to
interpret
existing code examples, the API docu and use trial and error for
making
(slow) progress. Here are two categories of questions, I
intentionally did
not post as separate items, since others might encounter the same:
Category Bigger Picture:
- I started creating my application using the current release on the
xwiki.com farm, how much rewriting do I have to do after XWIKI V1.0
will be
released? None I assume, but I want to make sure.
The farm is upgraded when new releases come out but we're lagging a
bit behind. I think the farm is currently on 1.0 Beta 3. This means
that you won't have anything to change when we upgrade to Beta 6 and
later 1.0, etc.
- How is the visibility of references across
spaces/pages? I assume
references created locally on a page (e.g., $mydoc) stay local,
means if you
want for example work with one document on the menu and the toolbar
and the
main page, you have to create a kind of administrator object, which
can be
used across the xwiki or space. What is the recommended practice here?
Have you tried it? I don't have the time right now but I'd say the
scope is global.
- How is the visibility of Objects across pages? I
noticed that a
link to
another page from the menu page had the question mark behind it, if
the home
page was shown on the main page, but was available, if one of my
own pages
are on the main page. This suggests, although the menu and the home
page
have the same parent (do they?) and my own created page shares only
the same
root (xwiki I assume) with the menu page that there are mechanisms
I don't
understand. Please help
A full page name has the space mentioned as in Space.Page (e.g.
Main.WebHome). If on a page from a different space you include pages
from another space you need to use the full name with the space.
Otherwise it's not required.
- I would volunteer to create a docu about how to use
the API, if I
understood the inner guts of it. When is a documentation planned
with some
examples, who is in charge of it and could help?
Have you checked the documentation on http://xwiki.org? What is
missing? Everyone is in charge... It's a wiki. You see something that
is required, you volunteer, you ask on the list first and explain
what you want to do and when you get agreement, you edit pages on
xwiki.org and implement it.
I do look after xwiki.org to ensure it stays consistent, has a good
quality, etc.
- Are there any recommended practices for how to use
HTML
constructs and the
implication on how the panels and the main page look like then?
E.g., using
frame, iframe
Not that I know of. General rule is to use the minimum of HTML.
- How to I archive the code I created? Any
export/import mechanism
available?
Have you checked the documentation on xwiki.org? :-)
I'm not giving you the answer as I want to ensure this is something
easy to find out. If you don't find it easily please let us know
where you were expecting it so that we can improve the documentation!
Category: How to do ....
- How do I change a value of a property of an object and commit it
so it is
stored in the database?
Just edit the property and save the page. If you're talking
programatically, then set the value and call $doc.save() (I haven't
tried it so I'm not sure).
- How do I use the property "Database List
Class", it seems very
powerful in
creating dynamic lists of values, references to other objects etc.
but I am
unable to decipher how to use it.
Never used it
-How do I create Classes inheriting other Classes I
created?
You can't (AFAIK).
Thanks
-Vincent
5:04 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
Hi Vincent, Thanks for the prompt response, Please see my answers below. I
took out the pieces, which are answered.
vmassol wrote:
Hi Uwe,
On Apr 4, 2007, at 7:37 AM, Oova wrote:
--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Xwiki.com-API-stability-and-Class-Object-model-tf3524…
Sent from the XWiki- Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
- How is the visibility of references across spaces/pages? I assume
references created locally on a page (e.g., $mydoc) stay local,
means if you
want for example work with one document on the menu and the toolbar
and the
main page, you have to create a kind of administrator object, which
can be
used across the xwiki or space. What is the recommended practice here?
Have you tried it? I don't have the time right now but I'd say the
scope is global.
I tried, and the vairables were not global. Mistake?Design?Problem I had?
- I would volunteer to create a docu about how to
use the API, if I
understood the inner guts of it. When is a documentation planned
with some
examples, who is in charge of it and could help?
Have you checked the documentation on http://xwiki.org? What is
missing? Everyone is in charge... It's a wiki. You see something that
is required, you volunteer, you ask on the list first and explain
what you want to do and when you get agreement, you edit pages on
xwiki.org and implement it.
I do look after xwiki.org to ensure it stays consistent, has a good
quality, etc.
Vincent, I spent hours trying to understand the meaning of the methods and
their parameters in the API docu. After I thought I had a hunch, I tried
them and failed in approx. 60% of the cases (which just means I didn't
understand). The docu is generated automatically and only if somebody
added a comment to the method, you have additional information. Example:
getAttachmentURL(java.lang.String filename, java.lang.String action) ,
what is "action"? I have no clue, other parameters I am clueless about is
'key'. What does the $context really mean and how do I use it correctly?
What does the method getProtectedContext() do, the notion of
protectedContext is new to me, etc. etc. Did I miss a whole documentation,
which explains such things? I hope I was more clear what I meant. And I
understand it is a wiki and everybody is invited to contribute, but I need
to understand the architecture and concept first, before I start
documenting it. Maybe it is just me.
- How to I archive the code I created? Any
export/import mechanism
available?
Have you checked the documentation on xwiki.org? :-)
I'm not giving you the answer as I want to ensure this is something
easy to find out. If you don't find it easily please let us know
where you were expecting it so that we can improve the documentation!
I was looking for import/export with search function and found one
relevant document from you
http://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/AdminGuide/ImportExport which doesn't
apply to users of the farm. What did I miss?
Thanks
-Vincent
--
You receive this message as a subscriber of the xwiki-users(a)objectweb.org
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To unsubscribe: mailto:xwiki-users-unsubscribe@objectweb.org
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6:31 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
On Apr 4, 2007, at 5:04 PM, Oova wrote:
Hi Vincent, Thanks for the prompt response, Please see my answers
below. I
took out the pieces, which are answered.
[snip]
>> - How is the visibility of references across
spaces/pages? I assume
>> references created locally on a page (e.g., $mydoc) stay local,
>> means if you
>> want for example work with one document on the menu and the toolbar
>> and the
>> main page, you have to create a kind of administrator object, which
>> can be
>> used across the xwiki or space. What is the recommended practice
>> here?
>
> Have you tried it? I don't have the time right now but I'd say the
> scope is global.
>
> I tried, and the vairables were not global. Mistake?Design?Problem
> I had?
Cool then, I was worried the scope was global :)
I can think of 2 ways to share data:
1) Use the Servlet scopes: Application scope, Session scope or
Request scope. You can get access to the request using $request. The
session can be obtained with $request.getSession(), etc.
2) Use the XWiki Context:
$context.put("mykey", someObject);
and
$context.get("mykey")
>> - I would volunteer to create a docu about how
to use the API, if I
>> understood the inner guts of it. When is a documentation planned
>> with some
>> examples, who is in charge of it and could help?
>
> Have you checked the documentation on http://xwiki.org? What is
> missing? Everyone is in charge... It's a wiki. You see something that
> is required, you volunteer, you ask on the list first and explain
> what you want to do and when you get agreement, you edit pages on
> xwiki.org and implement it.
>
> I do look after xwiki.org to ensure it stays consistent, has a good
> quality, etc.
>
> Vincent, I spent hours trying to understand the meaning of the
> methods and
> their parameters in the API docu. After I thought I had a hunch, I
> tried
> them and failed in approx. 60% of the cases (which just means I
> didn't
> understand).
40% is quite good seen the low level of comments... :)
> The docu is generated automatically and only if
somebody
> added a comment to the method, you have additional information.
> Example:
> getAttachmentURL(java.lang.String filename, java.lang.String
> action) ,
> what is "action"? I have no clue, other parameters I am clueless
> about is
> 'key'. What does the $context really mean and how do I use it
> correctly?
> What does the method getProtectedContext() do, the notion of
> protectedContext is new to me, etc. etc. Did I miss a whole
> documentation,
> which explains such things? I hope I was more clear what I meant.
