Re: [xwiki-devs] [Idea] Deprecate terminal pages

I can't imagine how I would attempt to explain a terminal (but not

it's going to die soon) page to someone who doesn't know the insides of the sausage factory. Every page is like a file, and it's also like a folder because it can

pages inside of it, except for the ones that can't... So +1 that users should never see/create/edit these weird pages which cannot have children. Thanks, Caleb On 27/11/15 17:10, vincent(a)massol.net wrote: > > > > > > On 27 Nov 2015 at 17:06:17, Guillaume Lerouge (guillaume(a)xwiki.com > (mailto:guillaume@xwiki.com)) wrote: > > Hi Vincent, >> >> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:53 PM, vincent(a)massol.net >> wrote: >> >> >>> >>> >>> On 27 Nov 2015 at 16:42:39, Guillaume Lerouge (guillaume(a)xwiki.com >>> (mailto: >>> guillaume(a)xwiki.com)) wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Hi Marius, >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 12:40 PM, Marius Dumitru Florea < >>>>>> mariusdumitru.florea(a)xwiki.com&gt; wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 4:55 PM, Guillaume Lerouge >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Devs, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> after trying XE 7.4 snapshot some more, I kept asking myself what >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> was the >>>>> >>>>>> point of even allowing terminal pages to exists. I couldn't see a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> good >>>>> >>>>>> reason why any given page would *need* to be terminal, whereas it >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> poses >>>>> >>>>>> some issues: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - There is no visual distinction between terminal pages and >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> nested >>> >>>> pages >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in the interface (besides "WebHome" in the URL, which would be >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> cleaner >>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>>>> remove) >>>>>>>> - We're planning to make it possible to reference a nested page >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> in >>> >>>> wiki >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> syntax without having to write "WebHome" in it >>>>>>>> - When creating a new page from a terminal page, you're creating >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> a >>> >>>> sibling instead of a child page, which breaks the user >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> expectation >>> >>>> (and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> breadcrumb) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - For AWM applications, data/content pages are created as >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> terminal >>> >>>> pages, which makes it impossible to add further content >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> underneath >>> >>>> them >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> the future (say, sub-tasks that would go as child pages of tasks) >>>>>>>> - To my knowledge, there is no easy way to transform a terminal >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> page >>> >>>> into a nested page should the need arise later on >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> See >>>>>>> >>>>>> http://lists.xwiki.org/pipermail/users/2015-November/031558.html >>> >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks. I understand it's fine to have terminal pages, but are they >>>>>> >>>>> really >>>>> >>>>>> *needed*? >>>>>> >>>>>> My feeling is that keeping this concept generates complexity for no >>>>>> >>>>> obvious >>>>> >>>>>> benefit. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What really generates complexity ATM is the difference between the

>>>>> (Nested Pages) and the Model (Nested Spaces). I’d like to start a >>>>> >>>> design to >>> >>>> explore what options we have to remove the concept of Spaces in the >>>>> >>>> model >>> >>>> and only have pages. I have the feeling it’s going to be tough to not >>>>> >>>> break >>> >>>> everything but need to explore it to know our options. >>>>> >>>>> I feel that terminal pages are already well hidden in the UI so I’m >>>>> not >>>>> sure why you think we should remove it completely from the UI. Why

>>>>> >>>> you >>> >>>> fear that it’s too advanced for advanced users? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> 2 reasons: >>>> >>>> *1/ Practical reason:* as a simple user, if I go to a terminal page

>>>> create a page from there, I will create a sibling to the current page >>>> instead of a child to the current page. I will not know why it

>>>> like this, nor will I have the ability to change it. >>>> >>> >>> Right now users can already create sibling pages when they click the

>>> button on a page. >>> >>> It would be easy to add a small warning when you’re on a terminal page >>> and >>> you click Add to mention that this is a terminal page that cannot have >>> children. >>> >>> >> Right, a warning to simple users that something different than what

>> expect is going to happen for a reason that they cannot fathom to begin >> with since they don't even know about terminal pages in the first

>> It's a bit like telling them: >> >> *- XWiki: You can't create a child page from here!* >> *- User: But, why?* >> *- XWiki: Because!* >> *- User: uh...* >> >> It only compounds the problem. >> >> *2/ Philosophical reason:* why keep something useless if we could as

>>> >>>> remove it? That would be an application of Ockham's razor principle

>>>> >>> you >>> >>>> will. >>>> >>> >>> It’s not useless. As I mentioned this is still in the model and we

>>> support it. This means that we need a way for advanced users to be

>>> to >>> create those pages (and using a script to do so is worse than having a >>> nice >>> UI for it). >>> >>> >> I have the feeling we're running in circles here. Just because terminal >> pages still exist in the model doesn't tell me *why* they're still

>> for the future. >> >> Do you have specific use cases in mind where it's *better* for an user >> (or >> a script!) to create a terminal page rather than a nested page? Does it >> lead to performance improvements of some sort? Does it prevent

>> compatibility issues that would be caused by switching all pages to >> nested >> pages? Any other *benefits* from having terminal pages? >> > > I could list use cases (like some cases where it doesn’t make sense to > have nested pages - like WebPreferences for example - Actually check a > filesystem, you can’t create a subfile inside a file after all, I think > users understand that) but anyway it doesn’t matter. The simple fact

> we have terminal pages in lots of extensions require that the user be

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