12 Nov
2014
12 Nov
'14
2:15 p.m.
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:26 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
* I don't agree with the rules defined at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428%28v=vs.85%…
and I certainly wouldn't want to have that link in our documentation.
* I don't agree that we want to vote a standard just for a SPECIFIC
language. I would prefer to find some rules that apply to all the
languages.
This being said:
* Each sentence should start with the first letter of the word in uppercase
(Sentence cap). This means that LiveTable actions like 'delete', etc. needs
to be fixed.
* The rule about first and last doesn't sound very well to me (Title cap),
and anyway it means we would need to do it manually, so it's a case by case
scenario. What I would do instead is: instead of capitalizing random words
in headings, I would capitalize just entity names (Wiki, Space, Page,
Comment, etc.), examples:
- 'Add Page' - add is the first word in the sentence it's uppercase; page
is an entity is capitalized
but even this 'rule' can be misleading and confusing.
So actually here we are not discussing Capitalization, but 'Title cap'
rule, since Capitalization is definitely a no.
I would prefer a 'Sentence cap' rule with some exceptions for entities as
described above.
Note that I also agree that Sentence Case is the safest and (AFAIK)
cross-language rule we could enforce.
On a technical note, it is also probably the only rule we *can* do
automatically, with CSS:
p:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;
}
So, if it is an option, I would rather we do that instead of (or at least
additionally to) the proposed Microsoft (manual) guidelines.
Thanks,
Eduard
Thanks,
Caty
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 1:08 PM, vincent(a)massol.net <vincent(a)massol.net>
wrote:
about
uppercase.
doesn't
to
(
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).a…
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On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:55:52, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com(mailto:
enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
> The whole side-discussion started because we can not agree to those
rules
before we
agree how we do it: manually or automatically. If we agree on
automatically, then we can not, implicitly, agree on those rules.
The fact that it’s automatic or manual doesn’t change a single thing the rule.
This is about the English language and how it’s applied to web pages,
nothing to do with XWiki specifically. Do we want to follow the English
language best practices, yes or no? I was expecting it to be a no brainer
and everyone saying yes of course.
I’m asking a last time: do you agree about following the Capitalization
rules defined at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).a…
for the English language and make that our rule
and publish it?
I personally agree about it.
Once we agree about it then:
- We will publish it at dev.xwiki.org and on l10n.xwiki.org too
- When translators write translations in English they’ll need to follow
it
(if they don’t it’ll be called a bug that will
need to be fixed)
- We can optionally (if possible, ATM it’s not) decide to automatically
implement it using CSS
Thanks
-Vincent
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb246428(v=vs.85).a…
Thanks,
Eduard
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:52 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
wrote:
> Let’s backtrack!
>
> The question I asked was NOT how do it!
>
> I asked: Do we agree about following the Capitalization rules defined
at
>
and
translation's
> make that our own rule ad publish it.
>
> Please try to answer that question.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> On 12 Nov 2014 at 11:41:21, Eduard Moraru (enygma2002(a)gmail.com
(mailto:
> > enygma2002(a)gmail.com)) wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Specially when it comes to labels, it should not be the > > > concern to apply capitalization.
If we do that, we are bound to
have
a
couple
> lot
> > of places that are not consistent. Instead, we just need to apply a
CSS
> > rule that we all agree on and all the
labels will be consistent.
> >
> > Take for example labels that are all upper case (in the Colibri
skin,
as
> > Caty mentioned). It would abviously
have been nonsense to start
modifying
> > all translations and setting them to
upper case, but for new
translations
> > (or some of the modified ones) to just
(inevitably) forget to do
that. We
> > > don`t need this kind of extra maintenance headaches.
> > >
> > > Regarding CPU work for upper-casing (capitalizing actually) a of
need
> > strings, I think we can all agree that
it is negligible, otherwise
CSS
> > itself is useless.
> >
> > +1 for applying CSS capitalization as much as possible for labels,
button
> > > labels, titles, column labels/headers, etc. Of course, we still to
the
> > come up with a clear list of cases
where this can be applied and
what CSS
> > classes we can leverage to do that. I`m
still quite sure there will
still
> > be a lot of places which are
application-dependent and which we can
not
> > > catch with CSS.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Eduard
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) <
> > > valicac(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > The thing is that if we do it with CSS, we just apply a rule in
> > skin
> > > > and automatically we have all the translations fixed. With your
> > solution we
> > > > would need to 'deprecate' lots of translations and just use
the
new
>
format.
> > > Is a lengthy process.
> > >
> > > If we do it from Translations, yes we can apply it just for one
> language,
> > > thing we cannot do with CSS, which applies the change globally.
> > > The problem with changing just English is that according to
Emanuel,
> > all
> > > > the other languages will look 'less professional'.
> > > >
> > > > Just for the record, in Colibri labels and buttons were > >
>
> > > Thanks,
> > > Caty
> > >
> > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 12:03 PM, vincent(a)massol.net
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Caty,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 12 Nov 2014 at 10:58:36, Ecaterina Moraru (Valica) (
> valicac(a)gmail.com
> > > > (mailto:valicac@gmail.com)) wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Should we do the capitalization from CSS or also when writing
the
> > > > > > Translations?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would like it to be through CSS. This way if someone
> like
it,
> > > > can
> > > > > create a custom skin and reset it: initial, uppercase, etc.
Also
> note
> > > > that
> > > > > certain languages (german for example) have meaning problems
> > > capitalizing
> > > > > all the words.
> > > > >
> > > > > In your example:
> > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > > > this cannot be done with CSS. We either capitalize all the
words or
> > > > none,
> > > > > > we cannot skip one.
> > > > >
> > > > > I’d be -1 for CSS since:
> > > > >
> > > > > * extra CPU work not required
> > > > > * doesn’t work as you mentioned for “Reset to Default"
> > > > > * it’s not something optional that the user should be allowed
>
change!
> > > > If they really want they’ll just need to override the
translations
> > > (similar
> > > > use case than if they wish to change some wording)
> > > >
> > > > Note that the rule I’m proposing is *ONLY* for English. I’m not
> proposing
> > > > anything for other languages (each language has its own rules
> regarding
> > > > Capitalization).
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > -Vincent
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Caty
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Manuel Smeria wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here's my +1.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I always thought capitalized buttons look more professional
:)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > Manuel
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 10:21 AM, vincent(a)massol.net
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi devs,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Andrea created an issue about capitalizing button
labels > >
> > > > > http://jira.xwiki.org/browse/XWIKI-11265) and I think
it’s
a
> good
> > > > idea
> > > > > > > that we decide some rules about capitalization
indeed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I’ve found this document from MSDN:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > >
>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I propose to adopt this document’s content as our
rule
for
> >
> > Capitalization
> > > > > > > and to document that in our dev best practices on
> dev.xwiki.org.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Example of labels:
> > > > > > > * “Add comment” —> “Add Comment”
> > > > > > > * “Reset to default” —> “Reset to Default”
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > WDYT?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > -Vincent
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