Yes, and all your points are very valid. We're missing a developer's
guide. We discussed this with Jean-Vincent the other day and we came
up with the following ideas:
http://www.nabble.com/Developer%27s-Guide-improvements-ideas-
tf3455730.html#a9641200
Right now, I think the easiest way for someone to develop on top of
XWiki is by looking at examples:
- by looking at existing pages sources
- by looking in the Code zone on xwiki.org
Now of course, once you figure out what something is doing, help is
welcome to improve the doco.
> And I
> understand it is a wiki and everybody is invited to contribute,
> but I need
> to understand the architecture and concept first, before I start
> documenting it. Maybe it is just me.
No it's not you... Documentation isn't too good on the development side.
>
>> - How to I archive the code I created? Any export/import mechanism
>> available?
>
> Have you checked the documentation on xwiki.org? :-)
>
> I'm not giving you the answer as I want to ensure this is something
> easy to find out. If you don't find it easily please let us know
> where you were expecting it so that we can improve the documentation!
>
> I was looking for import/export with search function and found one
> relevant document from you
> http://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/AdminGuide/ImportExport which
> doesn't
> apply to users of the farm. What did I miss?
ok so you found the page, cool. Why do you say it doesn't apply to
users of the farm?
Thanks
-Vincent
6:59 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
I am very sympathetic to Uwe's plight, as even with the Javadoc I was
all but lost until I actually started running it under Eclipse, where I
could follow references through all of the indirections and blind
interfaces.
An idea that I had some time ago got some discussion, but no action
(including from me): have XWiki pages that import the Javadoc through a
filter that decorates parts of it with comment blocks for people to
scribble on, so that our collective understanding can accumulate bit by
bit and the real Javadoc comments can be improved.
I think the reason that it never went anywhere was that, in addition to
not having a lot of time (despite knowing that it would save a lot more
time than it cost us), we're all such a lot of incurable GEEKS that we
had to architect a perfect, scalable, future-proof solution before
beginning to work. Ironic enough since the whole wiki concept is about
creating an environment where ideas can be developed together starting
with just the barest seed and proving ideas as they are put forward,
scrapping them and starting over when it gets too hard to continue in
one direction.
Now that I think of it, one reason that I didn't get anywhere in trying
something like that was that I was unable to locate an HTML DOM library
that I could read the pages into, decorate and display.
I think I'm going to start another Idea page...
brain[sic]
-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent Massol [mailto:vincent@massol.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 11:31 AM
To: xwiki-users(a)objectweb.org
Subject: Re: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and
Class/Object model
On Apr 4, 2007, at 5:04 PM, Oova wrote:
Hi Vincent, Thanks for the prompt response, Please see my answers
below. I took out the pieces, which are answered.
[snip]
>> - How is the visibility of references
across
spaces/pages? I assume
>> references created locally on a page
(e.g., $mydoc) stay local,
>> means if you want for example work with one document on
the menu and
>> the toolbar and the main page, you have
to create a kind of
>> administrator object, which can be used across the xwiki
or space.
>> What is the recommended practice here?
>
> Have you tried it? I don't have the time right now but I'd say the
> scope is global.
>
> I tried, and the vairables were not global.
Mistake?Design?Problem I
> had?
Cool then, I was worried the scope was global :)
I can think of 2 ways to share data:
1) Use the Servlet scopes: Application scope, Session scope
or Request scope. You can get access to the request using
$request. The session can be obtained with $request.getSession(), etc.
2) Use the XWiki Context:
$context.put("mykey", someObject);
and
$context.get("mykey")
>> - I would volunteer to create a docu
about how to use the
API, if I
>> understood the inner guts of it. When is
a documentation planned
>> with some examples, who is in charge of it and could help?
>
> Have you checked the documentation on http://xwiki.org? What is
> missing? Everyone is in charge... It's a wiki. You see
something that
> is required, you volunteer, you ask on the
list first and explain
> what you want to do and when you get agreement, you edit pages on
> xwiki.org and implement it.
>
> I do look after xwiki.org to ensure it stays consistent,
has a good
> quality, etc.
>
> Vincent, I spent hours trying to understand the meaning of the
> methods and their parameters in the API docu. After I
thought I had a
> hunch, I tried them and failed in approx. 60%
of the cases (which
> just means I didn't understand).
40% is quite good seen the low level of comments... :)
> The docu is generated automatically and only
if somebody added a
> comment to the method, you have additional information.
> Example:
> getAttachmentURL(java.lang.String filename, java.lang.String
> action) ,
> what is "action"? I have no clue, other parameters I am clueless
> about is 'key'. What does the $context really mean and how
do I use
> it correctly?
> What does the method getProtectedContext() do, the notion of
> protectedContext is new to me, etc. etc. Did I miss a whole
> documentation, which explains such things? I hope I was more clear
> what I meant.
Yes, and all your points are very valid. We're missing a
developer's guide. We discussed this with Jean-Vincent the
other day and we came up with the following ideas:
http://www.nabble.com/Developer%27s-Guide-improvements-ideas-
tf3455730.html#a9641200
Right now, I think the easiest way for someone to develop on
top of XWiki is by looking at examples:
- by looking at existing pages sources
- by looking in the Code zone on xwiki.org
Now of course, once you figure out what something is doing,
help is welcome to improve the doco.
> And I
> understand it is a wiki and everybody is invited to
contribute, but I
> need to understand the architecture and
concept first,
before I start
> documenting it. Maybe it is just me.
No it's not you... Documentation isn't too good on the
development side.
>
>> - How to I archive the code I created? Any export/import
mechanism
>> available?
>
> Have you checked the documentation on xwiki.org? :-)
>
> I'm not giving you the answer as I want to ensure this is
something
> easy to find out. If you don't find it
easily please let us know
> where you were expecting it so that we can improve the
documentation!
>
> I was looking for import/export with search function and found one
> relevant document from you
> http://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/AdminGuide/ImportExport which
> doesn't apply to users of the farm. What did I miss?
ok so you found the page, cool. Why do you say it doesn't
apply to users of the farm?
Thanks
-Vincent
7:29 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
On Apr 4, 2007, at 6:59 PM, THOMAS, BRIAN M ((ATTSI)) wrote:
I am very sympathetic to Uwe's plight, as even
with the Javadoc I was
all but lost until I actually started running it under Eclipse,
where I
could follow references through all of the indirections and blind
interfaces.
An idea that I had some time ago got some discussion, but no action
(including from me): have XWiki pages that import the Javadoc
through a
filter that decorates parts of it with comment blocks for people to
scribble on, so that our collective understanding can accumulate
bit by
bit and the real Javadoc comments can be improved.
I think the reason that it never went anywhere was that, in
addition to
not having a lot of time (despite knowing that it would save a lot
more
time than it cost us), we're all such a lot of incurable GEEKS that we
had to architect a perfect, scalable, future-proof solution before
beginning to work.
how true... So we end up doing nothing in the end...
Ironic enough since the whole wiki concept is about
creating an environment where ideas can be developed together starting
with just the barest seed and proving ideas as they are put forward,
scrapping them and starting over when it gets too hard to continue in
one direction.
Now that I think of it, one reason that I didn't get anywhere in
trying
something like that was that I was unable to locate an HTML DOM
library
that I could read the pages into, decorate and display.
I think I'm going to start another Idea page...
Actually there's something similar that exists: docweb (See http://
doc.java.sun.com/DocWeb/)
Of course it would be a killer app if we could make this in xwiki.
The killer feature would be of course that after review the changes
are incorporated in SVN (using svnkit for example).
Thanks
-Vincent
-----Original
Message-----
From: Vincent Massol [mailto:vincent@massol.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 11:31 AM
To: xwiki-users(a)objectweb.org
Subject: Re: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and
Class/Object model
On Apr 4, 2007, at 5:04 PM, Oova wrote:
--
You receive this message as a subscriber of the xwiki-
users(a)objectweb.org mailing list.
To unsubscribe: mailto:xwiki-users-unsubscribe@objectweb.org
For general help: mailto:sympa@objectweb.org?subject=help
ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/
wws
Hi Vincent, Thanks for the prompt response, Please see my answers
below. I took out the pieces, which are answered.
[snip]
>> - How is the visibility of references
across
spaces/pages? I assume
>> references created locally on a page
(e.g., $mydoc) stay local,
>> means if you want for example work with one document on
the menu and
>> the toolbar and the main page, you have
to create a kind of
>> administrator object, which can be used across the xwiki
or space.
>> What is the recommended practice here?
>
> Have you tried it? I don't have the time right now but I'd say the
> scope is global.
>
> I tried, and the vairables were not global.
Mistake?Design?Problem I
> had?
Cool then, I was worried the scope was global :)
I can think of 2 ways to share data:
1) Use the Servlet scopes: Application scope, Session scope
or Request scope. You can get access to the request using
$request. The session can be obtained with $request.getSession(),
etc.
2) Use the XWiki Context:
$context.put("mykey", someObject);
and
$context.get("mykey")
>> - I would volunteer to create a docu
about how to use the
API, if I
>> understood the inner guts of it. When is
a documentation planned
>> with some examples, who is in charge of it and could help?
>
> Have you checked the documentation on http://xwiki.org? What is
> missing? Everyone is in charge... It's a wiki. You see
something that
> is required, you volunteer, you ask on the
list first and explain
> what you want to do and when you get agreement, you edit pages on
> xwiki.org and implement it.
>
> I do look after xwiki.org to ensure it stays consistent,
has a good
> quality, etc.
>
> Vincent, I spent hours trying to understand the meaning of the
> methods and their parameters in the API docu. After I
thought I had a
> hunch, I tried them and failed in approx. 60%
of the cases (which
> just means I didn't understand).
40% is quite good seen the low level of comments... :)
> The docu is generated automatically and only
if somebody added a
> comment to the method, you have additional information.
> Example:
> getAttachmentURL(java.lang.String filename, java.lang.String
> action) ,
> what is "action"? I have no clue, other parameters I am clueless
> about is 'key'. What does the $context really mean and how
do I use
> it correctly?
> What does the method getProtectedContext() do, the notion of
> protectedContext is new to me, etc. etc. Did I miss a whole
> documentation, which explains such things? I hope I was more clear
> what I meant.
Yes, and all your points are very valid. We're missing a
developer's guide. We discussed this with Jean-Vincent the
other day and we came up with the following ideas:
http://www.nabble.com/Developer%27s-Guide-improvements-ideas-
tf3455730.html#a9641200
Right now, I think the easiest way for someone to develop on
top of XWiki is by looking at examples:
- by looking at existing pages sources
- by looking in the Code zone on xwiki.org
Now of course, once you figure out what something is doing,
help is welcome to improve the doco.
> And I
> understand it is a wiki and everybody is invited to
contribute, but I
> need to understand the architecture and
concept first,
before I start
> documenting it. Maybe it is just me.
No it's not you... Documentation isn't too good on the
development side.
>
>> - How to I archive the code I created? Any export/import
mechanism
>> available?
>
> Have you checked the documentation on xwiki.org? :-)
>
> I'm not giving you the answer as I want to ensure this is
something
> easy to find out. If you don't find it
easily please let us know
> where you were expecting it so that we can improve the
documentation!
>
> I was looking for import/export with search function and found one
> relevant document from you
> http://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/AdminGuide/ImportExport which
> doesn't apply to users of the farm. What did I miss?
ok so you found the page, cool. Why do you say it doesn't
apply to users of the farm?
Thanks
-Vincent
7:58 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
Actually there's something similar that exists: docweb (See http://
doc.java.sun.com/DocWeb/)
Of course it would be a killer app if we could make this in xwiki.
The killer feature would be of course that after review the
changes are incorporated in SVN (using svnkit for example).
If by "killer feature" you mean the one that killed the idea, I'll
agree...
We can gain a great deal of benefit (including support time not stolen
from developers) if we can get something going and start collecting
content and helping keep users off our backs; worrying about how to
incorporate the content into the code can wait for when we have some
content to incorporate. If you have to cut and paste the content by
hand it's still loads quicker than having to make it up yourself... And
besides, it's the Wiki Way...
Thanks
-Vincent
8:09 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
On Apr 4, 2007, at 7:58 PM, THOMAS, BRIAN M ((ATTSI)) wrote:
I wish this were true... I don't think a second that it'll work
though as:
1) users will say that they cannot document if they don't know what
it does
2) once users know what it does, they usually go away
3) users don't like to document anymore than developers like it
:)
But I like the idea... and would be game to try it... if someone
else implements it... (all my time is currently used for the 1.0
release)
Actually there's something similar that exists: docweb (See http://
doc.java.sun.com/DocWeb/)
Of course it would be a killer app if we could make this in xwiki.
The killer feature would be of course that after review the
changes are incorporated in SVN (using svnkit for example).
If by "killer feature" you mean the one that killed the idea, I'll
agree...
We can gain a great deal of benefit (including support time not stolen
from developers) if we can get something going and start collecting
content and helping keep users off our backs; worrying about how to
incorporate the content into the code can wait for when we have some
content to incorporate. If you have to cut and paste the content by
hand it's still loads quicker than having to make it up
yourself... And
besides, it's the Wiki Way...
Yeah...
Thanks
-Vincent
8:25 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
I wish this were true... I don't think a second that it'll
work though as:
1) users will say that they cannot document if they don't
know what it does
2) once users know what it does, they usually go away
3) users don't like to document anymore than developers like it
:)
Your points are generally true, but when you talk of "users" you're not
necessarily talking of these users. I'm talking about people like me
who would have loved it if someone had just told them this or that
little tidbit of information, and gladly contribute it, especially when
it's in the context of the document
But I like the idea... and would be game to try it...
if
someone else implements it... (all my time is currently used
for the 1.0
release)
The only reason I haven't already made a start of it is that I haven't
found an HTML DOM parser. Is there one in the myriad of libraries that
come with XWiki?
5 Apr
5 Apr
9:48 p.m.
Guys,
I must be another breed, I barely follow you, 'these' users and 'those'
users, automatically generated comment pages for users to fill it out,
etc..... I am just lost or too old fashioned.
My humble opinion is as follows. In house building as in software, if you
want to enable somebody else to build an application (house) you give them a
description, what kind of particular applications (houses) you especially
are qualified to help building FASTER and BETTER than usual (Benefits
overview and tools to gain those benefits). You also write, what kind of
skill set might be useful to take advantage of the tools your provide. Then
you provide the architecture (blueprint, ....) and explain what kind of
interfaces (for walls, windows, plumbing, roofing,...) you created to enable
others to build. To expedite the break-in you give some sample applications
illustrating how the architecture, interfaces and tools helped gain the
benefits for some use cases. And I am sorry, no offense, you do not ask the
engineer who designed the software kit/ housing builder kit do document it,
otherwise it becomes a kit from highly skilled engineers for other highly
skilled engineers written in a highly specialized technise language, which
the target audience might not speak. You normally ask a guinea pig out of
the targeted audience to try to document, what it understands and let it
build at least one application (house) using the tools provided. And you
nurture the guinea pig with enough food, encouragement and help, so the
snowball effect making the whole target audience aware of your great stuff
can start and you as the engineer can go back cranking out the next great SW
and tool for even better applications and houses. Making sense? Any
agreement?
I am a guinea pig, I am eager to use Xwiki, because for some reason, I think
XWiki is a great concept (don't let me go into the 'Crossing the chasm
modeling, or the 4 steps of the epiphany', both great models of how to
establish innovation in the market place successfully and go beyond the
innovator's initial excitement). But you need to let the targeted audience
pick-up the momentum.
Enough Philosophy, if there is any agreement on what I said before, let me,
Guillaume and other 'users' spread the word in a lower level technise. To
enable us we need to understand
- targeted user (groups)
- architecture
- concept of object model and API
- guts (and not only nice webpages) of successful applications of the XWiki
(or is the XWikis main purpose to create nice looking webpages? I did not
think so)
Uwe
THOMAS, BRIAN M (ATTSI) wrote:
--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Xwiki.com-API-stability-and-Class-Object-model-tf3524…
Sent from the XWiki- Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
I wish this were true... I don't think a second that it'll
work though as:
1) users will say that they cannot document if they don't
know what it does
2) once users know what it does, they usually go away
3) users don't like to document anymore than developers like it
:)
Your points are generally true, but when you talk of "users" you're not
necessarily talking of these users. I'm talking about people like me
who would have loved it if someone had just told them this or that
little tidbit of information, and gladly contribute it, especially when
it's in the context of the document
But I like the idea... and would be game to try
it... if
someone else implements it... (all my time is currently used
for the 1.0
release)
The only reason I haven't already made a start of it is that I haven't
found an HTML DOM parser. Is there one in the myriad of libraries that
come with XWiki?
--
You receive this message as a subscriber of the xwiki-users(a)objectweb.org
mailing list.
To unsubscribe: mailto:xwiki-users-unsubscribe@objectweb.org
For general help: mailto:sympa@objectweb.org?subject=help
ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/wws
6 Apr
6 Apr
12:32 a.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] RE: Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
Well said!
You can ask the developers for assistance whenever you have difficulties
understanding something.
Sergiu
On 4/5/07, Oova <ping.scan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Guys,
I must be another breed, I barely follow you, 'these' users and 'those'
users, automatically generated comment pages for users to fill it out,
etc..... I am just lost or too old fashioned.
My humble opinion is as follows. In house building as in software, if you
want to enable somebody else to build an application (house) you give them
a
description, what kind of particular applications (houses) you especially
are qualified to help building FASTER and BETTER than usual (Benefits
overview and tools to gain those benefits). You also write, what kind of
skill set might be useful to take advantage of the tools your provide.
Then
you provide the architecture (blueprint, ....) and explain what kind of
interfaces (for walls, windows, plumbing, roofing,...) you created to
enable
others to build. To expedite the break-in you give some sample
applications
illustrating how the architecture, interfaces and tools helped gain the
benefits for some use cases. And I am sorry, no offense, you do not ask
the
engineer who designed the software kit/ housing builder kit do document
it,
otherwise it becomes a kit from highly skilled engineers for other highly
skilled engineers written in a highly specialized technise language, which
the target audience might not speak. You normally ask a guinea pig out of
the targeted audience to try to document, what it understands and let it
build at least one application (house) using the tools provided. And you
nurture the guinea pig with enough food, encouragement and help, so the
snowball effect making the whole target audience aware of your great stuff
can start and you as the engineer can go back cranking out the next great
SW
and tool for even better applications and houses. Making sense? Any
agreement?
I am a guinea pig, I am eager to use Xwiki, because for some reason, I
think
XWiki is a great concept (don't let me go into the 'Crossing the chasm
modeling, or the 4 steps of the epiphany', both great models of how to
establish innovation in the market place successfully and go beyond the
innovator's initial excitement). But you need to let the targeted audience
pick-up the momentum.
Enough Philosophy, if there is any agreement on what I said before, let
me,
Guillaume and other 'users' spread the word in a lower level technise. To
enable us we need to understand
- targeted user (groups)
- architecture
- concept of object model and API
- guts (and not only nice webpages) of successful applications of the
XWiki
(or is the XWikis main purpose to create nice looking webpages? I did not
think so)
Uwe
THOMAS, BRIAN M (ATTSI) wrote:
--
http://purl.org/net/sergiu
I wish this were true... I don't think a second that it'll
work though as:
1) users will say that they cannot document if they don't
know what it does
2) once users know what it does, they usually go away
3) users don't like to document anymore than developers like it
:)
Your points are generally true, but when you talk of "users" you're not
necessarily talking of these users. I'm talking about people like me
who would have loved it if someone had just told them this or that
little tidbit of information, and gladly contribute it, especially when
it's in the context of the document
But I like the idea... and would be game to try
it... if
someone else implements it... (all my time is currently used
for the 1.0
release)
The only reason I haven't already made a start of it is that I haven't
found an HTML DOM parser. Is there one in the myriad of libraries that
come with XWiki?
1:03 a.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] RE: Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
Hi Uwe,
I think the easiest way right now for you to get those rights and the right
interface (the 1.0, not the old one which is still default on the farm)
would be to give us the address of the XWiki you are using so that we can
give it a look and help you a bit more effectively.
I am ok to do that, I will have some time tomorrow if you need a hand to
switch to the new skin and start doing some basic stuff.
On the "philosophical" side, I would say that XWiki's gut compared with
most
other wikis lie in the fact that you can create cookie cutters
and you do not need to cut all your cookies by hand.
A successful app is therefore first an application that has a well-defined
aim (ie, "I want to use a wiki as a contact manager in my company") and then
one which builds on the tools and interface provided by XWiki to achieve
this aim more effectively than a traditional wiki would.
What does the object model provides you with? Basically, a way to automate
template duplication and modification. XWiki lets you separate form and
content, a bit like the distinction between html and css. You can let the
actual content to end-users and take care of the layout.
You can create elements that will operate on specific subsets (eg, only a
given value in the pages of a given space) to provide users with effective
ways to browse through content: for instance, a search searching only for
elements in FAQ objects in the FAQ space, or only in the content of answers
field and not in the content of questions field for instance, which would be
impossible with a standard wiki. Currently, learning how to do so depends on
the availability of existing code... I think we can progressively change
this together.
As regards the documentation, right now it depends on user like you and me,
who have the time and motivation to document new things as they come by
them. I am not sure any "general framework" or whatever would be that useful
here. It is more about everybody taking small, incremental steps, say 5
minutes a day to improve a page, add useful comments to the wiki and so on.
I have started trying to do that, adding a FAQ, an application page, a
reference and so on when I could.
Hopefully if the wiki way paradigm holds any truth we should end up with an
amazing, Wikipedia-like database of our own that would tell all the secrets
of XWiki. My take is, let's give it a try and we'll see what happens next
:-)
Guillaume
PS: I do not mean to say that the killer app discussed before is not a good
idea, only that (as I think Brian made the point earlier) it is easier to
spare 5 minutes than 5 hours to work on XWiki.org...
On 05/04/07, Sergiu Dumitriu <sergiu.dumitriu(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Well said!
You can ask the developers for assistance whenever you have difficulties
understanding something.
Sergiu
On 4/5/07, Oova < ping.scan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
--
http://wikibc.blogspot.com/
Guys,
I must be another breed, I barely follow you, 'these' users and 'those'
users, automatically generated comment pages for users to fill it out,
etc..... I am just lost or too old fashioned.
My humble opinion is as follows. In house building as in software, if
you
want to enable somebody else to build an application (house) you give
them a
description, what kind of particular applications (houses) you
especially
are qualified to help building FASTER and BETTER than usual (Benefits
overview and tools to gain those benefits). You also write, what kind of
skill set might be useful to take advantage of the tools your provide.
Then
you provide the architecture (blueprint, ....) and explain what kind of
interfaces (for walls, windows, plumbing, roofing,...) you created to
enable
others to build. To expedite the break-in you give some sample
applications
illustrating how the architecture, interfaces and tools helped gain the
benefits for some use cases. And I am sorry, no offense, you do not ask
the
engineer who designed the software kit/ housing builder kit do document
it,
otherwise it becomes a kit from highly skilled engineers for other
highly
skilled engineers written in a highly specialized technise language,
which
the target audience might not speak. You normally ask a guinea pig out
of
the targeted audience to try to document, what it understands and let it
build at least one application (house) using the tools provided. And you
nurture the guinea pig with enough food, encouragement and help, so the
snowball effect making the whole target audience aware of your great
stuff
can start and you as the engineer can go back cranking out the next
great SW
and tool for even better applications and houses. Making sense? Any
agreement?
I am a guinea pig, I am eager to use Xwiki, because for some reason, I
think
XWiki is a great concept (don't let me go into the 'Crossing the chasm
modeling, or the 4 steps of the epiphany', both great models of how to
establish innovation in the market place successfully and go beyond the
innovator's initial excitement). But you need to let the targeted
audience
pick-up the momentum.
Enough Philosophy, if there is any agreement on what I said before, let
me,
Guillaume and other 'users' spread the word in a lower level technise.
To
enable us we need to understand
- targeted user (groups)
- architecture
- concept of object model and API
- guts (and not only nice webpages) of successful applications of the
XWiki
(or is the XWikis main purpose to create nice looking webpages? I did
not
think so)
Uwe
THOMAS, BRIAN M (ATTSI) wrote:
not
--
http://purl.org/net/sergiu
--
You receive this message as a subscriber of the xwiki-users(a)objectweb.orgmailing list.
To unsubscribe: mailto:xwiki-users-unsubscribe@objectweb.org
For general help: mailto:sympa@objectweb.org?subject=help
ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/wws
I wish this were true... I don't think a second that it'll
work though as:
1) users will say that they cannot document if they don't
know what it does
2) once users know what it does, they usually go away
3) users don't like to document anymore than developers like it
:)
Your points are generally true, but when you talk of "users" you're necessarily talking of these users. I'm
talking about people like me
who would have loved it if someone had just told them this or that
little tidbit of information, and gladly contribute it, especially
when
it's in the context of the document
that
But I like the idea... and would be game to try
it... if
someone else implements it... (all my time is currently used
for the 1.0
release)
The only reason I haven't already made a start of it is that I haven't
found an HTML DOM parser. Is there one in the myriad of libraries come with XWiki?
5:16 a.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] RE: Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
Guillaume Lerouge wrote:
Hi Uwe,
I think the easiest way right now for you to get those rights and the
right
interface (the 1.0, not the old one which is still default on the farm)
would be to give us the address of the XWiki you are using so that we can
give it a look and help you a bit more effectively.
I am ok to do that, I will have some time tomorrow if you need a hand to
switch to the new skin and start doing some basic stuff.
>Guillaume, I am excited about your help if I just knew what exactly are
you
helping with?
On the "philosophical" side, I would say that XWiki's gut compared with
most
other wikis lie in the fact that you can create cookie cutters
and you do not need to cut all your cookies by hand.
A successful app is therefore first an application that has a well-defined
aim (ie, "I want to use a wiki as a contact manager in my company") and
then
one which builds on the tools and interface provided by XWiki to achieve
this aim more effectively than a traditional wiki would.
What does the object model provides you with? Basically, a way to automate
template duplication and modification. XWiki lets you separate form and
content, a bit like the distinction between html and css. You can let the
actual content to end-users and take care of the layout.
You can create elements that will operate on specific subsets (eg, only a
given value in the pages of a given space) to provide users with effective
ways to browse through content: for instance, a search searching only for
elements in FAQ objects in the FAQ space, or only in the content of
answers
field and not in the content of questions field for instance, which would
be
impossible with a standard wiki. Currently, learning how to do so depends
on
the availability of existing code... I think we can progressively change
this together.
--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Xwiki.com-API-stability-and-Class-Object-model-tf3524…
Sent from the XWiki- Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
thanks for the introduction, we need to get some
crisp description out,
elevator speech like, let's pick up our idea of a use case page on the
wiki idea page, I'd like to defer any discussion about that to the idea
page, if yo don't mind.
As regards the documentation, right now it depends on user like you and
me,
who have the time and motivation to document new things as they come by
them.
> See that is what I can't really agree
with. I am still an engineer and
> think in concepts. I am not going to spend much time on figuring out how
> to put a nail in the beam with what hammer by asking the carpenter how
> he does it or worse try it myself WITHOUT asking the architect, how the
> house should be build and what this particular hammer or nail creates
> in terms of benefits. If any hammer or nail is good then fine too.
> Making sense?
The object/date model for the main constructs $doc, $xwiki,
$context and
others are critical and key objects as I understand and should be
explained first including their methods.
I am not sure any "general framework" or whatever would be that useful
here. It is more about everybody taking small, incremental steps, say 5
minutes a day to improve a page, add useful comments to the wiki and so
on.
> I agree that for incremental additions you
create incremental
> descriptions, I am at the root, I am looking at the API doc and see a
> lot of words w/o clear concept. If I start documenting this
> incrementally, I will delete as many of my comments as I add because I
> have to learn it the hard way and have incremental light bulbs coming
> on. I like a bigger light bulb in the beginning in more efficient way
> much better by having some time with one of the star archtects amongs
> the users/developers to make substantial progress.
I have started trying to do that, adding a FAQ, an application page, a
reference and so on when I could.
Hopefully if the wiki way paradigm holds any truth we should end up with
an
amazing, Wikipedia-like database of our own that would tell all the
secrets
of XWiki. My take is, let's give it a try and we'll see what happens next
:-)
Guillaume
PS: I do not mean to say that the killer app discussed before is not a
good
idea, only that (as I think Brian made the point earlier) it is easier to
spare 5 minutes than 5 hours to work on XWiki.org...
On 05/04/07, Sergiu Dumitriu <sergiu.dumitriu(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Well said!
You can ask the developers for assistance whenever you have difficulties
understanding something.
Sergiu
On 4/5/07, Oova < ping.scan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
--
http://purl.org/net/sergiu
--
You receive this message as a subscriber of the
xwiki-users(a)objectweb.orgmailing list.
To unsubscribe: mailto:xwiki-users-unsubscribe@objectweb.org
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--
http://wikibc.blogspot.com/
--
You receive this message as a subscriber of the xwiki-users(a)objectweb.org
mailing list.
To unsubscribe: mailto:xwiki-users-unsubscribe@objectweb.org
For general help: mailto:sympa@objectweb.org?subject=help
ObjectWeb mailing lists service home page: http://www.objectweb.org/wws
Guys,
I must be another breed, I barely follow you, 'these' users and 'those'
users, automatically generated comment pages for users to fill it out,
etc..... I am just lost or too old fashioned.
My humble opinion is as follows. In house building as in software, if
you
want to enable somebody else to build an application (house) you give
them a
description, what kind of particular applications (houses) you
especially
are qualified to help building FASTER and BETTER than usual (Benefits
overview and tools to gain those benefits). You also write, what kind
of
skill set might be useful to take advantage of the tools your provide.
Then
you provide the architecture (blueprint, ....) and explain what kind of
interfaces (for walls, windows, plumbing, roofing,...) you created to
enable
others to build. To expedite the break-in you give some sample
applications
illustrating how the architecture, interfaces and tools helped gain the
benefits for some use cases. And I am sorry, no offense, you do not ask
the
engineer who designed the software kit/ housing builder kit do document
it,
otherwise it becomes a kit from highly skilled engineers for other
highly
skilled engineers written in a highly specialized technise language,
which
the target audience might not speak. You normally ask a guinea pig out
of
the targeted audience to try to document, what it understands and let
it
build at least one application (house) using the
tools provided. And
you
nurture the guinea pig with enough food, encouragement and help, so the
snowball effect making the whole target audience aware of your great
stuff
can start and you as the engineer can go back cranking out the next
great SW
and tool for even better applications and houses. Making sense? Any
agreement?
I am a guinea pig, I am eager to use Xwiki, because for some reason, I
think
XWiki is a great concept (don't let me go into the 'Crossing the chasm
modeling, or the 4 steps of the epiphany', both great models of how to
establish innovation in the market place successfully and go beyond the
innovator's initial excitement). But you need to let the targeted
audience
pick-up the momentum.
Enough Philosophy, if there is any agreement on what I said before, let
me,
Guillaume and other 'users' spread the word in a lower level technise.
To
enable us we need to understand
- targeted user (groups)
- architecture
- concept of object model and API
- guts (and not only nice webpages) of successful applications of the
XWiki
(or is the XWikis main purpose to create nice looking webpages? I did
not
think so)
Uwe
THOMAS, BRIAN M (ATTSI) wrote:
haven't
>
> I wish this were true... I don't think a second that it'll
> work though as:
> 1) users will say that they cannot document if they don't
> know what it does
> 2) once users know what it does, they usually go away
> 3) users don't like to document anymore than developers like it
>
> :)
Your points are generally true, but when you talk of "users" you're
not
necessarily talking of these users. I'm
talking about people like me
who would have loved it if someone had just told them this or that
little tidbit of information, and gladly contribute it, especially
when
> it's in the context of the document
>
>> But I like the idea... and would be game to try it... if
>> someone else implements it... (all my time is currently used
>> for the 1.0
>> release)
>>
>
> The only reason I haven't already made a start of it is that I found an
HTML DOM parser. Is there one in the myriad of libraries
that
come with XWiki?
8:28 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] RE: Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
I am entirely sympathetic to your situation, having been pretty much in
the same situation about a year ago. And I believe that I agree
strongly with your feelings and outlook, and I'm personally very eager
to help those who are not as deeply experienced to get up the learning
curve faster than I did and, as you say (if I understand you correctly)
to pass it on to a yet larger and less-experienced group of users.
As to 'these' users and 'those' users, I was responding to Vincent's
skepticism about people actually coming in and annotating the JavaDoc
pages. Of course they wouldn't if they didn't understand them, but I
would love to do this in the hope of improving the adoption of XWiki,
knowing exactly what would be needed to prevent others (like me, at
least) from going through the pain I went through. My explanations may
still be opaque to others, but once they get through it they can share
what they've learned. At any rate, providing the opportunity for
experienced users of the APIs to annotate the Javadocs without
disturbing the actual source code would allow people like me to share
that knowledge in the most appropriate place - right alongside the
official documentation.
My feeling was that Vincent was not adequately acknowledging the new
class[es] of users that tools of this nature enable - those who can now
create end-user applications without needing server access, and even
those (like me) who stand more or less in the gap between the
application builders and the raw system interfaces, who like to make the
tools more robust and easier to use.
brain[sic]
-----Original Message-----
From: Oova [mailto:ping.scan@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 2:48 PM
To: xwiki-users(a)objectweb.org
Subject: [xwiki-users] RE: Xwiki.com API stability and
Class/Object model
Guys,
I must be another breed, I barely follow you, 'these' users
and 'those'
users, automatically generated comment pages for users to
fill it out, etc..... I am just lost or too old fashioned.
My humble opinion is as follows. In house building as in
software, if you want to enable somebody else to build an
application (house) you give them a description, what kind of
particular applications (houses) you especially are qualified
to help building FASTER and BETTER than usual (Benefits
overview and tools to gain those benefits). You also write,
what kind of skill set might be useful to take advantage of
the tools your provide. Then you provide the architecture
(blueprint, ....) and explain what kind of interfaces (for
walls, windows, plumbing, roofing,...) you created to enable
others to build. To expedite the break-in you give some
sample applications illustrating how the architecture,
interfaces and tools helped gain the benefits for some use
cases. And I am sorry, no offense, you do not ask the
engineer who designed the software kit/ housing builder kit
do document it, otherwise it becomes a kit from highly
skilled engineers for other highly skilled engineers written
in a highly specialized technise language, which the target
audience might not speak. You normally ask a guinea pig out
of the targeted audience to try to document, what it
understands and let it build at least one application (house)
using the tools provided. And you nurture the guinea pig with
enough food, encouragement and help, so the snowball effect
making the whole target audience aware of your great stuff
can start and you as the engineer can go back cranking out
the next great SW and tool for even better applications and
houses. Making sense? Any agreement?
I am a guinea pig, I am eager to use Xwiki, because for some
reason, I think XWiki is a great concept (don't let me go
into the 'Crossing the chasm modeling, or the 4 steps of the
epiphany', both great models of how to establish innovation
in the market place successfully and go beyond the
innovator's initial excitement). But you need to let the
targeted audience pick-up the momentum.
Enough Philosophy, if there is any agreement on what I said
before, let me, Guillaume and other 'users' spread the word
in a lower level technise. To enable us we need to understand
- targeted user (groups)
- architecture
- concept of object model and API
- guts (and not only nice webpages) of successful
applications of the XWiki (or is the XWikis main purpose to
create nice looking webpages? I did not think so)
Uwe
THOMAS, BRIAN M (ATTSI) wrote:
people like
>
> I wish this were true... I don't think a second that it'll work
> though as:
> 1) users will say that they cannot document if they don't
know what
it does
2) once users know what it does, they usually go away
3) users don't like to document anymore than developers like it
:)
Your points are generally true, but when you talk of "users" you're
not necessarily talking of these users. I'm talking about me who would have loved it if someone had just
told them
this or that
little tidbit of information, and gladly
contribute it, especially
when it's in the context of the document
that I haven't
But I like the idea... and would be game to try
it... if someone
else implements it... (all my time is currently used for the 1.0
release)
The only reason I haven't already made a start of it is found an HTML DOM parser. Is there one in the
myriad of libraries
that come with XWiki?
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8:55 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] RE: Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
On Apr 6, 2007, at 8:28 PM, THOMAS, BRIAN M ((ATTSI)) wrote:
I am entirely sympathetic to your situation, having
been pretty
much in
the same situation about a year ago. And I believe that I agree
strongly with your feelings and outlook, and I'm personally very eager
to help those who are not as deeply experienced to get up the learning
curve faster than I did and, as you say (if I understand you
correctly)
to pass it on to a yet larger and less-experienced group of users.
As to 'these' users and 'those' users, I was responding to Vincent's
skepticism about people actually coming in and annotating the JavaDoc
pages. Of course they wouldn't if they didn't understand them, but I
would love to do this in the hope of improving the adoption of XWiki,
knowing exactly what would be needed to prevent others (like me, at
least) from going through the pain I went through. My explanations
may
still be opaque to others, but once they get through it they can share
what they've learned. At any rate, providing the opportunity for
experienced users of the APIs to annotate the Javadocs without
disturbing the actual source code would allow people like me to share
that knowledge in the most appropriate place - right alongside the
official documentation.
My feeling was that Vincent was not adequately acknowledging the new
class[es] of users that tools of this nature enable - those who can
now
create end-user applications without needing server access, and even
those (like me) who stand more or less in the gap between the
application builders and the raw system interfaces, who like to
make the
tools more robust and easier to use.
Just for the record, I'm very happy to try out new ways of doing
things :-) So, go for it!
Thanks
-Vincent
-----Original
Message-----
From: Oova [mailto:ping.scan@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 2:48 PM
To: xwiki-users(a)objectweb.org
Subject: [xwiki-users] RE: Xwiki.com API stability and
Class/Object model
Guys,
I must be another breed, I barely follow you, 'these' users
and 'those'
users, automatically generated comment pages for users to
fill it out, etc..... I am just lost or too old fashioned.
My humble opinion is as follows. In house building as in
software, if you want to enable somebody else to build an
application (house) you give them a description, what kind of
particular applications (houses) you especially are qualified
to help building FASTER and BETTER than usual (Benefits
overview and tools to gain those benefits). You also write,
what kind of skill set might be useful to take advantage of
the tools your provide. Then you provide the architecture
(blueprint, ....) and explain what kind of interfaces (for
walls, windows, plumbing, roofing,...) you created to enable
others to build. To expedite the break-in you give some
sample applications illustrating how the architecture,
interfaces and tools helped gain the benefits for some use
cases. And I am sorry, no offense, you do not ask the
engineer who designed the software kit/ housing builder kit
do document it, otherwise it becomes a kit from highly
skilled engineers for other highly skilled engineers written
in a highly specialized technise language, which the target
audience might not speak. You normally ask a guinea pig out
of the targeted audience to try to document, what it
understands and let it build at least one application (house)
using the tools provided. And you nurture the guinea pig with
enough food, encouragement and help, so the snowball effect
making the whole target audience aware of your great stuff
can start and you as the engineer can go back cranking out
the next great SW and tool for even better applications and
houses. Making sense? Any agreement?
I am a guinea pig, I am eager to use Xwiki, because for some
reason, I think XWiki is a great concept (don't let me go
into the 'Crossing the chasm modeling, or the 4 steps of the
epiphany', both great models of how to establish innovation
in the market place successfully and go beyond the
innovator's initial excitement). But you need to let the
targeted audience pick-up the momentum.
Enough Philosophy, if there is any agreement on what I said
before, let me, Guillaume and other 'users' spread the word
in a lower level technise. To enable us we need to understand
- targeted user (groups)
- architecture
- concept of object model and API
- guts (and not only nice webpages) of successful
applications of the XWiki (or is the XWikis main purpose to
create nice looking webpages? I did not think so)
Uwe
THOMAS, BRIAN M (ATTSI) wrote:
people like
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>
> I wish this were true... I don't think a second that it'll work
> though as:
> 1) users will say that they cannot document if they don't
know what
it does
2) once users know what it does, they usually go away
3) users don't like to document anymore than developers like it
:)
Your points are generally true, but when you talk of "users" you're
not necessarily talking of these users. I'm talking about me who would have loved it if someone had just
told them
this or that
little tidbit of information, and gladly
contribute it, especially
when it's in the context of the document
that I haven't
But I like the idea... and would be game to try
it... if someone
else implements it... (all my time is currently used for the 1.0
release)
The only reason I haven't already made a start of it is found an HTML DOM parser. Is there one in the
myriad of libraries
that come with XWiki?
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5 Apr
5 Apr
11:15 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
On 4/4/07, THOMAS, BRIAN M (ATTSI) <bt0008(a)att.com> wrote:
The only reason I haven't already made a start of it is that I haven't
found an HTML DOM parser. Is there one in the myriad of libraries that
come with XWiki?
What do you mean by "HTML DOM parser"? You can use any DOM parser as long
as
it's well formed XML, and it should be.
--
http://purl.org/net/sergiu
11:28 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
Ah. I may be confusing some other efforts I made at getting that to
work, which were plain HTML from an internal site. The dom4j parser
choked on that, understandably.
I have already done a successful parse of an XML-based internal web
site, as I mentioned earlier, to get our organizational structure and
display it with related information from the wiki and other sites, which
was fairly impressive, since it showed a tree of people whose names were
shown as links to their XWiki profiles, with the presence indicator
image as a link to open a session with them in our enterprise IM
service.
It occurs to me that this could actually be done via XSLT, and the user
comments could just be added as XWiki objects in the page.
I don't know anything yet about XSLT, but I think I'm going to learn
pretty quickly...
brain[sic]
________________________________
From: Sergiu Dumitriu [mailto:sergiu.dumitriu@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 4:16 PM
To: xwiki-users(a)objectweb.org
Subject: Re: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and
Class/Object model
On 4/4/07, THOMAS, BRIAN M (ATTSI) <bt0008(a)att.com> wrote:
The only reason I haven't already made a start of it is
that I haven't
found an HTML DOM parser. Is there one in the myriad of
libraries that
come with XWiki?
What do you mean by "HTML DOM parser"? You can use any DOM
parser as long as it's well formed XML, and it should be.
--
http://purl.org/net/sergiu
6 Apr
6 Apr
10:21 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
________________________________
From: Sergiu Dumitriu [mailto:sergiu.dumitriu@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 4:16 PM
To: xwiki-users(a)objectweb.org
Subject: Re: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and
Class/Object model
On 4/4/07, THOMAS, BRIAN M (ATTSI) <bt0008(a)att.com> wrote:
The only reason I haven't already made a start of it is
that I haven't
found an HTML DOM parser. Is there one in the myriad of
libraries that
come with XWiki?
What do you mean by "HTML DOM parser"? You can use any DOM
parser as long as it's well formed XML, and it should be.
--
http://purl.org/net/sergiu
Unfortunately, it isn't:
Nested exception: org.xml.sax.SAXParseException: The declaration for the
entity "HTML.Version" must end with '>'.
This exception is thrown regardless of which of the javadoc pages I
use...
12 Apr
12 Apr
4:07 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
On Apr 06, THOMAS, BRIAN M (ATTSI) wrote :
From: Sergiu Dumitriu
[mailto:sergiu.dumitriu@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 4:16 PM
To: xwiki-users(a)objectweb.org
Subject: Re: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and
Class/Object model
On 4/4/07, THOMAS, BRIAN M (ATTSI) <bt0008(a)att.com> wrote:
The only reason I haven't already made a start of it is
that I haven't
found an HTML DOM parser. Is there one in the myriad of
libraries that
come with XWiki?
What do you mean by "HTML DOM parser"? You can use any DOM
parser as long as it's well formed XML, and it should be.
--
http://purl.org/net/sergiu
Unfortunately, it isn't:
Nested exception: org.xml.sax.SAXParseException: The declaration for the
entity "HTML.Version" must end with '>'.
This exception is thrown regardless of which of the javadoc pages I
use...
Just my two cents:
you might have a look at TagSoup (http://home.ccil.org/~cowan/XML/tagsoup/) or
JTidy (http://jtidy.sourceforge.net/) which I think is distributed
already as part of XWiki, those should help you when dealing with non
xml-valid HTML.
Pablo
7:03 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] HTML DOM parser? (was: Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model)
Pablo:
Yes, I found the JTidy package (as an option to another one in XWiki's
libs), but the HTML parser's constructor seemed to depend on some other
stuff that I don't think I can synthesize; I think there's yet another
one in the XWiki distribution, but I haven't looked at it yet (low
priority for now).
Of course, I can always use Javascript, yuck (not that I dislike it per
se, but due to the hegemonious lusts of a certain corporation - the bane
of my professional existence, which I am ashamed to say is from my own
country - cross-browser compatibility rates just above un-anaesthetized
oral surgery on my personal list of preferences)...
I will investigate TagSoup, though; thanks.
brain[sic]
-----Original Message-----
From: Pablo Oliveira [mailto:pablo.oliveira@enst.fr]
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 9:07 AM
To: xwiki-users(a)objectweb.org
Subject: Re: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and
Class/Object model
On Apr 06, THOMAS, BRIAN M (ATTSI) wrote :
From: Sergiu Dumitriu
[mailto:sergiu.dumitriu@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 4:16 PM
To: xwiki-users(a)objectweb.org
Subject: Re: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and
Class/Object
model
On 4/4/07, THOMAS, BRIAN M (ATTSI) <bt0008(a)att.com> wrote:
The only reason I haven't already made a start
of it is that I
haven't
found an HTML DOM parser. Is there one in the
myriad of libraries
that
come with XWiki?
What do you mean by "HTML DOM parser"? You can use any
DOM parser as
long as it's well formed XML, and it should
be.
--
http://purl.org/net/sergiu
Unfortunately, it isn't:
Nested exception: org.xml.sax.SAXParseException: The
declaration for
the entity "HTML.Version" must end with
'>'.
This exception is thrown regardless of which of the javadoc pages I
use...
Just my two cents:
you might have a look at TagSoup
(http://home.ccil.org/~cowan/XML/tagsoup/) or JTidy
(http://jtidy.sourceforge.net/) which I think is distributed
already as part of XWiki, those should help you when dealing
with non xml-valid HTML.
Pablo
5 Apr
5 Apr
9:03 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
vmassol wrote:
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View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Xwiki.com-API-stability-and-Class-Object-model-tf3524…
Sent from the XWiki- Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>> - How to I archive the code I created? Any export/import mechanism
>> available?
>
> Have you checked the documentation on xwiki.org? :-)
>
> I'm not giving you the answer as I want to ensure this is something
> easy to find out. If you don't find it easily please let us know
> where you were expecting it so that we can improve the documentation!
>
> I was looking for import/export with search function and found one
> relevant document from you
> http://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/AdminGuide/ImportExport which
> doesn't
> apply to users of the farm. What did I miss?
ok so you found the page, cool. Why do you say it doesn't apply to
users of the farm?
Thanks
-Vincent
I am confused: are you asking me to do all the installation steps in
order to archive my own code? That is how I understand the guide. I
expected an import/export function, which allows me to archive/recreate
content I wrote independent of what database, development environment etc.
is used.
Are you saying I gave to recreate all that short of hosting it to dump my
code in it?
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9:42 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
On Apr 5, 2007, at 9:03 PM, Oova wrote:
vmassol wrote:
>>>> - How to I archive the code I created? Any export/import mechanism
>>>> available?
>>>
>>> Have you checked the documentation on xwiki.org? :-)
>>>
>>> I'm not giving you the answer as I want to ensure this is something
>>> easy to find out. If you don't find it easily please let us know
>>> where you were expecting it so that we can improve the
>>> documentation!
>>>
>>> I was looking for import/export with search function and found one
>>> relevant document from you
>>> http://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/AdminGuide/ImportExport which
>>> doesn't
>>> apply to users of the farm. What did I miss?
>
> ok so you found the page, cool. Why do you say it doesn't apply to
> users of the farm?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
> I am confused: are you asking me to do all the installation steps in
> order to archive my own code? That is how I understand the guide. I
> expected an import/export function, which allows me to archive/
> recreate
> content I wrote independent of what database, development
> environment etc.
> is used.
> Are you saying I gave to recreate all that short of hosting it to
> dump my
> code in it?
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if your xwiki on xwiki.com is
using the XWiki 1.0 skin (named xwiki10b1 on xwiki.com as it's using
version 1.0 B3) then you should see the import/export feature
(provided you're admin of your site - This is where I'm not entirely
sure. I don't know if you get admin rights on the farm).
Thanks
-Vincent
10:14 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
I seem to be the admin of my site, since i was the creator and have all other
admin menu items available but have no menu item for import/export. Any way
you can think of getting me those rights?
uwe
vmassol wrote:
On Apr 5, 2007, at 9:03 PM, Oova wrote:
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View this message in context:
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Sent from the XWiki- Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
vmassol wrote:
>>>> - How to I archive the code I created? Any export/import mechanism
>>>> available?
>>>
>>> Have you checked the documentation on xwiki.org? :-)
>>>
>>> I'm not giving you the answer as I want to ensure this is something
>>> easy to find out. If you don't find it easily please let us know
>>> where you were expecting it so that we can improve the
>>> documentation!
>>>
>>> I was looking for import/export with search function and found one
>>> relevant document from you
>>> http://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/AdminGuide/ImportExport which
>>> doesn't
>>> apply to users of the farm. What did I miss?
>
> ok so you found the page, cool. Why do you say it doesn't apply to
> users of the farm?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
> I am confused: are you asking me to do all the installation steps in
> order to archive my own code? That is how I understand the guide. I
> expected an import/export function, which allows me to archive/
> recreate
> content I wrote independent of what database, development
> environment etc.
> is used.
> Are you saying I gave to recreate all that short of hosting it to
> dump my
> code in it?
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if your xwiki on xwiki.com is
using the XWiki 1.0 skin (named xwiki10b1 on xwiki.com as it's using
version 1.0 B3) then you should see the import/export feature
(provided you're admin of your site - This is where I'm not entirely
sure. I don't know if you get admin rights on the farm).
Thanks
-Vincent
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11:26 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
Hi Uwe,
On 4/5/07, Vincent Massol <vincent(a)massol.net> wrote:
On Apr 5, 2007, at 9:03 PM, Oova wrote:
Go to:
http://YOURWIKI.xwiki.com/xwiki/bin/edit/XWiki/XWikiPreferences?xpage=edito…
(you can find it in the menu somewhere too as More Options ->Global
Preferences I think)
Select the Skin object and change the skin field to xwiki10b1.
OR, at your choice, just visit:
http://YOURWIKI.xwiki.com/xwiki/bin/view/Main?skin=xwiki10b1
Regards,
Catalin
vmassol wrote:
>>>> - How to I archive the code I created? Any export/import mechanism
>>>> available?
>>>
>>> Have you checked the documentation on xwiki.org? :-)
>>>
>>> I'm not giving you the answer as I want to ensure this is something
>>> easy to find out. If you don't find it easily please let us know
>>> where you were expecting it so that we can improve the
>>> documentation!
>>>
>>> I was looking for import/export with search function and found one
>>> relevant document from you
>>> http://www.xwiki.org/xwiki/bin/view/AdminGuide/ImportExport which
>>> doesn't
>>> apply to users of the farm. What did I miss?
>
> ok so you found the page, cool. Why do you say it doesn't apply to
> users of the farm?
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
> I am confused: are you asking me to do all the installation steps in
> order to archive my own code? That is how I understand the guide. I
> expected an import/export function, which allows me to archive/
> recreate
> content I wrote independent of what database, development
> environment etc.
> is used.
> Are you saying I gave to recreate all that short of hosting it to
> dump my
> code in it?
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if your xwiki on xwiki.com is
using the XWiki 1.0 skin (named xwiki10b1 on xwiki.com as it's using
version 1.0 B3) then you should see the import/export feature
(provided you're admin of your site - This is where I'm not entirely
sure. I don't know if you get admin rights on the farm).
6:23 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
Anyboy, could you please help me with the below one? Thanks in advance
- How do I use the property "Database List
Class", it seems very
powerful in
creating dynamic lists of values, references to other objects etc.
but I am
unable to decipher how to use it.
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11:12 p.m.
New subject: [xwiki-users] Xwiki.com API stability and Class/Object model
Hi,
A DatabaseList consists of a query that returns the entries in the list.
1. The query is written using HQL (Hibernate Query Language), a SQL-like
language. I can't explain the data model it works with, but you can search
the various pages where it is used (search for documents containing
$xwiki.search or searchDocuments).
2. If it returns one value per result, it will be used as the list entry
value and displayed text. If it returns two or more values per result, the
first part is used as the value, while the second one is used as the
displayed text.
3. You can configure the list, specifying how it is displayed (drop-down,
radio buttons, checkboxes), whether it allows single or multiple selection,
the site of the drop-down, and some other properties.
Hope this helps a bit.
On 4/5/07, Oova <ping.scan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Anyboy, could you please help me with the below one? Thanks in advance
Sergiu
--
http://purl.org/net/sergiu
- How do I use the property "Database List
Class", it seems very
powerful in
creating dynamic lists of values, references to other objects etc.
but I am
unable to decipher how to use it.
6367
days inactive
6375
days old
25 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
Catalin Hritcu -
Guillaume Lerouge -
Oova -
Pablo Oliveira -
Sergiu Dumitriu -
THOMAS, BRIAN M (ATTSI) -
Vincent Massol